Suns @ Clippers Wednesday game thread, October 23rd, 2024: Season Opener

[Hoop Head]

Yeah there were bright spots but Durant really worries me even with him scoring 25 points. We have to find a better way to close games and quarters without using him as the primary scorer.

It feels like there's some Ayton-esque excuses made for him based on the box score. He needs to play smarter and more structured.

 

[Covert Rain]

He can score 25 because he's selfish. Efficiency is more important than his point total.

He was one of the top scorers in the NBA last year because he is one of the best players PERIOD. It didn't stop Book from taking his shots either or Grayson leading the NBA in 3's. He also averaged 5 assists per game. So, not it's not simply because he is selfish. Only starters Beal and Allen had a higher EFG than Durant last year.

 

[Hoop Head]

He was one of the top scorers in the NBA last year because he is one of the best players PERIOD. It didn't stop Book from taking his shots either or Grayson leading the NBA in 3's. He also averaged 5 assists per game. So, not it's not simply because he is selfish.

Grayson leading the league in 3pt shooting is overstated. Who led the 2 years prior? It's nice for a role player but KD's ball hog tendencies don't really effect it.

Again, you're overstating KD's play. He had 0 assists and 7 turnovers while shooting 5 shots more than anyone else. He's got tunnel vision in the 4th and you can say whatever you want to fluff him up but you can't disprove that.

 

[Covert Rain]

Grayson leading the league in 3pt shooting is overstated. Who led the 2 years prior? It's nice for a role player but KD's ball hog tendencies don't really effect it.

Again, you're overstating KD's play. He had 0 assists and 7 turnovers while shooting 5 shots more than anyone else. He's got tunnel vision in the 4th and you can say whatever you want to fluff him up but you can't disprove that.

Leading the league is "overstated"? No it's not. You don't lead the league the entire season and say it's "overstated". With the amount of shots KD and Book take it was a huge accomplishment.

I am not talking about one game. I am talking his play in general. He likely wouldn't have taken 5 more shots in that game if it wasn't for Booker fouling out. So, yes, just like one game doesn't mean all was positive, it doesn't mean all was negative either. Generalizing him as selfish is ridiculous. He is a go to player on this team by design.

 

[CardNots]

Too early for worry…

 

[Hoop Head]

Leading the league is "overstated"? No it's not. You don't lead the league the entire season and say it's "overstated". With the amount of shots KD and Book take it was a huge accomplishment.

I am not talking about one game. I am talking his play in general. He likely wouldn't have taken 5 more shots in that game if it wasn't for Booker fouling out. So, yes, just like one game doesn't mean all was positive, it doesn't mean all was negative either. Generalizing him as selfish is ridiculous. He is a go to player on this team by design.

We've seen 1 game under Bud and you're ready to say it's by design. Ok.


You can't name who led the league before Grayson says how over inflated that is here. It's not a negative but it's not an MVP, All-Star, or award. It's nice to have but how many playoff games did that win us?

Book fouled out with like 3-4 minutes to go. Beal took over in the OT period. I'm highly skeptical KD and Book would have had an even number of attempts had Book not fouled out.

Almost all of his turnovers were on bad movement also. They weren't bad passes. He rarely looks for anyone else. It's quite comical how you're shifting things to hype him up. He isn't Basketball Jesus, he has flaws and it's fine to point them out. I didn't say he needs to be traded or anything but you're jumping to deflect from his negatives, which did happen and you don't have a real defense for.

 

[Hoop Head]

Too early for worry…

I don't think anyone is. It's game 1 and a game thread. Addressing what happened shouldn't be an issue yet here we are.

 

[Covert Rain]

We've seen 1 game under Bud and you're ready to say it's by design. Ok.


You can't name who led the league before Grayson says how over inflated that is here. It's not a negative but it's not an MVP, All-Star, or award. It's nice to have but how many playoff games did that win us?

