Amare's role

[panfolk]

Please explain your rationale and what I left out. I voted diversify because I don't want to see a repeat of 04/05's offense at the expense of Diaw and others. This year's team was my favorite to watch in the last 10 years, easy. This is not intended as an Amare bash, merely a barometer of sorts.

 

[Diamondback Jay]

I would certainly make Amare a main focal point of the offense, however the championship teams have balance.

Obviously, you ride your best horse to try to win a Kentucky Derby, but again there are many good players on this team that can more than hold their own, so it should be Diversity all the way.

 

[Chaplin]

It's going to vary--that's the nature of the beast. A lot will depend on matchups, and of course, the injury situation. Against a team like the Spurs, even though Amare traditionally has very good games against them, you'd think a guy like Boris Diaw would be the deciding factor. In a game against the Mavs, Amare would be the factor. Against the Lakers, Nash would be the factor.

So it's hard to really have a set mentality about your offense--and that is precisely why this offense is so wide open--look at last year where the offense would go all over the place, both inside and outside. Just imagine if Amare was on this team--if we played with the same gameplan we've played with this year, we'd still be steamrolling through the league.

 

[CaptainInsano]

Even in the playoffs if amare goes ballistic and scores 40 there is still 60-70 points leftover for others to score to reach 100-110. We just won't need 30+ points from diaw to be able to keep up with the mavs or spurs anymore.

When no one had a big game we lost in these series. With amare it will be rare that no one on the whole team has a big game.

 

[panfolk]

It's going to vary--that's the nature of the beast. A lot will depend on matchups, and of course, the injury situation. Against a team like the Spurs, even though Amare traditionally has very good games against them, you'd think a guy like Boris Diaw would be the deciding factor. In a game against the Mavs, Amare would be the factor. Against the Lakers, Nash would be the factor.

So it's hard to really have a set mentality about your offense--and that is precisely why this offense is so wide open--look at last year where the offense would go all over the place, both inside and outside. Just imagine if Amare was on this team--if we played with the same gameplan we've played with this year, we'd still be steamrolling through the league.

Well stated. There's something nonflammatory I'm trying to grasp but I guess I'll just have to be blunt and hope everyone recognizes an effort at earnest discussion:

To what degree do you encourage Amare to believe he is the focal point of the team. He is a deciding factor in our competitiveness but will it be disruptive to the success we had this year without him? Could Diaw have emerged? Would Nash again be the MVP? Dunno. I personally think Amare needs to be as much of a role player as Nash can be. Do your job, don't get selfish, trust your teammates, etc. I honestly never like to see a player "take over a game." I like Lebron and Nash and Wade and other superstars who can get a great statline while putting the team first. I do not think it was right in the other thread to compare Amare to Kobe (even if it was in doubt, and even with the miraculous turnaround Kobe showed in the playoffs). I just wonder if he can come back and not be "the man". Honestly, I'd trade him for the ability to get a solid roleplayer or two who could put us over the hump (say for both Bulls picks so we could get Aldridge and Farmar) in the next couple years. Obviously I don't see what Coach D'A sees in practices and whatnot and my opinion is merely for entertainment purposes but hey whaddya think?

 

[Gaddabout]

If Amare's healthy, I see no reason to stop what the Suns were doing before he got hurt. Thirty points from Amare is more effective than 30 points from Diaw, simply because Amare draws double and triple teams. Diaw was dynamite, but I never got the impression the Mavs were concerned about him. They felt he could never do enough damage to hurt them. Diaw never drew double teams. I think it's because they knew Diaw probably wasn't capable of 50 or 60 points. Amare is.

All that said, I hope Amare has improved his passing game.

 

[jibikao]

BE HEALTHY is the prority. Get used to those knees.

 

[CaptainInsano]

If Amare's healthy, I see no reason to stop what the Suns were doing before he got hurt. Thirty points from Amare is more effective than 30 points from Diaw, simply because Amare draws double and triple teams. Diaw was dynamite, but I never got the impression the Mavs were concerned about him. They felt he could never do enough damage to hurt them. Diaw never drew double teams. I think it's because they knew Diaw probably wasn't capable of 50 or 60 points. Amare is.

