4 Cardinals who have exceeded expectations in 2022

[kerouac9]

This may be one of the worst posts regarding ILB play (other than pointing out Demario Davis) that I’ve ever seen.

Yeah. Any ILB conversations that don’t begin with Fred Warner are pretty stillborn.

Zaven Collins Year 2 has been Jordan Hicks But Tall. A useful player but not an impact guy so far.

 

[Jetstream Green]

If we had someone who knew how to draft, it would not really matter if we were drafting number 6 or number 16. Drafting at number 6 just makes Keim's flaw more obvious. Sure, drafting close or in the top 5 can really help with a competent GM, but a good GM drafting in the teens or even in the late twenties can build a great team... that is why winning franchises can keep winning

 

[bankybruce]

Zaven definitely, definitely made progress this year, which is good, because he under-achieved last year.

But he needs to take another step forward next year to live up to the his draft position, and to be part of the solution (as opposed to being part of the problem).

I agree with all of this except for the last line. He's played well enough that he's definitely not part of the problem. He's just not good enough yet to be a difference maker on defense, but if he takes the next jump next year, he could be that.

 

[bankybruce]

Yeah. Any ILB conversations that don’t begin with Fred Warner are pretty stillborn.

Zaven Collins Year 2 has been Jordan Hicks But Tall. A useful player but not an impact guy so far.

Exactly this! I posted a few weeks ago that his numbers were almost identical to Hicks at the same point last year, and he's still on pace to be exactly Jordan Hicks. The good news is that is who Hicks always had been, while Collins is still young and could get better.

If not, Collins could have a nice career if he's Hicks, but not good enough to have warrented a top 16 pick.

 

[Outerlimits]

Zaven definitely, definitely made progress this year, which is good, because he under-achieved last year.

But he needs to take another step forward next year to live up to the his draft position, and to be part of the solution (as opposed to being part of the problem).

This is true. His progress this year is encouraging.

Also next year we will be hoping Kyler in his 5th season on a quarter billion dollar contract will live up to his draft position and be part of the solution as opposed to being part of the problem.

 

[Proximo]

With Zaven it depends on which expectations you are going with - Expectations for when he was drafted or expectations for the start of this season.

If you are going by drafted expectations he is meeting them, if you go by what most peoples expectations were at the start of the season he is far exceeding them if we are honest.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

With Zaven it depends on which expectations you are going with - Expectations for when he was drafted or expectations for the start of this season.

If you are going by drafted expectations he is meeting them, if you go by what most peoples expectations were at the start of the season he is far exceeding them if we are honest.

I don’t think he’s meeting drafted expectations. Not of the 16th overall pick in a draft. He is exceeding expectations for the majority of us entering into this season though. Though truth be told, I had no idea what the proper expectations were for him prior to the season given how little he was on the field the prior year.

 

[CT Card Fan]

Watt is mine.I expected him to either be injured by now or significantly tailed off. Dude is still producing at a high level.

Is it not Cardinal luck that in the year when everything else has gone to crap he has stayed healthy, but last year, or possibly some future year that wasn't or won't be the case.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Is it not Cardinal luck that in the year when everything else has gone to crap he has stayed healthy, but last year, or possibly some future year that wasn't or won't be the case.

Very true.

 

[cardpa]

With Zaven it depends on which expectations you are going with - Expectations for when he was drafted or expectations for the start of this season.

If you are going by drafted expectations he is meeting them, if you go by what most peoples expectations were at the start of the season he is far exceeding them if we are honest.

Like it or not he will be compared to Parsons since they were both in the same draft and were considered the top two LBs coming out and in some cases Collins was ranked slightly ahead of Parsons. That is the bar he will be compared to.

 

[BritCard]

Like it or not he will be compared to Parsons since they were both in the same draft and were considered the top two LBs coming out and in some cases Collins was ranked slightly ahead of Parsons. That is the bar he will be compared to.

It's not really a fair comparison though. They were both ILB's coming out but Parson's has converted to pass rusher in the NFL.

Had Parsons stayed at ILB there's no knowing what he might be.

I see Collins as more like a Leighton Vander Esch. Nearly identical size, weight and speed.

LVE had a great rookie season and has been average since.. Hopefully Collins can be the reverse.

 

[Stout]

It's not really a fair comparison though. They were both ILB's coming out but Parson's has converted to pass rusher in the NFL.

Had Parsons stayed at ILB there's no knowing what he might be.

I see Collins as more like a Leighton Vander Esch. Nearly identical size, weight and speed.

LVE had a great rookie season and has been average since.. Hopefully Collins can be the reverse.

Well, he can't, as he had an awful rookie season followed by an average 2nd season

Just joshing you. While my statement is factually correct, I know what you meant.

 

[BritCard]

Well, he can't, as he had an awful rookie season followed by an average 2nd season

Just joshing you. While my statement is factually correct, I know what you meant.

