Airizona Attendance Compared to 2003

[john h]

http://slam.canoe.ca/StatsFBP/BC-FBP-STAT-ARIZONAATTCOMP-R.html

 

[chickenhead]

Slam is a great archival site - it's a bit hard to navigate, though.

The attendance seems about right. Attendance spikes generally lag a bit behind on-field improvement, though it's not as frequent in the NFL since so many stadiums nearly sell out all the time. We may not see significant improvement until the new stadium opens, and if next year ends up being a winning year. A playoff push next year would probably put a lot of butts in seats for the short term.

 

[Scott MS]

Rams should bring a good size crowd on Sunday, and the Bucs crowd will be mediocre. I can't image too many Bucs fans in the Valley, but they might have recently jumped on the bandwagon and will wear their Warren Sapp jerseys.

 

[john h]

http://slam.canoe.ca/StatsFBP/BC-FBP-STAT-ARIZONAATTCOMP-R.html

It is no wonder that with our average of 35,000 we are losing money. You can bet players agents know each and every teams attendance and budgets and in the end it effects the quality of the team on the field. The Bidwills are responsible for the position they are in. By moving the team to three different cities we have never built a lifetime fan base from generation to generation. By being frugal in years past and the way they conducted business by not giving contract extensions early and some of their other strange business practices they clearly have the least valuable franchise in the NFL. Have the Bidwills really changed their way of doing business? I do not know. We are going to end up with perhaps the best stadium in the NFL and we sure need to get this sled turned around because an average attendance of 35,000 is not going to produce a winner. I now understand why the Bidwills may hold back some money that could be spent on players. Unlike some of the mega wealthy people who can afford to lose money the Bidwills are just rich and probably need real income to support their lifestyle.
Over the long haul do you all not think that the teams with big attendace do better with a won/lost record? Good attendance does not always go with good performance. Washington is by far and away the leader in attendance with an average attendance of around 90,000. This with a not so good team. They do have a history of being a very good team. Indy is a good team with an average attendance of 59,000 which is I think the second worst in the NFL behind the Cards 35,000 average.

 

[Scott MS]

By moving the team to three different cities we have never built a lifetime fan base from generation to generation.

I think winning is the issue. I don't have the information, but if you look at the first years the Cardinals were in Phoenix, they had strong attendance.

The playoff run, especially the last game in '98 which was a sell-out against the Chargers, saw lots of fans. Season tickets in '99, after the playoffs, soared, and unfortunately, attendance has dropped ever since.

I have been a season ticket holder since the '99 season (and yes, the playoff run helped my cause). I remember sell-outs in '99 and '00 with teams like the Cowboys, 49ers on Monday Night Football, Packers, etc. Now we can't even sell those teams out. Unfortunately, this town demands a winning team (and probably a little better stadium) before the "fringe" fans will show up. Hopefully that will all come together in 2006.

 

[Mulli]

BIM --- Arizona

 

[Scott MS]

Average Attendance Per Game:

1999 Cardinals average attendance: 49,155

2003 Cardinals average attendance: 36,062

2004 Cardinals average attendance (so far): 38,091



1999 averaged 29% more fans per game than this season. That is a fact.

 

[chickenhead]

Washington has not had a great team the past few years, but they do have a long tradition of winning that spanned several decades. Plus, despite how wacky their owner is, and how shortsighted some of his signings have been, there is no doubt that he is gunning for a title.

The other thing that they have is inertia. The supply-demand ratio for live NFL football is very extreme. You drop your Skins season tickets after a bad couple of years, you aren't getting them back for a long time. The same can be said for a number of other teams.

 

[john h]

Average Attendance Per Game:

1999 Cardinals average attendance: 49,155

2003 Cardinals average attendance: 36,062

2004 Cardinals average attendance (so far): 38,091



1999 averaged 29% more fans per game than this season. That is a fact.

Sort of sounds like around 40,000+ is a break even point for the Cardinals as they lost money for the first time last year. Some owners will spend money to make money and can afford it. The Bidwills are not in that position and I would not argue with them last year if they held back on spending. I do not like it but I do understand a business has to make money to survive. Looks like they are just trying to make it to the new stadium with hopes of it providing some turn around money. I would not look for us to spend any big bucks next year on FA and would not be supprised to see us trade down if it will save money. In the end money drives everything in the NFL. It is things like this that may keep us from signing Wilson. He knows the market for his services and we may not be able to afford him.

 

[Lex]

Attendance figures for Arizona are irrelevant and uncomparable to the rest of the NFL since the Cardinals are the only team in the league that plays thier games in a college stadium.