All that said, I hope Amare has improved his passing game.

I think part of that not capable of 50-60 points thing is how many soft or completely botched layups he does, with amare back in the day that ball was slammed through the hoop with authority. Hope it is like that next season.

 

[panfolk]

All that said, I hope Amare has improved his passing game.

I guess as long as we have Nash and Diaw making the decisions Amare's 50 point nights will result in wins more often than stagnant offense. Anybody know if D'A has ever made comments on Amare's fundamentals? I'd be curious to know what they were. And yes, I dearly hope Amare is more willing and able to pass out of the double team this coming season.

 

[Covert Rain]

Everything depends on health. However, it will run through Nash as always. However, Amare will be the first option and they will expect to Amare to pass out of double teams etc. Same as before.

However, I hope next year they will anticipate teams taking them out of there run and gun offense and have more half court offensive sets. It has only taking D'Antoni only 2 playoff runs to figure that out.

 

[panfolk]

There's an East Valley Tribune article on the suns.com site that quotes D'A as saying something like: Nash shouldn't have to run around like a crazy man to make every shot happen, next year we'll make sure that doesn't happen.

Not sure how that affects this thread but I just thought it was awesome of D'A to recognize something that frustrated the hell out of me at times. I'm sure there's a way to make that sound impersonal, but I'm lazy (yet somehow prolific) on my day off.

 

[Mainstreet]

There's an East Valley Tribune article on the suns.com site that quotes D'A as saying something like: Nash shouldn't have to run around like a crazy man to make every shot happen, next year we'll make sure that doesn't happen.

Not sure how that affects this thread but I just thought it was awesome of D'A to recognize something that frustrated the hell out of me at times. I'm sure there's a way to make that sound impersonal, but I'm lazy (yet somehow prolific) on my day off.

So true. If Nash had a healthy Amare to pass the ball to inside, it would greatly reduce Nash's burden of creating most of the offense.

Now the question is, how will Amare play next season? I guess this may be answered by his workouts with Team USA. If he is not able to practice and play well with Team USA... then the worry begins.

I'm hoping for the best but I like to always prepare for the worst. I guess I am a born worrier. Certainly the Suns are not going to be able to acquire a player with Amare's abiliity (prior to his injuries), so here's hoping for the best. I really want that Championship.

Edit: I voted diversify but not necessarily because I want it this way.

 

[nowagimp]

I'd say whatever the defense gives. If they strongly defend the 3pt shots, use Nash(or Diaw) and Amare in the pick and roll, otherwise bombs away. I like the idea of going more to Amare at the end of games(and maybe the end of quarters) as he's easily the best go to guy.

 

[justAndy]

if Shawn Marion is reading this thread, he's gonna be pissed you're not talking about HIM...

 

[George O'Brien]

The Suns offense has three phases:

Transition - Mostly guards and Marion getting layups or shooting threes

Early offense - high pick and roll plus kick out plays

Late offense - pass around and hope someone is open

Amare's role in the transition is secondary. He's great as a finisher, but more important as a threat so teams pack the paint and leave the Suns shooters open.

Amare is a big deal in the early offense as long as the pick and roll is such a big part of the offense. It is possible to stop the Nash to Stoudemire pick and roll ONLY with help. This leaves someone open almost every time for an open three. Does kicking the ball out reduce Amare's role? Hardly.

What is likely to evolve the most will be the late offense. In the 04-05 season the solution was to get the ball to Amare with 5 or 6 seconds left and expect him to get fouled going to the basket. This is still a great play, but the Suns have a lot more options.

From all reports, Amare is now a pretty good outside shooter. If that translates into floor play, he may assist in spreading the floor. A Nash to Diaw pick and roll would add the extra kicker of Diaw passing to Amare when the defender gets pulled.

OR, how about Diaw at the high post...

Should we begin the countdown to the start of the season now.

