2013 Summer League

[AzStevenCal]

I guess to each his own, but these stat arguments do not do much for me. I like to evaluate players based upon their performance on the court. Even Ryan McDonough said analytics is a supplement to scouting. If we are talking about Markieff Morris as a PF, IMO, he is nothing more than a role player on a good team.

I agree, that looks to be his ceiling right now. I don't know that I would write him off though. I watch a lot of Suns games with the opposing announcing broadcasting team and I think you'd be surprised what they say about him. The ones that talked about him at all offered very positive reviews. They's say things like "Phoenix really got lucky with this pick" or "Markieff is coming off a surprisingly solid rookie effort". He had enough good games as a rookie to make certain teams (the ones he shined against) think very highly of him. IOW, he's shown some potential. My concern has been his lack of consistency. In his off games, of which there were far too many, he was horrible.

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

I agree, that looks to be his ceiling right now. I don't know that I would write him off though. I watch a lot of Suns games with the opposing announcing broadcasting team and I think you'd be surprised what they say about him. The ones that talked about him at all offered very positive reviews. They's say things like "Phoenix really got lucky with this pick" or "Markieff is coming off a surprisingly solid rookie effort". He had enough good games as a rookie to make certain teams (the ones he shined against) think very highly of him. IOW, he's shown some potential. My concern has been his lack of consistency. In his off games, of which there were far too many, he was horrible.

Steve

There is always room for hope, but I do not view Markieff as having a high ceiling because he lacks the arm length and height to play inside with stronger and taller PFs. He struggles to get his shot off in traffic underneath the basket. This raises a red flag for me.

I was reading an article that just only slightly more than 24% of first round draft picks get their rookie contracts extended during a tracking period. See link below.

It's sort of depressing how many players do not reach their potential. Hmm. I wonder which rookies on the Suns will get their contracts extended.

http://hoopshype.com/articles/hoopshype/which-players-on-rookie-deals-got-extensions

 

[tobiazz]

I still contend that McLemore will be a very good player, but his dribbling and driving ability are soooo bad right now. Once everyone realizes what he is and what he isn't, he'll be a spot up shooter with an unblockable, high percentage jumper who plays pretty good defense. Then, maybe he can improve from there. His vertical is incredible and his shooting history suggests he'll shoot well once he is acclimated. He's not one of those 70% FT shooters that happened to have a high FG% his one year of college.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Its funny about Markieff. For some it always comes back to arm length. If his wingspan was 2-3 inches more, and everything else was the same, would perceptions be different?

To me Markieff seems plenty big to play pf. When you look at him on the court with others, he doesn't seem small or undersized compared to others at all.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Its funny about Markieff. For some it always comes back to arm length. If his wingspan was 2-3 inches more, and everything else was the same, would perceptions be different?

To me Markieff seems plenty big to play pf. When you look at him on the court with others, he doesn't seem small or undersized compared to others at all.

No, he doesn't and he doesn't shy away from contact either. When he's on his game he mixes it up well down low.

Steve

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I'm not sure if you're trolling accidentally or intentionally. How about we added some context. The format I'm using for all categories is stat/36 min except TS%. 2013 first and then 2012.

PTS 25.3 23.1
OR 3.4 3.3
DR 7.7 8.2
Assists 2.6 2.3
TO 3.4 2.8
Steals 1.3 0.9
BS 1.7 2.3
TS% 69.2 52.2

I'll let the numbers speak for themselves.

They do speak for themselves, but again prove that your observation of Morris's performance being "not even close" as ridiculous. Even extrapolating and assuming he continues his production, at best you can argue he's performing at the same rate.

You're assuming that he can play these minutes as well, completely ignoring the fact that he's been averaging a foul every 3 and a half MINUTES, almost double his already awful rate, a whistle every 6.9 minutes.

Maybe you should get over your dislike of Morris.

Oh no, please don't start this. You going to call me a "hata" next? Morris was an awful pick by any standard, and you will find many on the board (including me) advocating the pick of Faried or Leonard (amusingly brought up by you earlier).

It was fairly obvious at the time that they were both superior options, and instead of getting a top young player, we got Morris, an undersized PF with a bad attitude, no defense and who hasn't shown any credible improvement. He could be a perfectly nice guy, but was a terrible pick, especially considering the two player drafted right after him who have proven to be much better.

It might improve your vision.

The irony. Do you wear special glasses when looking at stats that block out everything but PER? The same statistical measure that had Klay Thompson's performance last year between Josh McRoberts and Ben Gordon?

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I think he's judging Markieff mostly on the strength of his weakest performances and treating his better performances as outliers.

I'd say that is true of many of the players on the roster last year, Morris included. One good game, four bad. Two more good, five more bad. The lack of consistency was probably the number one hallmark of the 2012 team.

Plenty of players would show flashes and have random good games, but the NBA is littered with players who's light flickers on and off, and I can't trust guys like Morris who play well about a third of the time. Maybe his consistency will improve, but as an "older" young player with limited athleticism and size, I just don't see it.

Prove me wrong Markieff, prove me wrong! Would be as happy as anyone if he were a meaningful contributor.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'd say that is true of many of the players on the roster last year, Morris included. One good game, four bad. Two more good, five more bad. The lack of consistency was probably the number one hallmark of the 2012 team.

Plenty of players would show flashes and have random good games, but the NBA is littered with players who's light flickers on and off, and I can't trust guys like Morris who play well about a third of the time. Maybe his consistency will improve, but as an "older" young player with limited athleticism and size, I just don't see it.

Prove me wrong Markieff, prove me wrong! Would be as happy as anyone if he were a meaningful contributor.