I would also like to point out that the amount of money the Cardinals have to spend on players, has no real effect on the quality or quantity of players we attract in free agency, since the biggest reason players won't even consider coming here, is the negative perception of the Cards franchise by the players in the NFL.

Dennis Green said, on a scale of 1-10, the Cardinals practice facility is a 9, while the facilities Green left in Minnesota would be a 2.

The bow tie doesn't suit up on Sunday's. Neither do the color of the uniforms, the little bird on the helmets, or the history of losing in distant long forgotten places. PLAYERS suit up on Sunday's. THESE players were in short pants, or not born, when the team played in other cities.

 

[john h]

Attendance figures for Arizona are irrelevant and uncomparable to the rest of the NFL since the Cardinals are the only team in the league that plays thier games in a college stadium.

I would also like to point out that the amount of money the Cardinals have to spend on players, has no real effect on the quality or quantity of players we attract in free agency, since the biggest reason players won't even consider coming here, is the negative perception of the Cards franchise by the players in the NFL.

Dennis Green said, on a scale of 1-10, the Cardinals practice facility is a 9, while the facilities Green left in Minnesota would be a 2.

The bow tie doesn't suit up on Sunday's. Neither do the color of the uniforms, the little bird on the helmets, or the history of losing in distant long forgotten places. PLAYERS suit up on Sunday's. THESE players were in short pants, or not born, when the team played in other cities.

Attendance is never irrevelant as that is what produces revenue which is the ultimate driving force behind everything. I do not care what kind of stadium you play in or where you play you must have the revenue produced by attendance to remain in business or put a decent product on the field. Money is everything in all professional sports.

 

[jf-08]

Attendance figures for Arizona are irrelevant and uncomparable to the rest of the NFL since the Cardinals are the only team in the league that plays thier games in a college stadium.

If the team was a winner, we'd have great attendance, college stadium notwithstanding.

 

[chickenhead]

The Cards will have a new stadium soon enough. However, if the Bidwills think that alone is enough for sellouts, they'll be disappointed. Other teams have great attendance because of their stadiums, their traditions, market demand, and the normal cycles of success that the Cardinals have left themselves out of.

 

[Lex]

John-

Of course attendance is relevant in terms of producing revenue for team owners.

My statement was "attendance figures for Arizona are irrelevant and uncomparable to the rest of the NFL" in the context of your contention that the Bidwills are to blame, same old Cardinals, never gonna be better as long as bow tie owns the team, yadda yadda. This is a typical St Louis Cardinal fan refrain.

The REASON the Bidwills franchise is the least valuable ...is because they have no stadium.

The REASON the Redskins franchise is the most valuable ...is because of Fed Ex field, and the season ticket holders they have cultivated for years.

Our new stadium will not come with built in sellouts, but it will be a better experience for any potential fan, that may decide to check the new digs out, and perhaps become a season ticket holder. Frankly, the experience of 50 year old SDS on a 110 degree day, has driven away market share ever since the Cards got here.

My point here is, there are a lot of reasons why the Cardinals have only made the playoffs once since 1988. The reasons are all out there playing, it's not the Bidwills, not the colors, not even the little bird. It's the players drawing a chunk of salary cap every team has the opportunity to spend.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

The numbers from the time they came to AZ until Prop 302 was proposed averaged out to just under 48,000 per game which is likely why the team guaranteed that amount of sold tickets for the life of the stadium, or something to that extent.

 

[Lex]

On KDUS this morning, they were talking about how Jacksonville is thinking of covering up 10,000 seats next year, so they could sell out more often, and get the blackouts lifted.

I always get a laugh out of the seating capacity in SDS. It's a joke. Just because they can put a number on seventysomethousand spots on bleachers doesn't mean the place should actually hold that many people. If the Cardinals actually sold the place out on a regular basis, there would be catastrophic consequences with the poor people enduring the elements in that close proximity. Plus, ASU has decided to close 75% of the biggest parking lot, so they can build parking ramps scheduled to be finished right when the Cards leave. ASU is also talking about major improvements to SDS, along with reducing the seating capacity. The same fake seating capacity used to attract a major bowl game, and the Super Bowl in 1996, will no longer be needed since SDS will see it's last of those events in 2005.

 

[Duckjake]

My statement was "attendance figures for Arizona are irrelevant and uncomparable to the rest of the NFL" in the context of your contention that the Bidwills are to blame, same old Cardinals, never gonna be better as long as bow tie owns the team, yadda yadda. This is a typical St Louis Cardinal fan refrain.