 

[slinslin]

If they want to win they better make Amare the go-to guy again or they will lose in the playoffs again because they can't make a shot for 5 minutes and lose their leads. Imo once you have a good lead you slow it down and go to Amare as much as possible to keep the lead.
The Suns have to learn to play in the halfcourt as well as in the open court.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

If they want to win they better make Amare the go-to guy again or they will lose in the playoffs again because they can't make a shot for 5 minutes and lose their leads. Imo once you have a good lead you slow it down and go to Amare as much as possible to keep the lead.
The Suns have to learn to play in the halfcourt as well as in the open court.

this is very close to getting the NBA right on.

notice that the suns had leads in all but 1 of the 4 losses into the second half.
1.Often Dallas could call a timeout and make an immediate run at the suns, mainly on three point plays and calls going for Dirk.
2. Phoenix could never slow down Dallas in these losses they could only hope to out shoot them from the field, which just fuels runs if you are off and when they are off you have game 5 and 6.
3. Having Amare is going to be key in the late playoff games because he can get to the line at will, the refs respect his game and call fouls. This does two things, gets their guys in major foul trouble and stops runs like 12-2 and look more like 12-8. These two are huge components to winning in the 4th quarter in the NBA playoffs.

So if Phoenix is going to keep this core of players Amare I think fits perfect as the go to guy for the very reason that he will get fouled and Steve Nash won't get any calls. So it's not a matter of slowing down it's more of lets get the ball to Amare down low or use the pick and roll and get him to the line.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think if the Suns had a healthy Amare this year, Nash would not have to get so wore down trying to create offense for the Suns.

Also if the Suns want to prolong Nash's career, at some time they are going to have to be more selective in their running. They will need a go-to player inside if this is to be successful.

I've always thought that Nash might be able to play until about 40, like John Stockton did, if he had a go-to-man like Karl Malone (which is hopefully still Amare).

It's going to be interesting if D'Antoni insists on running the ball if Nash slows down or if Amare loses any of his mobility. There is no reason the Suns cannot run a half court offense if all their players are healthy. I wonder if D'Antoni can adjust or will he always want players to fit his system when those player's skills change?

 

[George O'Brien]

I think if the Suns had a healthy Amare this year, Nash would not have to get so wore down trying to create offense for the Suns.

Also if the Suns want to prolong Nash's career, at some time they are going to have to be more selective in their running. They will need a go-to player inside if this is to be successful.

I've always thought that Nash might be able to play until about 40, like John Stockton did, if he had a go-to-man like Karl Malone (which is hopefully still Amare).

It's going to be interesting if D'Antoni insists on running the ball if Nash slows down or if Amare loses any of his mobility. There is no reason the Suns cannot run a half court offense if all their players are healthy. I wonder if D'Antoni can adjust or will he always want players to fit his system when those player's skills change?

Running is not what wears Nash down. It's running into people and them running into him. Leave him alone and he'll run all day.

 

[Mainstreet]

Running is not what wears Nash down. It's running into people and them running into him. Leave him alone and he'll run all day.

I agree, but getting banged around is really part of the way Nash presently plays the game. He will need a go-to player sooner or later (or a really good backup) to reduce the wear and tear on his body.

I keep referring to John Stockton (although I am not a Utah fan) of the way Nash could evolve his game into selective running with a good inside player to whom he could feed the ball to create offense. This should and hopefully will be Amare.

I do have to admit I worry about the old Amare coming back next season. Let's hope he is as devastating as ever, but I would settle for him being an Elton Brand type player.

 

[Errntknght]

Diversify, of course, because we have the players to do it. Diaw is almost as tough a matchup as Amare and when he draws a defender that can't deal with him, go to him often. With his passing he's a more varied threat than Amare so run a good bit of the offense through him - the chances are that he'll get Amare some easy points with his passes, while the reverse isn't so likely. Amare will help Boris by drawing the teams best big defender and Boris' defender will probably try to help on Amare's drives, leaving him open for the mid-range J or to follow in for the offensive rebound. Of course, when Boris drives and Amare's defender elects to help then the situation is reversed and just as bad for the defense. Probably worse because if Amare slices to the hoop Boris will get him the ball for an alley-oop dunk.

