A Few Thoughts On Kidd

[George O'Brien]

The standard rule of thumb is that it better to trade several fairly good players for one superstar. By that theory, the 96 trade to get Kidd made sense. But looking abck on it, I have to wonder.

In the December of '96 the Suns traded AC Green, Sam Cassell, Michael Finley and a 2nd round draft choice in 1997 or 1998 to the Dallas Mavericks for Jason Kidd, Tony Dumas and Loren Meyer. Dumas and Meyer did nothing.

Green had two good years with Dallas (9.3 rpg in the rest of 96-97 and 8.1 rpg in 97-98. His stats went down in 98-99 due to fewer minutes, but had 4.6 rpg in 18.5 minutes. His minutes went down due to the play of a rookie named Nowitzki.

Cassell moved on to New Jersey and later Milwaukee before landing in Minnesota. Cassell has a career shooting average of 45.8%, 16.3 ppg, and 6.3 assists per game.

Finley has a career 19.3 ppg, 45.1%, 36.6% for three, and 5.2 rpg stats.

I don't really like Cassell, but he had solid trade value and Green was a better rebounder than anyone the Suns had over the last years of his career. Finley was twice selected to the NBA All Star team.

One thing about this deal is that the key players remained mostly healthy, so it isn't like the deal for Hardaway who never really played much.

 

[Wally]

The Denver Board has a discussion on their "Big's" not panning out and it leads into some interesting comments on Kidd...

The Kidd part starts out with....

"Even some of you are starting to mention Nene in trades. But the ones that bother me are trading Nene or Camby & Andre to the Nets for Kidd. TWO FOR ONE.
You are so enthralled with the wife beater, runs the show including every decision made by the coach, gm, his teammates & even the owner that you care not what is best for our team. You're blinded by all the worship Kidd talk."

And then it gets going ...... see for yourself.

http://nuggets.proboards1.com/index.cgi?board=nuggets&action=display&num=1104394177

 

[elindholm]

Cassell's value was quite low when the Suns made the Kidd trade. At the time, no one was sure whether Cassell had the skills to lead a team, or if he had just benefitted from playing alongside Olajuwon. His time in Phoenix was very unsuccessful.

 

[Dan H]

Cassell's value was quite low when the Suns made the Kidd trade. At the time, no one was sure whether Cassell had the skills to lead a team, or if he had just benefitted from playing alongside Olajuwon. His time in Phoenix was very unsuccessful.

How was it unsuccessful? He was leading the team in scoring when he was traded . . . albeit over the course of part of a season, but still.

 

[elindholm]

I don't remember the details, but the bottom line is that the team was lousy and everyone hated one another. Three of the four players acquired in the Barkley deal were gone within a year.

 

[George O'Brien]

I don't remember the details, but the bottom line is that the team was lousy and everyone hated one another. Three of the four players acquired in the Barkley deal were gone within a year.

I'm not sure most new fans realize how unusual this year's hat trick of getting three useful free agents really is. During the late 90's, the Suns probably made more bad moves than good ones and it took a while to dig out from under some of the bigger blunders. But beyond the obvious blunders such as Marley for Williams, Manning for Hardaway, signing Longley and Goods, etc., there were some other trades like the Kidd trade where the Suns did not get good value.

Fortunately, Brian has learned a lot from that period and has been making mostly good decisions lately. Some of his best decisions have involved NOT making a certain trades.

 

[StopTheMadness]

Yeaaah, I'm gonna have to disagree there with ya George.

I think we made a few bad moves, Majerle for Hot Rod hurt, but the other trades were very impressive. Some didn't work out, injuries to Hardaway/Googs were debilitating, and Mcyess bolting obviously stung, however the actual trades/signings for those players, at the time, were very good in that we really didn't give up much.

When Barkley left and we started out 0-13 to eventually make the playoffs was superb. We picked up Ced and Kidd, and the signing of Rex chapman was handy too.

