A Culture of Losing

[40yearfan]

How do we correct this? We have changed coaches, players, managers and no matter what, this team self destructs.

Some observations:

Schable and Francisco are our two most valuable special teams players. What an effort by those two.

Edge is beginning to look like he came to the Cards to retire. There were numerous holes opened for him last night and he managed to dance around until they closed. He isn't hitting the line fast enough. The OL was providing holes but they closed quickly. I think that if Arrington had been in there more, we would have had a lot more yards on the ground, especially in the 4th quarter.

The Oline played their best game of the season against a very good defense. Except for the one breakdown where Leinart got blindsided, they seemed like a very cohesive unit. Hopefully this group will stay in there and flourish.

Rakers has completely lost his confidence.

Leinart is one heck of a football player. If this team can't rally around this young man and start winning some football games for him, don't bother bringing in anyone else. It can't be done.

The defense was superb. This is the defense we all expected. Maybe they can build on this game.

The offense was alright, but we got into the don't lose mode instead of letting Leinhart air it out. The offensive coordinator needs to have more faith in him and never back off. We need to agressively pursue points until the final gun sounds. With this team, you can never have enough points.

We have a good football team with some very good players. They just need to learn how to win. Hopefully, they'll take something positive from this loss, realize what their potential is and start winning.

Dierdorf was really magnimous last night and he rightfully deserves to be in the Ring of Honor. Jeers to the idiots who booed last night when he thanked the Bidwills and cheers to DD when he chastized them for it.

Finally, a lot of us didn't expect the Cards to win, couldn't believe it when they had a large halftime lead, figured they'd do something to screw it up and then sat in disbelief when they did screw it up. Bad karma and part of the culture of losing.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

i was going to post something similar, but just take it in a different direction

there is a definite losing culture here - i know the last thing you want is pity from fans of another team, but I really do feel sorry for the fans, because i've lived through it for so long

I've seen them play bad football in an empty college stadium (thankfully for only 2 years), i've seen bad ownership try to run them into the ground, i've seen the struggle for a new stadium, i've seen mind numbing losses and the inability to turn the corner - i've seen the team overpay for free agents and watch super talented guys sleep walk through their careers

i've lived the culture of losing - us hawk fans used to call out an S.O.S. - it stood for Same Old Seahawks and was envoked whenever the team did something dumb, blew a winnable game or crapped on their fan base

so how did they fix it - fist they hired Randy Mueller and Dennis Erickson, spent tons of money, ruined the salary cap and bungled their way to 8 wins a year - a nice step, but obviously not the long term answer

then paul allen bought the team - secured the stadium and hired Mike Holmgren - he also brought his assortment of yes men and confidants

they tore down the previous structure, rebuilt the team, managed the cap, gave them a nice shiny new look and still managed 6-9 wins a year - still couldn't turn the corner, still S.O.S. - the culture was just too deep

in 2003 they started to make a positive change - they hired todd leiweke to be the CEO and head up all the community aspects of the seahawks - he held a similar position in MN for the Wild and really did some amazing grass roots stuff

It used to be you couldn't find seahawks stuff in seattle - he helped change that and create a brand - he built a mural using helmets of all the HS teams in the state to create a football (in MN he had every HS hockey sweater in the XCel Center) - they had flags hung all around the stadium showcasing the players, pioneer square started to look a little more seahawk as well - allen was seen as very aloof and leiweke helped bring the team back to the community

allen did dump a lot of money into facilities, team plane, locker rooms, etc - he treated players first class

when the stadium opened they needed a corporate buyout in the first game to avoid a local blackout - the stadium was filled with opposing fans - the diehards would show up, be disapointed while the casual fan there to check out the stadium walked away

if you stood to cheer you would have the section complain and call security to ask you to sit down - it was ridiculous

leiweke started to organize a block party atmosphere before games, brought in a live hawk to lead the team out of the tunnel, set up the Blue Thunder band to energize before, during and after the games and started the 12th man flag ritual

season ticket gifts & perks increased - pretty soon it was acceptable to be a part of the seahawks - you could attend games and cheer and it was considered a cool thing to do

so the atmosphere is improving and the team is now losing in the playoffs - hey it's a start

then they made their final move - cleaning up the mess upstairs - hiring a true football guy in Tim Ruskell - he cleaned house of the talented bad attitudes, if you messed up once too often you were gone - guys like anthony simmons (dansby is starting to remind me of him), koren robinson, wayne hunter, chike, huff, lamar king - all gone - bring in high energy guys with a winning background - look for football players as well as athletes