Book fouled out with like 3-4 minutes to go. Beal took over in the OT period. I'm highly skeptical KD and Book would have had an even number of attempts had Book not fouled out.

Almost all of his turnovers were on bad movement also. They weren't bad passes. He rarely looks for anyone else. It's quite comical how you're shifting things to hype him up. He isn't Basketball Jesus, he has flaws and it's fine to point them out. I didn't say he needs to be traded or anything but you're jumping to deflect from his negatives, which did happen and you don't have a real defense for.

Huh? The offense is built around the big 3 taking the most shots. On any given night it will be Book, Durant or Beal with the most shots. Yes....that's by design. Since when has that changed? Can you show me ANYTHING from Bud that says that will be different this year?

You are acting like 5 shots is the grand canyon. That's 1 extra shot through 5 periods of play. That's NOTHING.

Turnovers is something we have all acknowledged and brought up repeatedly since last year. 5 assists per game last year is nothing to sneeze at. There are NBA point guards who don't average 5 assists per game. Considering how this teams is built offensively to make a generalization he is selfish is ridiculous.

Nobody said he was basketball Jesus. Nobody said you are suggesting we trade him. Nobody said he doesn't have a turnover problem. Please don't put words into my mouth just to try and make a point.

 

[Hoop Head]

Huh? The offense is built around the big 3 taking the most shots. On any given night it will be Book, Durant or Beal with the most shots. Yes....that's by design. Since when has that changed? Can you show me ANYTHING from Bud that says that will be different this year?

You are acting like 5 shots is the grand canyon. That's 1 extra shot through 5 periods of play. That's NOTHING.

Turnovers is something we have all acknowledged and brought up repeatedly since last year. 5 assists per game last year is nothing to sneeze at. There are NBA point guards who don't average 5 assists per game. Considering how this teams is built offensively to make a generalization he is selfish is ridiculous.

Nobody said he was basketball Jesus. Nobody said you are suggesting we trade him. Nobody said he doesn't have a turnover problem. Please don't put words into my mouth just to try and make a point.

I point out how he played and you keep going to the past. 5 is 30% more than anyone else and Beal carried OT. He should have had more shots since he was the best Sun all game. Can you point to anything he did last night to say he deserved or earned 30% more shots than Beal? I don't think anyone can. You're defending him by pointing the past. It doesn't make sense. I didn't put words in your mouth, you're the one mentioning the past for some reason. I don't get it. Why is it not ok to point out the negatives and if they continue it won't be sustainable for success?

 

[Covert Rain]

I point out how he played and you keep going to the past. 5 is 30% more than anyone else and Beal carried OT. He should have had more shots since he was the best Sun all game. Can you point to anything he did last night to say he deserved or earned 30% more shots than Beal? I don't think anyone can. You're defending him by pointing the past. It doesn't make sense. I didn't put words in your mouth, you're the one mentioning the past for some reason. I don't get it. Why is it not ok to point out the negatives and if they continue it won't be sustainable for success?

Didn't you just say that it's only one game? So, why are you calling him selfish based on one game, 5 extra shots when Book fouled out? Especially, since he is a go to player on the team? Yes I am bringing up the past because I don't think one game makes a player selfish. 5 shots extra is an average of 1 extra per period is not selfish. I don't think playing within a system where he is a designated scorer is selfish. I don't think averaging 5 assists per game is selfish. You don't want me to bring up his career but you want to deem him selfish based on 1 game. In this system Beal is a typically the 3rd option if KD or Book don't have a shot.

Makes zero sense. If we start to see a pattern over a long period? OK.

Also, you were inferring that I thought he was a basketball Jesus, and that I was acting like you were trading him. "Words in my mouth" is a figure of speech. You inferred a ton of stuff I never said. Pointing out facts and his stats is not "shifting things to hype him up". We had all seen and brought up the turnovers. That is not hyping him either.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Durant had 7 turnovers and zero assists, that is hard to pull off.

There was a lot of ball movement from the team that was encouraging but it was still freezing when it got to Durant’s hands.