I think Jerry & Co have done a masterful job of getting players to Phoenix, be it trade or free agency.

 

[George O'Brien]

Yeaaah, I'm gonna have to disagree there with ya George.

I think we made a few bad moves, Majerle for Hot Rod hurt, but the other trades were very impressive. Some didn't work out, injuries to Hardaway/Googs were debilitating, and Mcyess bolting obviously stung, however the actual trades/signings for those players, at the time, were very good in that we really didn't give up much.

When Barkley left and we started out 0-13 to eventually make the playoffs was superb. We picked up Ced and Kidd, and the signing of Rex chapman was handy too.

I think Jerry & Co have done a masterful job of getting players to Phoenix, be it trade or free agency.

Welcome aboard.

The McDyess fiasco was to a major degree the Suns fault. Rather than focusing on getting him signed at the eariest possible point, they waited and simply counted on the fact that the Suns could pay more. They also did not pay attention to the growing conflict that McDyess was having with Ainge over the fact that McDyess was not getting the ball in Ainge's guard oriented offense. Giving up a bunch of draft picks for a guy without follow through was an horrendous blunder. It was an expensive lesson.

BTW, I agree the Suns did make some good moves in the late 90's such as signing Manning, Chapman, Robsinson, etc.; but they vastly overpaid for Hardaway and Googs because there were no other serious bidders.

Googs when healthy was a nice, complimentary player who got superstar money. Even when healthy he was slow, weak, and not very long. Hist best years came when he played with KG and thus got a lot of open looks due to KG being double teamed. I never liked his game because I always felt he was too soft to be an inside guy and too slow to play SF.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I don't remember the details, but the bottom line is that the team was lousy and everyone hated one another. Three of the four players acquired in the Barkley deal were gone within a year.

That whole deal was a fiasco. Barkley had forced a trade the ownership did not want to do. The players that we got did not want to be here.

Westy had been forced out as coach and Cotton had taken over. Cotton wanted to prove that he could run a triangle offense as bad as his old buddy Tex Winter, so he insisted on it in training camp.

The players did not understand it and certainly did not like it. The players obviously did not like it, and gave no effort. The Suns got off to their worst start ever and Cotton quit.

Ainge was left to pick up the pieces.

Horry threw a towel at Ainge during a game and was dealt. The deal was available for Kidd and the Suns took it. Ainge then dumped the triangle which would be a disaster with Kidd at the point (Cleamons had already proven that in Dallas). Then Kidd broke his--what was it--collar bone?

Dark days.

But, trading for Kidd was still a great move. Cassell was a decent player, but didn't want to be here. No one wanted to lose Finley but Kidd was something special and he was quite young. Finley's career has been good, but I don't think anyone would say he has eclipsed Kidd. Honestly, AC Green was negative value in that deal. His salary was way above his on-the-court-contribution. I couldn't believe Dallas was willing to take him.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Welcome aboard.

The McDyess fiasco was to a major degree the Suns fault. Rather than focusing on getting him signed at the eariest possible point, they waited and simply counted on the fact that the Suns could pay more. They also did not pay attention to the growing conflict that McDyess was having with Ainge over the fact that McDyess was not getting the ball in Ainge's guard oriented offense. Giving up a bunch of draft picks for a guy without follow through was an horrendous blunder. It was an expensive lesson.

BTW, I agree the Suns did make some good moves in the late 90's such as signing Manning, Chapman, Robsinson, etc.; but they vastly overpaid for Hardaway and Googs because there were no other serious bidders.

Googs when healthy was a nice, complimentary player who got superstar money. Even when healthy he was slow, weak, and not very long. Hist best years came when he played with KG and thus got a lot of open looks due to KG being double teamed. I never liked his game because I always felt he was too soft to be an inside guy and too slow to play SF.

You're wrong here George.