then the final component - win where you otherwise wouldn't - seattle had like 6 games last year that they would of traditionally lost - they had a couple this years - S.O.S would be 2-3 right now instead of a division leading 4-1 ......... learn how to win and it's expected

every fan expects a win every week, the players expect to win regardless of situation - last week during the KC game everyone in the stadium was expecting a loss when the chiefs rallied - that is what needs to change

the hawks are also building a nice facility in near seattle which will be completely first class

sure there will be down years in the future, but I think the losing culture has been shaken - the S.O.S is dead - if they fall we expect them to recover

it can happen, it's happened to teams like the Bucs as well

what they need is better community outreach and branding, make the cards cool and the thing to do - get a good football guy in the front office, open the checkbook and let him do his job - get a real coach & clean out those in the locker room who quit or lack confidence - no losers allowed - then simply start to win and watch it snowball

 

[chickenhead]

I think we're in a transitional period. I don't think Boldin, Fitzgerald, and now Leinart are part of a culture of losing. I think they are excited to turn it around, and looking forward to being the ones who did. And they'll be remembered as such if they do.

 

[conraddobler]

There is a war going on with this team and the good news is that it's now a close call, in the past it wasn't.

We'll get there.

 

[SunCityCarl]

Sometimes its really hard to find the positive when a team continues to lose especially when you have opponents fans around you that just won't shut up. Leinart played well, offensive line was better but still isn't where it needs to be. In the 2nd half I felt the offensive play calling was way too conservative & reminded me of the old Joe Bugel days run, run, pass, punt. It was nice to see Denny Green show some emotion after the game, I'm glad I won't be on the practice field on Wednesday (YIKES!) Somethings up with Rackers though I think it's a bit early to call for his head I'd have no problem with them bringing another kicker in for a look. That being said I think he will get back on track. Remember nobody gave the Cards an ice cubes chance in hell of winning & the Cardinals were .52 seconds & a wide right away from winning that football game.

Now pass the Kool-Aid!

 

[kerouac9]

It was Francisco's blown lane assignment that allowed the long punt return.

 

[az jam]

Dierdorf was really magnimous last night and he rightfully deserves to be in the Ring of Honor. Jeers to the idiots who booed last night when he thanked the Bidwills and cheers to DD when he chastized them for it.

Boy I also thought that was classless.

 

[Cheesebeef]

i was going to post something similar, but just take it in a different direction

there is a definite losing culture here - i know the last thing you want is pity from fans of another team, but I really do feel sorry for the fans, because i've lived through it for so long

I've seen them play bad football in an empty college stadium (thankfully for only 2 years), i've seen bad ownership try to run them into the ground, i've seen the struggle for a new stadium, i've seen mind numbing losses and the inability to turn the corner - i've seen the team overpay for free agents and watch super talented guys sleep walk through their careers

i've lived the culture of losing - us hawk fans used to call out an S.O.S. - it stood for Same Old Seahawks and was envoked whenever the team did something dumb, blew a winnable game or crapped on their fan base

so how did they fix it - fist they hired Randy Mueller and Dennis Erickson, spent tons of money, ruined the salary cap and bungled their way to 8 wins a year - a nice step, but obviously not the long term answer

then paul allen bought the team - secured the stadium and hired Mike Holmgren - he also brought his assortment of yes men and confidants

they tore down the previous structure, rebuilt the team, managed the cap, gave them a nice shiny new look and still managed 6-9 wins a year - still couldn't turn the corner, still S.O.S. - the culture was just too deep

in 2003 they started to make a positive change - they hired todd leiweke to be the CEO and head up all the community aspects of the seahawks - he held a similar position in MN for the Wild and really did some amazing grass roots stuff