For most younger players that inconsistency is usually linked to their outside shot. If their shot is on they are more focused and play with greater energy on both ends of the court and when it isn't falling they often look lost out there. I didn't really see it that way with Markieff which makes it difficult to judge what we really have in him. As I've said before, he seems like a smart player one game and an idiot the next. I'd be pretty happy with him if he seemed like a smart player every night. We screwed up not taking Leonard or Faried but he still has a chance to play to his draft slot if he can keep his head in the game.

Steve

 

[Sci Fi]

They do speak for themselves, but again prove that your observation of Morris's performance being "not even close" as ridiculous. Even extrapolating and assuming he continues his production, at best you can argue he's performing at the same rate.

You're assuming that he can play these minutes as well, completely ignoring the fact that he's been averaging a foul every 3 and a half MINUTES, almost double his already awful rate, a whistle every 6.9 minutes.



Oh no, please don't start this. You going to call me a "hata" next? Morris was an awful pick by any standard, and you will find many on the board (including me) advocating the pick of Faried or Leonard (amusingly brought up by you earlier).

It was fairly obvious at the time that they were both superior options, and instead of getting a top young player, we got Morris, an undersized PF with a bad attitude, no defense and who hasn't shown any credible improvement. He could be a perfectly nice guy, but was a terrible pick, especially considering the two player drafted right after him who have proven to be much better.



The irony. Do you wear special glasses when looking at stats that block out everything but PER? The same statistical measure that had Klay Thompson's performance last year between Josh McRoberts and Ben Gordon?

You really don't understand the significance of increasing ones TS% by 17 points do you?

 

[ASUCHRIS]

You really don't understand the significance of increasing ones TS% by 17 points do you?

You completely missed my point. YES, I understand that his TS% has increased by 17%. Viewed in a vaccum, that's encouraging! That being said, when you ignore every other aspect of his performance outside of TS%, that's classic cognitive dissonance.

If you're of the opinion that the only true value of evaluating players is TS%, there isn't much to talk about.

 

[elindholm]

You really don't understand the significance of increasing ones TS% by 17 points do you?

Do you think that's sustainable? It sure looks like a small-sample phenomenon to me. So once he misses a handful of threes and is back where he started, then what?

 

[sunsfan88]

Jonas Valaciunas isn't playing today...a shame cause it would have been interesting to see how the Suns defend a good big man like him.

 

[Sci Fi]

Do you think that's sustainable? It sure looks like a small-sample phenomenon to me. So once he misses a handful of threes and is back where he started, then what?

That's not really the question we're dealing with now is it? This is why I have so much trouble having internet discussions. People always change the subject. The comment was he's BEEN great for the 4 games. Been. Get it. Past tense. I didn't say he'w been great and he's going to be a star this year based on these four games.

Do I think it's sustainable. No, I don't but a more appropriate point to discuss might be something like this. Kieff is shooting a lot better this year. Why? Is his shot different. Is he shooting different shots. Is the offense different. Is it sustainable? But conversations like this can't be had because people like Chris insist that he hasn't improved even though he's shot a TS% better by 17 points with every other stat being roughly equal. He even went so far as to say he's been worse. How can one discuss things with an individual that obviously isn't really open to discussion? He says I'm missing his point. Not true. He DOESN'T HAVE ONE.

 

[Mainstreet]

Jonas Valaciunas isn't playing today...a shame cause it would have been interesting to see how the Suns defend a good big man like him.

Well the Suns have faced Leonard Meyers.

 

[sunsfan88]

If I hear Sam Mitchell tell the story of how he drafted Tucker one more time, I'm gonna hurt someone.

And now Tucker's barely 6'4 according to him? Lol

 

[Mainstreet]

Marshall not playing well early against Toronto today.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

People always change the subject.

Irony, again.

You said - "The difference between his play in SL this year versus last has been considerably better. It's not even close."

I've already proven based on virtually every measurable method that at best, his performance has been equal to last year. To say it's not even close is ridiculous. Your ONLY defense is to put your fingers in your ears and say "nah nah nah TS% is the only thing that matters" and refuse to consider everything else.

Not much of a discussion indeed.

I didn't say he'w been great and he's going to be a star this year based on these four games.

Who said you did? No need to be such a martyr.

Do I think it's sustainable. No, I don't but a more appropriate point to discuss might be something like this. Kieff is shooting a lot better this year. Why? Is his shot different. Is he shooting different shots. Is the offense different. Is it sustainable? But conversations like this can't be had because people like Chris insist that he hasn't improved even though he's shot a TS% better by 17 points with every other stat being roughly equal. He even went so far as to say he's been worse. How can one discuss things with an individual that obviously isn't really open to discussion? He says I'm missing his point. Not true. He DOESN'T HAVE ONE.

I heard something somewhere about Morris (I think Markieff?) playing fabulous in the summer league...something about his TS% improving by 17%!?!

I'm glad to participate in any Suns related discussion, but when your entire analysis is based on one stat, which can often be misleading, there sadly isn't much to talk about.

 

[Mainstreet]

Yada, yada, yada.

The both of you could be watching Archie Goodwin.

 

[sunsfan88]

Man I love Goodwin.

 

[AfroSuns]

Goodwin on fire!!

 

[Mainstreet]

Goodwin has 13 points in the 1st quarter.

 

[sunsfan88]

Yea I think I'm gonna buy a Goodwin jersey within a month or so. It should be really cheap now. I know he probably won't be playing well in the season for a few years but I love watching young players with so much potential develop

 

[sunsfan88]

Goodwin's gonna win SL MVP after we win the title! I'm calling it now!

 

[Mainstreet]

Marshall hits a 3 point shot. This is a chance for Marshall to settle the Suns down.

Christmas is doing his job shooting the ball.

 

[Mainstreet]

Babb not playing the defense I had hoped to see.