1. When the Suns traded for Dice, the window for the early signing of free agents had already passed. Dice had refused to re-up with Denver, and once they passed the opportunity to sign him, they chose to trade him rather than lose him for nothing. The Suns were not allowed to sign him early. They had to wait until summer. They did take a risk, but they assumed that they could pay more money and that Dice would want to stay. Up til that time, the Suns had never lost a FA they wanted to keep. The lockout made that choice a disaster.

2. There was no "growing conflict" between Ainge and Dice. Dice never complained and never said a word to Ainge. Ainge has said this many times. Ainge was developing Dice and doing it quite well. Even getting the ball was not an issue. Kidd threw it up there for Dice all year.

Later, the excuse used was that Dice often sat in crunch time. And that was true. Dice was still an immature player, and did not always make the best decisions on the floor during crunch time.

Then, of course, there is the John Lucas/Denver/psychological manipulation tampering thing, which we have discussed here lots of times.

3. Googs was the second best player on the FA market that year and much more than a complementary player. Garnett did NOT normally get double-teamed in his first and second years in the league, and Googs benefitted more by playing with Marbury than with Garnett. There were glimpses of what Garnett would become, but he was very raw early. IMO, Garnett benefitted more by playing with Googs than vice versa.

 

[Dan H]

You're wrong here George.

1. When the Suns traded for Dice, the window for the early signing of free agents had already passed. Dice had refused to re-up with Denver, and once they passed the opportunity to sign him, they chose to trade him rather than lose him for nothing. The Suns were not allowed to sign him early. They had to wait until summer. They did take a risk, but they assumed that they could pay more money and that Dice would want to stay. Up til that time, the Suns had never lost a FA they wanted to keep. The lockout made that choice a disaster.

2. There was no "growing conflict" between Ainge and Dice. Dice never complained and never said a word to Ainge. Ainge has said this many times. Ainge was developing Dice and doing it quite well. Even getting the ball was not an issue. Kidd threw it up there for Dice all year.

Later, the excuse used was that Dice often sat in crunch time. And that was true. Dice was still an immature player, and did not always make the best decisions on the floor during crunch time.

Then, of course, there is the John Lucas/Denver/psychological manipulation tampering thing, which we have discussed here lots of times.

3. Googs was the second best player on the FA market that year and much more than a complementary player. Garnett did NOT normally get double-teamed in his first and second years in the league, and Googs benefitted more by playing with Marbury than with Garnett. There were glimpses of what Garnett would become, but he was very raw early. IMO, Garnett benefitted more by playing with Googs than vice versa.

I was going to post much the same. Denver's underhanded shenanigans and the lockout were the primary reasons, as you said, for McDyess' departure.

 

[binkar]

George,

You did not really just start a thread on the deal that brought Jason Kidd to Phoenix, did you?

 

[Joe Mama]

You're wrong here George.

2. There was no "growing conflict" between Ainge and Dice. Dice never complained and never said a word to Ainge. Ainge has said this many times. Ainge was developing Dice and doing it quite well. Even getting the ball was not an issue. Kidd threw it up there for Dice all year.

Later, the excuse used was that Dice often sat in crunch time. And that was true. Dice was still an immature player, and did not always make the best decisions on the floor during crunch time.

Then, of course, there is the John Lucas/Denver/psychological manipulation tampering thing, which we have discussed here lots of times.

3. Googs was the second best player on the FA market that year and much more than a complementary player. Garnett did NOT normally get double-teamed in his first and second years in the league, and Googs benefitted more by playing with Marbury than with Garnett. There were glimpses of what Garnett would become, but he was very raw early. IMO, Garnett benefitted more by playing with Googs than vice versa.

I'm not sure about the "growing conflict, but for anybody who watched a lot of Phoenix Suns basketball that season it was fairly obvious that Antonio McDyess was not completely happy with the situation in Phoenix, especially Danny Ainge's distribution of minutes. In that 1997-98 season with Phoenix McDyess 30 minutes per game. That was almost a 5 minute declined in minutes from his previous season with Denver despite the fact that he was supposed to be on the verge of stardom at the power forward position.