It used to be you couldn't find seahawks stuff in seattle - he helped change that and create a brand - he built a mural using helmets of all the HS teams in the state to create a football (in MN he had every HS hockey sweater in the XCel Center) - they had flags hung all around the stadium showcasing the players, pioneer square started to look a little more seahawk as well - allen was seen as very aloof and leiweke helped bring the team back to the community

allen did dump a lot of money into facilities, team plane, locker rooms, etc - he treated players first class

when the stadium opened they needed a corporate buyout in the first game to avoid a local blackout - the stadium was filled with opposing fans - the diehards would show up, be disapointed while the casual fan there to check out the stadium walked away

if you stood to cheer you would have the section complain and call security to ask you to sit down - it was ridiculous

leiweke started to organize a block party atmosphere before games, brought in a live hawk to lead the team out of the tunnel, set up the Blue Thunder band to energize before, during and after the games and started the 12th man flag ritual

season ticket gifts & perks increased - pretty soon it was acceptable to be a part of the seahawks - you could attend games and cheer and it was considered a cool thing to do

so the atmosphere is improving and the team is now losing in the playoffs - hey it's a start

then they made their final move - cleaning up the mess upstairs - hiring a true football guy in Tim Ruskell - he cleaned house of the talented bad attitudes, if you messed up once too often you were gone - guys like anthony simmons (dansby is starting to remind me of him), koren robinson, wayne hunter, chike, huff, lamar king - all gone - bring in high energy guys with a winning background - look for football players as well as athletes

then the final component - win where you otherwise wouldn't - seattle had like 6 games last year that they would of traditionally lost - they had a couple this years - S.O.S would be 2-3 right now instead of a division leading 4-1 ......... learn how to win and it's expected

every fan expects a win every week, the players expect to win regardless of situation - last week during the KC game everyone in the stadium was expecting a loss when the chiefs rallied - that is what needs to change

the hawks are also building a nice facility in near seattle which will be completely first class

sure there will be down years in the future, but I think the losing culture has been shaken - the S.O.S is dead - if they fall we expect them to recover

it can happen, it's happened to teams like the Bucs as well

what they need is better community outreach and branding, make the cards cool and the thing to do - get a good football guy in the front office, open the checkbook and let him do his job - get a real coach & clean out those in the locker room who quit or lack confidence - no losers allowed - then simply start to win and watch it snowball

I agree with what you've said in regards to all of the above but here's why IT CAN NOT APPLY TO THE CARDINALS -- the culture of losing with the Hawks and Bucs came from the same place - DIFFERENT OWNERSHIP FOR THE BUCS AND THE HAWKS - PERIOD. We can't change that and because of that, nothing will change in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Big T]

I will go on record as saying that: at this particular point in time I think most of this "losing attitude" is primarily Dennis Green propoganda as yet another smokescreen to cover his own derriere.

There are very few players left on this team that HE didn't bring in. And those that are, like Quan, Gerald Hayes, etc certainly are not "losers".

Thats all garbage and smoke to make excuses for himself.

 

[JeffGollin]

How to Ditch the Culture? I don't know, so I asked my wife

Who better to ask about why some teams and their key players shoot themselves in the foot - than a respected Psychoanalyst (otherwise known as "Mrs. Dr. G.").

What she said was a bit complicated but makes sense. Let me give it a try:

She said that most sports psychologists stress "accentuating the positive", and removing all negative thoughts from a player's mind.

She says the problem with that is that - even though a player may try to suppress negative thoughts on a conscious level, the negative feelings are still lurking in the unconscious.

(Definition of "unconscious" - feelings you don't even know you really have. Example: While waiting in the Emergency Room while my son was being X-rayed for a possible skull fracture, I felt all cool and confident, asking all the right questions of the medical staff. Then I fainted. Why? Because of stressful feelings I wasn't even aware of - i.e. stuff that was going on in my unconscious mind).

Dr. Gollin goes on to say that when unconscious feelings are suppressed, they have to find an outlet somewhere (kind of like a pressure cooker). When they can't (because the player is suppressing those feelings or is unintentionally aware of them), they have nowhere to go and get acted out on the field in the form of "mistakes" (like shanking a 40 yard field goal, for example).

She believes the way a player should deal with the problem is to (a) do a lot of introspection to determine whether he might have fears of screwing up, (b) trying to get in touch with those unconscious feelings and (c) if he feels an intuitive connection that what he thinks he might be unconsciously feeling seems genuine to (d) think about it and talk about it.

By being talked about and thought about on a conscious level, the negative feelings, by definition, are no longer "unconscious" and have a much healthier outlet than being acted out as miscues on the field.

Well, nothing else is working for the Cards, so I thought I'd give it a shot.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

their approach can change though - need to spend $ and take pride in the little things that will create a class organization - hopefully Michael gets it more than the old man

 

[denverbirdfan]

Who better to ask about why some teams and their key players shoot themselves in the foot - than a respected Psychoanalyst (otherwise known as "Mrs. Dr. G.").