I noticed the same.

 

[Covert Rain]

I noticed the same.

General speaking it seemed like every time that Tyus gave up the ball early we fell into old habits.

 

[Hoop Head]

Didn't you just say that it's only one game? So, why are you calling him selfish based on one game, 5 extra shots when Book fouled out? Especially, since he is a go to player on the team? Yes I am bringing up the past because I don't think one game makes a player selfish. 5 shots extra is an average of 1 extra per period is not selfish. I don't think playing within a system where he is a designated scorer is selfish. I don't think averaging 5 assists per game is selfish. You don't want me to bring up his career but you want to deem him selfish based on 1 game. In this system Beal is a typically the 3rd option if KD or Book don't have a shot.

Makes zero sense. If we start to see a pattern over a long period? OK.

Also, you were inferring that I thought he was a basketball Jesus, and that I was acting like you were trading him. "Words in my mouth" is a figure of speech. You inferred a ton of stuff I never said. Pointing out facts and his stats is not "shifting things to hype him up". We had all seen and brought up the turnovers. That is not hyping him either.

How many times do I have to say it's an observation of 1 game? Quit taking it more than that. A player can be selfish in 1 game. To say otherwise ignores reality. You're trying to make my observations broader than they are.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I noticed the same.

I did too. KD needs to remember he has pg's now.

 

[Covert Rain]

How many times do I have to say it's an observation of 1 game?

I believe that’s the point.

 

[Hoop Head]

I believe that’s the point.

Could have fooled me since YOU keep going beyond that. Quit being so combative.

 

[Phrazbit]

It is one game, but, that end of regulation shot aside, it was not an encouraging game for Durant.

Everyone else on the roster was trying to buy into the new, ball movement, fast paced, "unpredictable" offense, hell, Booker was doing it to a fault, he was passing up on a lot of easy shots he'd normally take.

Durant however played a style totally removed from the rest of the team. Virtually every time the ball found him, it froze, he went into his ISO dribble routine and it would end in either a shot or a turnover.

If this is going to work he needs to buy in... even if it isn't ALL the time, some ISO plays here and there are to be expected, but if this team is going to contend for anything meaningful he cannot play like he did last night. He cannot be a separate entity from the rest of the team.

 

[Covert Rain]

Could have fooled me since YOU keep going beyond that. Quit being so combative.

I was being partially sarcastic and the point escapes but sure. Moving on.

 

[Covert Rain]

It is one game, but, that end of regulation shot aside, it was not an encouraging game for Durant.

Everyone else on the roster was trying to buy into the new, ball movement, fast paced, "unpredictable" offense, hell, Booker was doing it to a fault, he was passing up on a lot of easy shots he'd normally take.

Durant however played a style totally removed from the rest of the team. Virtually every time the ball found him, it froze, he went into his ISO dribble routine and it would end in either a shot or a turnover.

If this is going to work he needs to buy in... even if it isn't ALL the time, some ISO plays here and there are to be expected, but if this team is going to contend for anything meaningful he cannot play like he did last night. He cannot be a separate entity from the rest of the team.

One of my main concerns with the team overall is how easy it would be to fall into old habits because of coach Bud's 5 out system. It's literally designed to have everyone start out at the 3-point line. So, guys are supposed to run to 5 different spots at the 3-point line instead of having designated "position spots" to create the spacing. Then guys are supposed to screen off each other to set guys free or it's supposed to create dribble penetration opportunities.

It's very easy in this system for guys to just stand around if they are not doing the screening and it sure sounds like it's conducive to the Big 3 trying to dribble penetrate which looks very "Iso Like" at times. However, I am not sure if it's a complete carbon copy of Bud's last two stops or how much they are encouraging our PG's to start the dribble penetration.

I watched guys stand around when KD and Book touched the ball. Beal seemed to be moving more. I also watched our PGs give up the ball unnecessarily to one of the big 3 as they crossed halfcourt. This isn't just on the big 3. Other guys on the team need to buy into it as well, move and not acquiesce to the big 3 every time or it's not going to work.