His unhappiness with the absence of minutes in crunch time is not something that people just make up after the fact to explain his departure. I vividly remember pointing out on several occasions that season that McDyess was clearly unhappy with his absence of playing time at the end of the games. Danny Ainge just like playing his veterans in crunch time. The team was better with McDyess on the floor. I almost wonder whether it was more difficult for Danny Ainge to taking time from the veterans, so he left McDyess off the floor.

Of course as you pointed out it didn't help that the lockout and McDyess' own mental weakness allowed Denver crookedly screw the Suns like they did. Denver really should have been hit with a punishment more severe than Minnesota's from the Joe Smith fiasco.

Obviously Antonio McDyess is/was a better player than Tom Gugliotta. More importantly he was a much better fit for Jason Kidd's athletic, fast court brand of basketball. However if Googs had been able to stay healthy, if there was no Livingston, I think one could make the argument that overall the Suns were not any worse off with him instead of McDyess. I mean McDyess played two full seasons with Denver and then almost nothing because of injuries. I don't know. Perhaps they never would have signed Penny Hardaway if McDyess had re-signed. Who knows?

BTW I know it is nitpicking, but Tom Gugliotta was not the second best free-agent that summer. The best free-agent was Scottie Pippen. Googs was the second-best power forward free agent though.

Joe Mama

 

[jibikao]

That whole deal was a fiasco. Barkley had forced a trade the ownership did not want to do. The players that we got did not want to be here.

Westy had been forced out as coach and Cotton had taken over. Cotton wanted to prove that he could run a triangle offense as bad as his old buddy Tex Winter, so he insisted on it in training camp.

The players did not understand it and certainly did not like it. The players obviously did not like it, and gave no effort. The Suns got off to their worst start ever and Cotton quit.

Ainge was left to pick up the pieces.

Horry threw a towel at Ainge during a game and was dealt. The deal was available for Kidd and the Suns took it. Ainge then dumped the triangle which would be a disaster with Kidd at the point (Cleamons had already proven that in Dallas). Then Kidd broke his--what was it--collar bone?

Dark days.

But, trading for Kidd was still a great move. Cassell was a decent player, but didn't want to be here. No one wanted to lose Finley but Kidd was something special and he was quite young. Finley's career has been good, but I don't think anyone would say he has eclipsed Kidd. Honestly, AC Green was negative value in that deal. His salary was way above his on-the-court-contribution. I couldn't believe Dallas was willing to take him.

If you guys think Suns made bad decisions, think again. I think Mavs has been making tons of mistakes ever since that 2001-2002 burst.
1.) Nick Van was let go.

2.) They brought in Walker and Jamison to STEAL Dirk's performance. This is probably the worst decision ever. Dirk is definitely the go-to guy but they brought in Walker to destory the whole team. Jamison was fine but Mavs could trade him for a better person.



I guess Suns will face a tough decision after this season. Should we keep JJ or trade him for somebody else?

Jimmy

 

[baltimorer]

The Kidd trade was a bad trade?

Kidd was the best point guard in the league the entire time he was here.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Listen, BC managed to get a 1st round pick for a terminally crippled Luc Longley. That had to be one of the biggest heists in NBA history.

We could look at some of the good deals the Suns have made.

FA signing of Steven Hunter. Looking good.
Marbury and Penny to NY for picks and cap space (nets Nash and Q). Great.
Nash for a Dallas unprotected 1st (Marion). Great deal.
Schwag to Orlando for Bo and our pick back (Amare, I know this is debated). Great.
RR and Delk to Boston for JJ. Train robbery.
Highly protected 1st to San Antonio for Barbs. Good trade.

