Would Brian Flores really be all that bad??

[Chopper0080]

Flores is two steps from Vance Joseph to me. In fact, I may like HC Vance more than Flores because I feel both of their defensive schemes are overrated at best.

 

[BirdGangThing]

Flores is two steps from Vance Joseph to me. In fact, I may like HC Vance more than Flores because I feel both of their defensive schemes are overrated at best.

Kinda like you're just arguing for arguments sake at this point. Idk if you just don't like Flores or if you just had your heart set on someone else but either way you're really dug in so no use in this whole back and forth continuing - especially if you somehow have Vance Joseph and Brian Flores on the same level? It's all good man

 

[BritCard]

A GM doesn't shop the starting QB without coach approval.

Determining your starting QB is not "micro managing" it is the expectation of a HC. The idea that you think the media could ask a HC why started a specific QB and the response being that it was the OC decision is realistic is hilarious.

Supporting a young QB looks very different than coddling. Again, Tua went from draft bust to decent QB with a coaching change away from Flores.

Dude, they tried to pay him to tank. You think they are getting his say so to make roster moves?

 

[BritCard]

24-25 record as a HC, the team had the same record by his replacement with inconsistency at QB, and their young QB played significantly better after Flores left. Folks need to raise their standards.

Folks need to contextualise the situation he was put in.

 

[BritCard]

Everything about that team stayed the same or got better after Flores was fired. That is the impact he had. The worst part of the team was the DC who was a leftover from Flores's staff.

Apart from their wins...

 

[Chopper0080]

Apart from their wins...

How do you factor in suing the league you want to coach in? Or fumbling a top 10 QB? The team being arguably better once he left?

What is the argument for Flores that doesn't come with a bunch of excuses?

 

[oaken1]

In 2021 Tua was suffering a rib injury and then a fractured finger. He played considerably better towards the end of the season where they finished 8-1. Unlike Kliffy, Flo's teams finish strong down the stretch. Give me some of that!

Flo....??

are we setting up...

FloMo?

 

[gimpy]

Who else do we know that has fumbled a top 10 QB?

 

[Cheesebeef]

A GM doesn't shop the starting QB without coach approval.

Determining your starting QB is not "micro managing" it is the expectation of a HC. The idea that you think the media could ask a HC why started a specific QB and the response being that it was the OC decision is realistic is hilarious.

Supporting a young QB looks very different than coddling. Again, Tua went from draft bust to decent QB with a coaching change away from Flores.

Even though I think Flores was a problem there, you weaken your argument by making a specious one that ignores Tua didn’t just get better coaching. He also got MUCH better weapons this year another season under Waddles belt AND Tyreke Hill, who’s one of the best WR of all time.

 

[Chopper0080]

Even though I think Flores was a problem there, you weaken your argument by making a specious one that ignores Tua didn’t just get better coaching. He also got MUCH better weapons this year another season under Waddles belt AND Tyreke Hill, who’s one of the best WR of all time.

How far do we need to delve in? Were those players added because McDaniel is a better communicator than Flores? Did he have a better relationship with the front office than Flores? Did they spend FA money on Kyle Van Noy, Byron Jones, Shaq Lawson, and Emmanuel Ogbah instead of offensive skill pieces at Flores request?

If GM incompetence is the excuse, you could make a lot of the same arguments for Kliff. Bad roster, same as Kliff. Dinged up young QB, same as Kliff. Owner issue, same for Kliff. In the end, both dudes weren't able to get the job done. I think Flores could be an ok coach but all of the things he couldn't overcome in Miami are pretty much present in Arizona. What makes me believe he can overcome them now?

 

[RON_IN_OC]

Flores is two steps from Vance Joseph to me. In fact, I may like HC Vance more than Flores because I feel both of their defensive schemes are overrated at best.

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[dreamcastrocks]

How far do we need to delve in? Were those players added because McDaniel is a better communicator than Flores? Did he have a better relationship with the front office than Flores? Did they spend FA money on Kyle Van Noy, Byron Jones, Shaq Lawson, and Emmanuel Ogbah instead of offensive skill pieces at Flores request?

If GM incompetence is the excuse, you could make a lot of the same arguments for Kliff. Bad roster, same as Kliff. Dinged up young QB, same as Kliff. Owner issue, same for Kliff. In the end, both dudes weren't able to get the job done. I think Flores could be an ok coach but all of the things he couldn't overcome in Miami are pretty much present in Arizona. What makes me believe he can overcome them now?

I get all of that. With that said, he actively had an organization that was TRYING to lose. It has been proven to be the case as well.

 

[Chopper0080]

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Essentially, if both are a net neutral in terms of defensive scheme, I at least have Vance who hasn't botched a top 10 QB, and isn't suing the league.

 

[BritCard]

How do you factor in suing the league you want to coach in? Or fumbling a top 10 QB? The team being arguably better once he left?

What is the argument for Flores that doesn't come with a bunch of excuses?