In about 10 games if we are still seeing way too much of the same thing? Two coaching staffs and systems later? I am going to point the finger more at the players this time.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

He can score 25 because he's selfish. Efficiency is more important than his point total.

Why is he selfish? His number one job on the offense is to score as he is the best pure scorer on our team. Despite that he has averaged 5 assists per game with the Suns.

I would also like to point out that he played 44 minutes and had a grand total of 17 shots in that time. In no world is that a lot of shots in that amount of minutes.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

How many times do I have to say it's an observation of 1 game? Quit taking it more than that. A player can be selfish in 1 game. To say otherwise ignores reality. You're trying to make my observations broader than they are.

Oh I don't know because you didn't specify that he was selfish in that game, but a generalization that he is selfish. Maybe make that more clear if you don't want the push back.

 

[Superbone]

Grayson Allen getting the Clippers turnover to seal the win.

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I couldn't tell if Grayson first tipped the ball before it got to Harden or Harden mishandled it and then Grayson tipped the ball.

 

[Superbone]

I didn't watch the game but just from following the box score and reading the game thread, I think you're being generous. I'd have called them wannabe pretenders, a full step below pretender class. Fortunately, it's just one game and we could come out like world beaters tomorrow night.

I'm not sure how you can make that assessment without watching the game. I think your Durant disdain is showing a bit.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'm not sure how you can make that assessment without watching the game. I think your Durant disdain is showing a bit.

Well, on the Durant subject, I think you're mistaken. I did watch every single game last season and I had the same concerns then. I think he's still a great player but I don't trust his decision making in critical moments or when facing a physical defender. Between dribbling the ball off his feet or stepping out of bounds or forcing up shots even when the double and triple team comes his way, I think we're better off with him playing a more complementary and more team-oriented role at this stage of his career.

As for not trusting my assessment of what we looked like in that game, that's certainly fair. But that's why I pointed out my lack of first hand knowledge of the situation. I don't think too highly of that Clippers roster (especially without Kawhi) and we were about as healthy as we could hope to be this season so it was disheartening to know that we struggled to just barely beat them. So when someone said that judging just by that game that we looked like pretenders, I upped the ante while acknowledging it was just one game.

And I don't believe I have "disdain for KD". I've long been a supporter of his going back to his year at Texas. I am disdainful (understatement of the century) of the trade we made for him but that's something else.

 

[Covert Rain]

Well, on the Durant subject, I think you're mistaken. I did watch every single game last season and I had the same concerns then. I think he's still a great player but I don't trust his decision making in critical moments or when facing a physical defender. Between dribbling the ball off his feet or stepping out of bounds or forcing up shots even when the double and triple team comes his way, I think we're better off with him playing a more complementary and more team-oriented role at this stage of his career.

As for not trusting my assessment of what we looked like in that game, that's certainly fair. But that's why I pointed out my lack of first hand knowledge of the situation. I don't think too highly of that Clippers roster (especially without Kawhi) and we were about as healthy as we could hope to be this season so it was disheartening to know that we struggled to just barely beat them. So when someone said that judging just by that game that we looked like pretenders, I upped the ante while acknowledging it was just one game.

And I don't believe I have "disdain for KD". I've long been a supporter of his going back to his year at Texas. I am disdainful (understatement of the century) of the trade we made for him but that's something else.

Hold on to that disdain for org decisions. If the guys on the radio are correct, it sounds like both sides are interested in Durant finishing his career here. They passed on the one-year deal this year knowing that Durant would be eligible for more money later. Plus, with the increase in the cap that there was a possibility of him finishing his career here and signing one last contract. If I remember correctly that would mean that would be towards the end of Books contract. So, IMO, if they blow it up that will include moving Booker right around the time Durant is done. Naturally, Durant can be fickle and decide not to resign here, or this could go south and we move him before.