The ho hums

Googs and picks to Utah for cash. all business, didn't like it.
The Jake deal. dumped space.
The Jahidi White deal-Wizards. tried to fix what was unrepairable. should have fired the coach first.
The Jahidi White deal-Bobcats. Was it really necessary to give up a pick? I suppose. In the end it turned out all right but it sure seemed like White had more value than that.


Any one ever notice. The worst trades in Suns history always involve trying to get the mythical "big man."

 

[George O'Brien]

I'm not sure about the "growing conflict, but for anybody who watched a lot of Phoenix Suns basketball that season it was fairly obvious that Antonio McDyess was not completely happy with the situation in Phoenix, especially Danny Ainge's distribution of minutes. In that 1997-98 season with Phoenix McDyess 30 minutes per game. That was almost a 5 minute declined in minutes from his previous season with Denver despite the fact that he was supposed to be on the verge of stardom at the power forward position.

His unhappiness with the absence of minutes in crunch time is not something that people just make up after the fact to explain his departure. I vividly remember pointing out on several occasions that season that McDyess was clearly unhappy with his absence of playing time at the end of the games. Danny Ainge just like playing his veterans in crunch time. The team was better with McDyess on the floor. I almost wonder whether it was more difficult for Danny Ainge to taking time from the veterans, so he left McDyess off the floor.

Of course as you pointed out it didn't help that the lockout and McDyess' own mental weakness allowed Denver crookedly screw the Suns like they did. Denver really should have been hit with a punishment more severe than Minnesota's from the Joe Smith fiasco.

Obviously Antonio McDyess is/was a better player than Tom Gugliotta. More importantly he was a much better fit for Jason Kidd's athletic, fast court brand of basketball. However if Googs had been able to stay healthy, if there was no Livingston, I think one could make the argument that overall the Suns were not any worse off with him instead of McDyess. I mean McDyess played two full seasons with Denver and then almost nothing because of injuries. I don't know. Perhaps they never would have signed Penny Hardaway if McDyess had re-signed. Who knows?

BTW I know it is nitpicking, but Tom Gugliotta was not the second best free-agent that summer. The best free-agent was Scottie Pippen. Googs was the second-best power forward free agent though.

Joe Mama

That you for your comments on McDyess. It should be noted that while the Suns couldn't SIGN McDyess until that summer, that did not prevent the Suns from starting the negotiation. Did McDyess even know how much money he was giving up or how his agent had a conflict of interest since he represented Van Exel as well?

How big a disaster was this? In 1997-98 the Suns went 56-26. They averaged 104.5 ppg and 46.8% from the field including 43.1% from the field. They had Kidd, Manning, Robinson, Chapman, Nash, and KJ. In 1998-99 they went 27-23 in the strike shortened season which is the equivalent of 44 wins. Their previously weak defense was worse in 98-99 as opponents shot 45% against them. More significant was that their rebouding dropped from +.06 to -2.1 rpg.

 

[Dan H]

That you for your comments on McDyess. It should be noted that while the Suns couldn't SIGN McDyess until that summer, that did not prevent the Suns from starting the negotiation. Did McDyess even know how much money he was giving up or how his agent had a conflict of interest since he represented Van Exel as well?

No offense, George, but you're wrong. The Suns could neither sign McDyess nor negotiate with him during the lockout. There was a moratorium on contact between players and their teams. McDyess fired his original agent and hired Nick Van Exel's agent. He was hanging out quite a bit with NVE, who had just been traded to Denver. John Lucas, who was at that time unemployed, came into the picture, and as a result, McDyess ended up signing with Denver - and Lucas strangely enough got a job with Denver, which is where some of the issues about circumventing league rules came into play.

 

[sly fly]

No offense, George, but you're wrong. The Suns could neither sign McDyess nor negotiate with him during the lockout. There was a moratorium on contact between players and their teams. McDyess fired his original agent and hired Nick Van Exel's agent. He was hanging out quite a bit with NVE, who had just been traded to Denver. John Lucas, who was at that time unemployed, came into the picture, and as a result, McDyess ended up signing with Denver - and Lucas strangely enough got a job with Denver, which is where some of the issues about circumventing league rules came into play.