Their better with Chubb, Tyreek, Conner Williams, Mostert, Wilson, and Armstead? I'm shocked. Yet they still had a worse record than the last 2 years.

The argument is he's a great leader and coach and won games with poor rosters.

 

[Chopper0080]

I get all of that. With that said, he actively had an organization that was TRYING to lose. It has been proven to be the case as well.

Is it any different than what Houston has tried to do? Or the Bears? Were the Cardinals TRYING to win all of their remaining games? This happens all the time especially when a team starts 0-7.

 

[BritCard]

Essentially, if both are a net neutral in terms of defensive scheme, I at least have Vance who hasn't botched a top 10 QB, and isn't suing the league.

Rightly suing the league. What should he do? Just let teams crap all over black coaches?

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Is it any different than what Houston has tried to do? Or the Bears? Were the Cardinals TRYING to win all of their remaining games? This happens all the time especially when a team starts 0-7.

NFL surely thought so. You didn't see them taking draft picks away from those teams...

 

[Chopper0080]

Rightly suing the league. What should he do? Just let teams crap all over black coaches?

The Rooney Rule FORCES teams to interview black coaching candidates. The unintended consequence is that sometimes those interviews are to fulfill the rule. I understand not liking the unintended consequence of the rule, but it is what it is. I don't think it is "crapping" on black coaches.

 

[Chopper0080]

NFL surely thought so. You didn't see them taking draft picks away from those teams...

I think an owner paying a HC to lose games vs encouraging a HC to lose games are why the two situations are different, but they arrive at pretty much the same place.

 

[Cheesebeef]

How far do we need to delve in? Were those players added because McDaniel is a better communicator than Flores? Did he have a better relationship with the front office than Flores? Did they spend FA money on Kyle Van Noy, Byron Jones, Shaq Lawson, and Emmanuel Ogbah instead of offensive skill pieces at Flores request?

If GM incompetence is the excuse, you could make a lot of the same arguments for Kliff. Bad roster, same as Kliff. Dinged up young QB, same as Kliff. Owner issue, same for Kliff. In the end, both dudes weren't able to get the job done. I think Flores could be an ok coach but all of the things he couldn't overcome in Miami are pretty much present in Arizona. What makes me believe he can overcome them now?

Jesus. You could just admit you were wrong in the oversimplification of your argument and that weapons also made a difference.

Responses like the above are so annoying. It’s Britcard kind of crap.

 

[Chopper0080]

Their better with Chubb, Tyreek, Conner Williams, Mostert, Wilson, and Armstead? I'm shocked. Yet they still had a worse record than the last 2 years.

The argument is he's a great leader and coach and won games with poor rosters.

I have no way to quantify Flores's great leadership. Young players didn't significantly get better while he was there. His QB didn't get significantly better when he was there. I don't feel the franchise became more buttoned up when he was there.

As I have said, Flores would face similar issues in Arizona as he did in Miami and I don't see any reason to believe he will do things any differently. (in fact I think he has said as much)

 

[Zalixar]

I'll say no to Flores just for the overall drama alone. Ain't nobody got time for that.

But why no Steichen for real?

Edit: I'll take him as DC, not HC.

 

[Jetstream Green]

As a head coach I like Flores because there is no denying what he was able to do at Miami, which for me was impressive and appears to attain the accountability and the ability to get the most out of his players. Yes, he might not be the best coach for Kyler Murray but that is something we really don't know yet, but in the long term it's the Arizona 'Cardinals' and not the Arizona 'Kyler Murrays' and it's not like Kyler is having him as the OC or his QB coach, and lastly him and the GM would be on the same page and that is beneficial

 

[Chopper0080]

Jesus. You could just admit you were wrong in the simplification of your argument and that weapons also made a difference.

Responses like the above are so annoying. It’s Britcard kind of crap.

Your argument is that the Dolphins went from being ranked 22nd in points and 25th in yards at then end of a coaches three season span to being ranked 11th in points and 6th in yards in the first season of a new HC implemented a new offense, and it is because of Tyreek Hill and 2nd year Jaylen Waddle more than a new HC getting the most out of his young QB.

Ok. I don't know where it states that I don't think adding Tyreek helped. It all works together. I just give McDaniel credit that he was able to convince the front office to add play makers and Flores was apparently not able to. McDaniel was able to change the convo on Tua from him being a bust to being a good young QB. I did not see anything that Flores did in his time in Miami that makes me think that he was going to do the same with Tua.

 

[RON_IN_OC]

I have no way to quantify Flores's great leadership. Young players didn't significantly get better while he was there. His QB didn't get significantly better when he was there. I don't feel the franchise became more buttoned up when he was there.

As I have said, Flores would face similar issues in Arizona as he did in Miami and I don't see any reason to believe he will do things any differently. (in fact I think he has said as much)

I'd say starting out 1-7, but ending 8-1 is a pretty good indication of leadership. Go back and look at all the headlines of internal turmoil with Flores and the owner (Tua vs Herbert stuff), yet the team never quit, despite everything going on around them and rallied to just miss the playoffs.