I don't even think he had an awful rookie season. I thought when he played he was ok. They just didn;t give him chances to play because this org is historically dire at handling rookies.

When was the last chance we gave one a real shot? Even Budda didn't get much play until like week 10 as a rookie and even then only because Badger went down.

How many times have we had a rookie come in and get a shot from game 1 and let him take his licks? Never mind be actually good. Marco Wilson, Byron Murphy, Kirk and Golden are the only 4 I can think of in the past 7-8 drafts. And I think all of them were a case of there being literally nobody to replace them.

 

[Stout]

I don't even think he had an awful rookie season. I thought when he played he was ok. They just didn;t give him chances to play because this org is historically dire at handling rookies.

When was the last chance we gave one a real shot? Even Budda didn't get much play until like week 10 as a rookie and even then only because Badger went down.

How many times have we had a rookie come in and get a shot from game 1 and let him take his licks? Never mind be actually good. Marco Wilson, Byron Murphy, Kirk and Golden are the only 4 I can think of in the past 7-8 drafts. And I think all of them were a case of there being literally nobody to replace them.

Oh, well, never mind. You actually think he didn't have an awful rookie season. His rookie season by any metric was indeed awful, and he earned less and less snaps as the season wore on. While I also would have liked to leave him in there to take his licks and learn on the job, he was overwhelmed and not doing well whatsoever when he started getting less playing time. I don't think there's a rational argument to be made that he had an average season as a rookie.

 

[cardpa]

It's not really a fair comparison though. They were both ILB's coming out but Parson's has converted to pass rusher in the NFL.

Had Parsons stayed at ILB there's no knowing what he might be.

I see Collins as more like a Leighton Vander Esch. Nearly identical size, weight and speed.

LVE had a great rookie season and has been average since.. Hopefully Collins can be the reverse.

It may not be a fair comparison however that will probably still be the comparison. Maybe the Cardinals should have done the same thing with Collins.

 

[BritCard]

Oh, well, never mind. You actually think he didn't have an awful rookie season. His rookie season by any metric was indeed awful, and he earned less and less snaps as the season wore on. While I also would have liked to leave him in there to take his licks and learn on the job, he was overwhelmed and not doing well whatsoever when he started getting less playing time. I don't think there's a rational argument to be made that he had an average season as a rookie.

How do you quantify that? I don't recall anything in games that justified his drop in snaps.

In 220 snaps (which is less than 4 games worth) he had 25 tackles, allowed 57% completion at only 4.9 yards per target in coverage for a 94 passer rating (which is league average), he only missed 7% of tackles which is comparible to anyone at the position, had one TFL and 3 PD's.

If we extrapolate that out he would have had 120 tackles, 5 TFLs, 13 PDs, and only 330 yards in coverage allowed.

All in all not a vast difference to this year.

The argument seems to be "Well he lost snaps so he must have been bad" where I think Vance just screwed up and prefered vets.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

How do you quantify that? I don't recall anything in games that justified his drop in snaps.

In 220 snaps (which is less than 4 games worth) he had 25 tackles, allowed 57% completion at only 4.9 yards per target in coverage for a 94 passer rating (which is league average), he only missed 7% of tackles which is comparible to anyone at the position, had one TFL and 3 PD's.

If we extrapolate that out he would have had 120 tackles, 5 TFLs, 13 PDs, and only 330 yards in coverage allowed.

All in all not a vast difference to this year.

The argument seems to be "Well he lost snaps so he must have been bad" where I think Vance just screwed up and prefered vets.

This why people who rely on stats tend to have little credibility around here. It’s not like we are arguing about a few years ago where peoples recolkection is hazy. We are talking last year where he was regularly an issue in terms of defensive scheme integrity and vance Joseph literally let us know he wasn’t learning by removing snaps. Unless of course you know collins responsibilities better than vance in Vance’s defensive scheme . . .

 

[Stout]

How do you quantify that? I don't recall anything in games that justified his drop in snaps.

In 220 snaps (which is less than 4 games worth) he had 25 tackles, allowed 57% completion at only 4.9 yards per target in coverage for a 94 passer rating (which is league average), he only missed 7% of tackles which is comparible to anyone at the position, had one TFL and 3 PD's.

If we extrapolate that out he would have had 120 tackles, 5 TFLs, 13 PDs, and only 330 yards in coverage allowed.

All in all not a vast difference to this year.

The argument seems to be "Well he lost snaps so he must have been bad" where I think Vance just screwed up and prefered vets.

Because no, we can't extrapolate that out. That is beyond faulty logic. He had less than 4 games worth of snaps. In them he was not good. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it. You liked him, and feel he was too hard done by VJ. Fair enough. Even with VJ's treatment of rookies, there's no saying the kid was an average player his first year. He wasn't. Collins is average now; he was not good last season. If he plays the way he has this season, we'll have an okay linebacker. Not a 1st-round talent, but maybe a bit better than JAG. If he continues to improve, we might have more than that. We'll see.