Not to mention Lucas whispering in Dice's ear during summer workouts.

George, please get your facts straight.

 

[George O'Brien]

Not to mention Lucas whispering in Dice's ear during summer workouts.

George, please get your facts straight.

I was only repeating what I read at the time. I am not sure I have ever heard of team being prohitibited from quietly negotiating with a player during the season. Has this ever been enforced? They don't even enforce poaching, which clearly is on the books.

Is it "negotiationg" to tell the player how much the team loves him and that they will be offering a max contract to keep him? How about leaking it to the newspapers? My guess is that they never imagined it could happen, so they didn't prepare for it.

 

[Joe Mama]

I was only repeating what I read at the time. I am not sure I have ever heard of team being prohitibited from quietly negotiating with a player during the season. Has this ever been enforced? They don't even enforce poaching, which clearly is on the books.

Is it "negotiationg" to tell the player how much the team loves him and that they will be offering a max contract to keep him? How about leaking it to the newspapers? My guess is that they never imagined it could happen, so they didn't prepare for it.

Can't you guys do realize that you are talking about two different time periods. As far as I can tell DanH and slyfly are talking about negotiating during the lockout and George is talking about negotiating during the season before the lockout. I'm not sure about the CBA at that time, but I doubt it would have been possible to actually re-sign Antonio McDyess during that season. In fact I'm sure it was impossible. However I don't think there'll are or were any rules about negotiating with the agent and player during that time.

George, I'm just not sure how you know that the Suns weren't giving Antonio McDyess the love and attention behind the scenes.

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

Can't you guys do realize that you are talking about two different time periods. As far as I can tell DanH and slyfly are talking about negotiating during the lockout and George is talking about negotiating during the season before the lockout. I'm not sure about the CBA at that time, but I doubt it would have been possible to actually re-sign Antonio McDyess during that season. In fact I'm sure it was impossible. However I don't think there'll are or were any rules about negotiating with the agent and player during that time.

George, I'm just not sure how you know that the Suns weren't giving Antonio McDyess the love and attention behind the scenes.

Joe Mama

That was some of the stories I heard, that McDyess was not happy with Ainge and the Colangelos weren't even aware of it. However, I agree the lockout was a killer. But it is not like it was a big surprise to anyone.

The basic truth about free agency is that most players move because they are unhappy. Yes, they may be unhappy about the money, but typically the money difference has to be huge for a player to leave even bad teams. When McDyess left to take substantially less money, it took more than Van Exel and his evil agent to drag McDyess away. They preyed on McDyess's unhappiness but did not create it.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I was only repeating what I read at the time. I am not sure I have ever heard of team being prohitibited from quietly negotiating with a player during the season. Has this ever been enforced? They don't even enforce poaching, which clearly is on the books.

Is it "negotiationg" to tell the player how much the team loves him and that they will be offering a max contract to keep him? How about leaking it to the newspapers? My guess is that they never imagined it could happen, so they didn't prepare for it.

George, in Ainge's "end-of-the-season" press conference he was asked, "what is your number one priority over the summer." He practically screamed "sign Antonio McDyess!"

That's about all they could do. Then the moratorium on speaking to players or agents came, due to the lockout.

 

[Gee!]

This whole thread and I did see one mention of Nash being dealt to Dallas.



Anyway, why are we talking about this?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I'm not sure most new fans realize how unusual this year's hat trick of getting three useful free agents really is. During the late 90's, the Suns probably made more bad moves than good ones and it took a while to dig out from under some of the bigger blunders. QUOTE]


hmm, late 90's perhaps, but prior to that we were damn good. got everyone we wanted it seemed. chambers, ainge, manning, tisdale, green. if we wanted 'em they came to us. sometimes for even less money.