Not true. I hear that refrain from 80% of the people I talk to in the Valley every time I come out for a game. I pimp the Cards all the time and that response is exactly what I get whenever I bring up the Cards. Its the same at the hotel, the restaurants, the golf courses, the shops and the bars. Young or old. Male or Female.

I would bet that if the Bidwill's announced they were selling the team this offseason ticket sales would skyrocket. This doesn't mean that the Bidwill's are to blame. It just means that the majority of the people in the United States believe the Bidwills are to blame. I even heard that from a scout for another NFL team I was talking to at an Austin golf course last month.

 

[KingofCards]

That is true, alot of people claim that they will not support the Cards due to the Bidwills, However, I believe that to be an excuse, first for transplants,that refuse to accept Arizona as their true home and hold on to the place they left by rooting for their old teams.

The lifelong Arizonans that say, its the Bidwills, unfortunately, have no self-esteem. Rooting for a winning team and joining a huge fan base is their self cure for this issue.

"I have always been a Steelers fan." "I always liked the Chargers." "I've liked the Colts since Baltimore"

"Dude last year you said the same thing about the Panthers!"

 

[john h]

That is true, alot of people claim that they will not support the Cards due to the Bidwills, However, I believe that to be an excuse, first for transplants,that refuse to accept Arizona as their true home and hold on to the place they left by rooting for their old teams.

The lifelong Arizonans that say, its the Bidwills, unfortunately, have no self-esteem. Rooting for a winning team and joining a huge fan base is their self cure for this issue.

"I have always been a Steelers fan." "I always liked the Chargers." "I've liked the Colts since Baltimore"

"Dude last year you said the same thing about the Panthers!"

The family as owned the team for ever and we have not been to a championship game since 1947. Who would you attribute the teams failures to. Certainly not bad luck. No team has 50 years of bad luck to the extent we have. The owner: (1) Moved the team from Chicago to St Louis to Airizona. He moved from St Louis to AZ with no guarantee of a new stadium. That was a terrible businesss decision. (2) The owner has hired all the GM's and Head Coaches/ (3) The owners business practices of dealing with player contracts has been out of step with the rest of the league for decades (4) It has always appeared up until recently that Mr. Bidwill always made the final decision on player personal and coaches. One recent year we were trying to get a contract signed for a key player and he was on vacation in Europe and we could not get the deal done. (5) He fired one of the greatest offensive head coaches the NFL has ever seen. (6) He hired Bud Wilkinson out of Oklahoma who tried to run the Oklahoma offense using the QB option in the NFL. That really worked well. (7) It has always appeared that the Cardinals GM's had much less authority than the typical GM. (8) He apprears to not have a good football business plan or know how to delegate authority or pass on some real responsibility to allow a good plan to work. Mr. Bidwill owns this team and can do what he likes and will continue to do so. In the long run he and he only is ultimately responsible for the "long term" failure of this team. If he were a CEO of a public corporation he would have been fired 40 years ago. I know we can change none of this but when we analyize where we are and what we can do to improve we must look at how we got here and just what our owner will allow us to do. Give him a free pass and say 50 years of bad luck. Hardly. I am supprised Phoenix did not tell him build a winner and we will build you a stadium. College football can fill that stadium and a winning Cardinal team could have put 60,000 people in the seats.

 

[WizardOfAz]

College football can fill that stadium .

Not very often in the past 10 years, has it?

 

[Lex]

During this years college football season, ASU turned down the opportunity to get a national TV game at Sun Devil Stadium, and the hundreds of thousands of dollars that come with it, because they refused to change the game time from night to daytime. They said they did it because the fans would revolt if they had to go to a fall day game. ASU plays at night, the NFL doesn't, unless we can convince the league to let us play all our games on Sunday or Monday night.

People that don't live here will never understand this.

The Bidwill family doesn't suit up, the players do.

John, your contention that we should have told Bidwill to Build us a winner, and we'll build you a stadium is laughable at best. That's what St Louise did, Bidwill called that bluff and continued the westward expansion of the NFL that the team started when they moved to Stl. Then the fine folks in st louis sold their souls to a show girl and her team from la la land, and built a stadium before they even had a team. How stupid does THAT make them look?

I guess the best question is, if as a Cardinal fan, you truly believe that as long as Bidwill owns the team, they will never win because they never have ...why do you continue to follow them?

I choose to believe that our day will come soon, and when that day comes, we will be in the same division as st louise, and they will be our female dog for decades.