I think we will have several go to options and over the course of the season we'll work out which are the best against various defenses.

My guess is that we will wind up playing a double mid-high post with Diaw on the left and Amare on the right - and either one moving into the low post when he has an advantageous matchup. I also expect that James Jones will get quite a bit of PT in place of Shawn because of his outside shooting. The middle is going to be more conjested and there isn't going to be anyone setting picks for him - except when KT is on the floor.

 

[cly2tw]

My guess is that we will wind up playing a double mid-high post with Diaw on the left and Amare on the right - and either one moving into the low post when he has an advantageous matchup. I also expect that James Jones will get quite a bit of PT in place of Shawn because of his outside shooting. The middle is going to be more conjested and there isn't going to be anyone setting picks for him - except when KT is on the floor.

To me it sounds like that if we replace Marion with an average SF of good 3pt shots like Battier, we'd still be win the same way, without the complaints about no respect.

 

[Joe Mama]

Diversify, of course, because we have the players to do it. Diaw is almost as tough a matchup as Amare and when he draws a defender that can't deal with him, go to him often. With his passing he's a more varied threat than Amare so run a good bit of the offense through him - the chances are that he'll get Amare some easy points with his passes, while the reverse isn't so likely. Amare will help Boris by drawing the teams best big defender and Boris' defender will probably try to help on Amare's drives, leaving him open for the mid-range J or to follow in for the offensive rebound. Of course, when Boris drives and Amare's defender elects to help then the situation is reversed and just as bad for the defense. Probably worse because if Amare slices to the hoop Boris will get him the ball for an alley-oop dunk.

I think we will have several go to options and over the course of the season we'll work out which are the best against various defenses.

My guess is that we will wind up playing a double mid-high post with Diaw on the left and Amare on the right - and either one moving into the low post when he has an advantageous matchup. I also expect that James Jones will get quite a bit of PT in place of Shawn because of his outside shooting. The middle is going to be more conjested and there isn't going to be anyone setting picks for him - except when KT is on the floor.

I agree. Amare and Boris will be a handful for almost any NBA team. Unfortunately I agree that Shawn Marion isn't the best fit upfront with them. Tim Thomas and/or James Jones would seem to fit better provided Jones finds his shooting touch.

Of course we'll have to see what Amare Stoudemire actually looks like when he returns.

Joe Mama

 

[frdbtr]

The Suns offense has three phases:

Transition - Mostly guards and Marion getting layups or shooting threes

Early offense - high pick and roll plus kick out plays

Late offense - pass around and hope someone is open

Amare's role in the transition is secondary. He's great as a finisher, but more important as a threat so teams pack the paint and leave the Suns shooters open.

Amare is a big deal in the early offense as long as the pick and roll is such a big part of the offense. It is possible to stop the Nash to Stoudemire pick and roll ONLY with help. This leaves someone open almost every time for an open three. Does kicking the ball out reduce Amare's role? Hardly.

What is likely to evolve the most will be the late offense. In the 04-05 season the solution was to get the ball to Amare with 5 or 6 seconds left and expect him to get fouled going to the basket. This is still a great play, but the Suns have a lot more options.

From all reports, Amare is now a pretty good outside shooter. If that translates into floor play, he may assist in spreading the floor. A Nash to Diaw pick and roll would add the extra kicker of Diaw passing to Amare when the defender gets pulled.

OR, how about Diaw at the high post...

Should we begin the countdown to the start of the season now.

Good post, it amazes me how short everyones memory is on Amare, he is going to make the offense better not worse. Outside shooters will be more open because teams have to stop amare, Amare will get more opportunities at the basket when the shooters start draining 3's. I can't wait, next year will be the Suns year, with Amare healthy with this lineup it would have been a cakewalk into the finals and Shaq would be a spectator trying to keep up with the speed of phoenix. Playing the heat in the finals would be 5-4 of offense since shaq would just be crossing half court right about the time that Amare throws down over Haslem or Wade.

 

[Skkorpion]

Only Mainstreet among you realizes we may never see the old Amare again. The planning should be all about what to do with no Amare or, more likely, a gimpy one.