What she said was a bit complicated but makes sense. Let me give it a try:

She said that most sports psychologists stress "accentuating the positive", and removing all negative thoughts from a player's mind.

She says the problem with that is that - even though a player may try to suppress negative thoughts on a conscious level, the negative feelings are still lurking in the unconscious.

(Definition of "unconscious" - feelings you don't even know you really have. Example: While waiting in the Emergency Room while my son was being X-rayed for a possible skull fracture, I felt all cool and confident, asking all the right questions of the medical staff. Then I fainted. Why? Because of stressful feelings I wasn't even aware of - i.e. stuff that was going on in my unconscious mind).

Dr. Gollin goes on to say that when unconscious feelings are suppressed, they have to find an outlet somewhere (kind of like a pressure cooker). When they can't (because the player is suppressing those feelings or is unintentionally aware of them), they have nowhere to go and get acted out on the field in the form of "mistakes" (like shanking a 40 yard field goal, for example).

She believes the way a player should deal with the problem is to (a) do a lot of introspection to determine whether he might have fears of screwing up, (b) trying to get in touch with those unconscious feelings and (c) if he feels an intuitive connection that what he thinks he might be unconsciously feeling seems genuine to (d) think about it and talk about it.

By being talked about and thought about on a conscious level, the negative feelings, by definition, are no longer "unconscious" and have a much healthier outlet than being acted out as miscues on the field.

Well, nothing else is working for the Cards, so I thought I'd give it a shot.

i really like your post here. my wife is also a psychologist and we were talking last night about this very topic. well, not specifically about the subconscious aspect, but just about the utter fear and hopelessness of the "here we go again" syndrome.

i remember seeing a presentation once on tv. a group of students, high school aged, were told that they were going to be part of a fictional situation where a teacher would tell them over and over again how they were not as good as other students. the reasons the teacher gave them for why they weren't as good as other students ranged from race, to gender, to eye color, to height, to weight, to intelligence, and so on. even though these were grown human beings who knew that this was all make-believe, many of the students started crying! one girl bawled so much she had to leave the situation. it was simply fascinating.

applied to this team, how powerful the dread of this "inevitable losing" must be! added to the players, 63,000 people looking on -- and millions on tv -- are all thinking the same thing!

i, for one, honestly believe this is as big of an issue as the offensive line -- and i am very confident in that statement. in the first quarter, we were relaxed, confident, and get ready for this one -- having fun!!!! this is a game for the love of all that's holy -- and yes, even the arizona cardinals, are supposed to be enjoying the same game we all played as kids! where is the fun in this team?

i have no idea how to change an attitude. but i am starting to appreciate just how crucial a positive attitude and confidence can be. the antithesis of it was on display last night.

on a more positive note, what i loved from last night was the effort. man, those guys played there hearts out! we'll make it someday.

 

[Derm]

I pray for a winning season just to get rid of Cheesy & the Clown....

 

[ajcardfan]

I will go on record as saying that: at this particular point in time I think most of this "losing attitude" is primarily Dennis Green propoganda as yet another smokescreen to cover his own derriere.

There are very few players left on this team that HE didn't bring in. And those that are, like Quan, Gerald Hayes, etc certainly are not "losers".

Thats all garbage and smoke to make excuses for himself.

When did Green ever talk about the "losing attitude" this season? I've heard commentators and fans talk about it, but not Denny.

 

[conraddobler]

This has to be the longest way in the world around to the fact our Oline is the problem.

We can't let them bulldoze a couple first downs when needed because they can't do it.

They outweigh everyone, what good is a huge line if they can't move people, even people trying desperately to stop them?

 

[Crimson Warrior]

This has to be the longest way in the world around to the fact our Oline is the problem.

We can't let them bulldoze a couple first downs when needed because they can't do it.

They outweigh everyone, what good is a huge line if they can't move people, even people trying desperately to stop them?

I was thinking about Barry Switzer and one of his Dallas Cowboys games against the iggles.

On third and one, he ran E. smith stright into the line for no gain.

With the game on the line he ran the same play again, got stuffed and took severe heat for in the local media. He had a great on line and a HOF RB, but they couldn't bulldoze their way to one yard.

So I'm not terribly surprised that edge was stopped on those two plays at the end of the game.