 

[BigRedMO]

Segment on Washington Nationals on ESPN yesterday talked about how NFL was too smart to let a team move to a city without stadium deal in hand. Those analysts obviously dont remember the Cardinals move from St. Louis. Bidwill's decision to move to Phoenix without stadium deal was in my opinion one of the most boneheaded strategic decisions made in sports history. The Cards were not this consistently bad in St. Louis. They had three players from the St. Louis days in the Hall of Fame (Wilson, Smith, Dierdorf). Several other very good players. Of the guys who have played for the team in Arizona I only see Aneas(sp?) Williams as having a chance at the HOF. If he goes I predict he will go as a Ram. In St. Louis they fielded some good teams and were competitive in a lot of their down years. Bidwill defintely needed to get new stadium in St. Louis or to pick a market that would give him a stadium. At that time there were more suiters than just Arizona. Bidwill's mistake set the organization back 20 years and may have damn near killed the organization. I am still not sure this team will survive in present form owned by same family.

 

[john h]

During this years college football season, ASU turned down the opportunity to get a national TV game at Sun Devil Stadium, and the hundreds of thousands of dollars that come with it, because they refused to change the game time from night to daytime. They said they did it because the fans would revolt if they had to go to a fall day game. ASU plays at night, the NFL doesn't, unless we can convince the league to let us play all our games on Sunday or Monday night.

People that don't live here will never understand this.

The Bidwill family doesn't suit up, the players do.

John, your contention that we should have told Bidwill to Build us a winner, and we'll build you a stadium is laughable at best. That's what St Louise did, Bidwill called that bluff and continued the westward expansion of the NFL that the team started when they moved to Stl. Then the fine folks in st louis sold their souls to a show girl and her team from la la land, and built a stadium before they even had a team. How stupid does THAT make them look?

I guess the best question is, if as a Cardinal fan, you truly believe that as long as Bidwill owns the team, they will never win because they never have ...why do you continue to follow them?

I choose to believe that our day will come soon, and when that day comes, we will be in the same division as st louise, and they will be our female dog for decades.

Since the Cards left St Louis they have won a super bowl and never lost money. It never was a St Louis problem it was a Cardinal problem. Major league baseball understands in the proposed stadium in Washington. The Washington Mayor tried and change the deal to where MLB would have to come up with half the money. They said you signed a deal and if you cannot live up to it there are half dozen cities standing by and ready to build a stadium. I think most people clearly understand Bidwill made a big time mistake by not insuring a new stadium "in wiriting". There were any number of cities that would have built him a stadium.

 

[john h]

Since the Cards left St Louis they have won a super bowl and never lost money. It never was a St Louis problem it was a Cardinal problem. Major league baseball understands in the proposed stadium in Washington. The Washington Mayor tried and change the deal to where MLB would have to come up with half the money. They said you signed a deal and if you cannot live up to it there are half dozen cities standing by and ready to build a stadium. I think most people clearly understand Bidwill made a big time mistake by not insuring a new stadium "in wiriting". There were any number of cities that would have built him a stadium.

I continue to follow the Cardinals because I have and continue to be a Cardinal fan since 1945. I will always be a Cardinal fan. That does not mean I cannot be critical of what I perceive as serious problems. That is what this board is about. It is not a place to strictly come and cheer. It is a place to discuss both positive and negative aspects of this team, management, and ownership

 

[john h]

That is true, alot of people claim that they will not support the Cards due to the Bidwills, However, I believe that to be an excuse, first for transplants,that refuse to accept Arizona as their true home and hold on to the place they left by rooting for their old teams.

The lifelong Arizonans that say, its the Bidwills, unfortunately, have no self-esteem. Rooting for a winning team and joining a huge fan base is their self cure for this issue.

"I have always been a Steelers fan." "I always liked the Chargers." "I've liked the Colts since Baltimore"

"Dude last year you said the same thing about the Panthers!"

I really do not know how one can change from being a fan of one team to another. I saw my first NFL game with the Bears and Cards at Wrigley in 1945. I saw my fir MLB game the same year with the Cubs at Wrigley. I immediately became a Cardinal fan and a Cub fan and will always be regardless of their records. Both of these teams have been to football and baseball hell. The Cubs are clearly turning it around mainly due to the Tribune allowing them to spend the money necessary to build a team. It is paying off big time. I used to attend Cubs games with only 6000 in attendance. Last year they averaged sold out plus standing room and the same will occur this year. Instead of the bottom of the league in salary we will go over 100 million in salaries. The Tribune is making more money, the team is more than competitive, and they are expanding Wrigley by building the bleachers back out over the sidewalks in left and right field. They had to build a competitive team and then the fans came big time.