I'm not saying our oline is good or even okay, just that you can't judge them based on those two plays.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I pray for a winning season just to get rid of Cheesy & the Clown....

anyone ever notice how it's the "positive" people who always try to start fights by getting personal?

 

[joeshmo]

their approach can change though - need to spend $ and take pride in the little things that will create a class organization - hopefully Michael gets it more than the old man

So far I dont think he has.

Not after the fights he is waging with the Feista Bowl, the same fiesta bowl whom Mike would not have got the stadium becuase of their support and lobbying for the prop to pass in the public. May be taking the city of glendale Planning department to court over a street he thinks is owned by the Cards in the city of glendale, and is on bad terms with the rest of the City of Glendale government especially the Mayor who is still uber pissed. Mike is picking fights left and right in the past and as we speak.

 

[40yearfan]

So far I dont think he has.

Not after the fights he is waging with the Feista Bowl, the same fiesta bowl whom Mike would not have got the stadium becuase of their support and lobbying for the prop to pass in the public. May be taking the city of glendale Planning department to court over a street he thinks is owned by the Cards in the city of glendale, and is on bad terms with the rest of the City of Glendale government especially the Mayor who is still uber pissed. Mike is picking fights left and right in the past and as we speak.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe because it's the Cardinals, people feel they can take advantage of them? Case in point---ASU getting all the concessions and parking revenue. Mike B is a businessman and a darn good one.

There will always be disagreements in a business environment and I'm glad that the Cards are finally standing up for themselves.

 

[JeffGollin]

Did you ever stop to think that maybe because it's the Cardinals, people feel they can take advantage of them?

I think you're onto something, though I'd like to come at it from a different angle:

We've all participated in individual or team competitive sports sometime during our lifetimes, right?

Ever notice that when you succeed at some particular aspect of the game, your opponent tends to "give you a pass" from then on? (For example, if an opposing basketball player tries to go for the ball and you drive by him for an easy lay up, the dude will be reluctant to go for ball again - and you don't have to worry about it as much).

The converse is also true. If a RB puts the ball on the ground, the defense will try even harder to strip the ball from him because they figure if it worked before, it will work again. This makes the RB's job tougher because he has to focus extra-hard on protecting the ball.

What this means is: Winning makes things easier. Losing makes things harder - because winning teams can get away with stuff. Losing teams have to be super careful.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I pray for a winning season just to get rid of Cheesy & the Clown....

you obviously have the IQ of a peanut. why in the world would we leave the board (a board where i don't start fights . . . unlike you . . . in fact, if you just want to fight next time i'm in phoenix and the loser has to leave the board forever, let's do it. we can throw computors at each other.) when the glee would be high?

you've got a lot of hate in you. your wife leave in your truck and take your dog?

 

[Card Trader]

you obviously have the IQ of a peanut. why in the world would we leave the board (a board where i don't start fights . . . unlike you . . . in fact, if you just want to fight next time i'm in phoenix and the loser has to leave the board forever, let's do it. we can throw computors at each other.) when the glee would be high?

you've got a lot of hate in you. your wife leave in your truck and take your dog?

I can't imagine why anyone would dislike you or Cheese...you are so pleasant!


For the record, Derm would kick your ass

 

[Duckjake]

I think there are a lot of people exhibiting "Battered Cardinal Fan Syndrome".

"This is the 81st time your husband has hit you ma'am, we need to take him downtown"

"No, please don't." "He'll do better." "He promised." "He built me a beautiful new house to show how sorry he was." "He even hired this really handsome chauffer for me who drives better than any chauffer we've ever had."

"What are you officers doing with those handcuffs?!?!" "Take them off of him right now or I'll kick your ...."

 

[Derm]

you obviously have the IQ of a peanut. why in the world would we leave the board (a board where i don't start fights . . . unlike you . . . in fact, if you just want to fight next time i'm in phoenix and the loser has to leave the board forever, let's do it. we can throw computors at each other.) when the glee would be high?

you've got a lot of hate in you. your wife leave in your truck and take your dog?

Thank you for your kind words; you have made my day. I would add a smilie or two but taunting could draw a penalty.

PS: Wife is fine, dog is fine and the truck is okey dokey. Thanks for asking....

 

[Cheesebeef]

I can't imagine why anyone would dislike you or Cheese...you are so pleasant!

me thinks people think about me wayyyyyyyy too much.