An Offer To Rework Fitz's Deal - Darren Urban

[40yearfan]

On the other hand the Cardinals should make him a decent offer prior to FA. Of course his agent will reject it. However, then Pace will, perhaps, be less inclined to accept the first good offer that some other team throws at him!

I agree. The question is whether we have done that or not or if we are in the process of doing it.

 

[Stout]

Yeah, we do seem to be moving at a snail's pace (pun intented) with everything thus far. I'm worried, sure, but I won't panic yet.

To be a little positive, maybe we haven't tagged Dansby yet because we're trying to get him a contract. I know it is probable, but you never know.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

It takes two to tango. If I was Pace's agent, I wouldn't let him accept a contract from the Cards until he had at least tested the FA market.

If that is what Pace wants then I would let him do so.

It is not like the guy is an All-Pro. He had one SOLID season. He wasn't even our starter going into the season before Okeafor went down.

If some team wants to pay Calvin Pace a huge sum of money to play OLB then they can go right ahead since he has a whopping 1.5 season of experience.

If some team wants to pay Calvin Pace a huge sum of money to play DE then they can go right ahead. He is an AWFUL DE for a 4-3 system and history has shown us that.

The best oppourtunity for Pace is here in Arizona. He has the best stabilty here, the best chance to get playing time here, and should get a good amount of money from the Cardinals to stay here.

If he gets greedy then the Cardinals can let him go. He can be replaced in FA quite easily in my opinion.

 

[joeshmo]

If he gets greedy then the Cardinals can let him go. He can be replaced in FA quite easily in my opinion.

Who?

 

[DaisyCutter]

If he gets greedy then the Cardinals can let him go. He can be replaced in FA quite easily in my opinion.

I think you've said this twice now. What name do you have in mind, though? I was looking at the FA list, and say what you want about Calvin Pace, he has unique physical gifts. There aren't any 6'2", 270 lbs OLBs that are going to be available in the free agent pool.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Awesome new about Fitz. I agree with Graves that keeping Fitzgerald around is way more important that any other contract situations. Especially when we can just tag Dansby, and Dansby will be happy with it.

We spent plenty of time talking about A.P. and how dominant he is. Well, Fitzgerald has that ability to completely dominate a game and did so during this last season in a few games. Fitzgerald has to be the top priority.


As for Pace ?
If that is what Pace wants then I would let him do so.

It is not like the guy is an All-Pro. He had one SOLID season. He wasn't even our starter going into the season before Okeafor went down.

If some team wants to pay Calvin Pace a huge sum of money to play OLB then they can go right ahead since he has a whopping 1.5 season of experience.

If some team wants to pay Calvin Pace a huge sum of money to play DE then they can go right ahead. He is an AWFUL DE for a 4-3 system and history has shown us that.

The best oppourtunity for Pace is here in Arizona. He has the best stabilty here, the best chance to get playing time here, and should get a good amount of money from the Cardinals to stay here.

If he gets greedy then the Cardinals can let him go. He can be replaced in FA quite easily in my opinion.

But don't get me wrong if Graves and the Cardinals can find a way to keep him in Arizona I would be pysched. I just don't feel it is the end of the world if Pace leaves. Actually I think Pace will be the one who suffers the worse if it happens. Maybe not short term but long term.

 

[joeshmo]

I think you've said this twice now. What name do you have in mind, though? I was looking at the FA list, and say what you want about Calvin Pace, he has unique physical gifts. There aren't any 6'2", 270 lbs OLBs that are going to be available in the free agent pool.

Or replace 93 tackles, 6.5 Sacks, 6 Tackles for loss, 6 pass defended, 1 FF, 2 FR, and 1 INT. That wont cost more then what Pace would actually make in free agency himself.

 

[CardLogic]

Or replace 93 tackles, 6.5 Sacks, 6 Tackles for loss, 6 pass defended, 1 FF, 2 FR, and 1 INT. That wont cost more then what Pace would actually make in free agency himself.

Agreed!

That's exactly why the Cardinals should make Pace a fair offer now, if they haven't already; in order that he doesn't get wow'ed by an offer from another club and sign it before knowing what the Cardinals are willing to do.

 

[DaisyCutter]

Or replace 93 tackles, 6.5 Sacks, 6 Tackles for loss, 6 pass defended, 1 FF, 2 FR, and 1 INT. That wont cost more then what Pace would actually make in free agency himself.

Of the mileage you'll save with readily spelling aging Okeafor and Berry... or whatever he brings to the table on special teams (unusual size and speed)... Pace is a priority free agent. If he were with another franchise, people here would be saying that he's exactly the kind of player the Cards should be pursuing.

Graves is going to have to pay the price for dragging his feet on the contract issues during the season. There's no reason that a Fitz and Dansby contract shouldn't be in place right now.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Who?

Pace.

Sorry. You are correct that is quite vague.



There is a good debate about Pace going on here, I advise we pick our thread to quabble over this.

http://arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=106442&page=2

Or maybe a mod can combine the two since they are kinda attacking the same topic.

 

[DaisyCutter]

If he gets greedy then the Cardinals can let him go. He can be replaced in FA quite easily in my opinion.

By whom? Please let us know... Here are the pending FA Linebackers:

Terrell Suggs
Lance Briggs
Karlos Dansby
Michael Boley (RFA)
Landon Johnson
Tedy Bruschi
Clark Haggans
Calvin Pace
Brandon Chillar
Kawika Mitchell
Demorrio Williams
Boss Bailey
Chris Clemons
Victor Hobson
Junior Seau

Here are the pending DEs:


Jared Allen
Justin Smith
Bobby McCray
Antwan Odom
Chris Canty (RFA)
Travis LaBoy
Mike Rucker
Antonio Smith (RFA)
John Engelberger
Demetric Evans
Chauncey Davis (RFA)
Ebenezer Ekuban
N.D. Kalu
Jimmy Wilkerson
Corey Smith

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Or replace 93 tackles, 6.5 Sacks, 6 Tackles for loss, 6 pass defended, 1 FF, 2 FR, and 1 INT. That wont cost more then what Pace would actually make in free agency himself.

I agree that Pace a good season. But that is just one season in his career.

It calls into question whether this season is a fluke and as soon as Pace gets his new contract he will show the same sub-par production he showed in the past.

I am not saying Graves has dealt with this situation well, but there are two sides to every story. If Pace made his mind up that he wants to test free agency then nothing is going to stop him. Unless we vastly overpay Pace and that is not going to happen.

Furthermore, Graves has bigger issues to deal with. You cannot question the fact that Fitzgerald's, and Dansby's contract status's are WAY more important than dealing with Calvin Pace.

As for a FA to replace Pace? Daisycutter you got me there. I don't have an answer for you regarding that as of right now. I think Clark Haggins (who I don't like very much) is a free agent this year from the Steelers. I think he could do the same job Pace is doing. But that is off the top of my head. I will have to look into it more.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Daisycutter can we pick one thread and debate there. I already answered your question in the

"How hard is it, Graves?" Thread.

Or can we get a mod to combine the two threads since they are basically talking abou the same thing.

But in regards to that list, thank you by the way, I will take a look and tell you what I think.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Well, to answer your question of who could come in to replace Calvin Pace:

The first name that jumps out at me on that Free agent list is Victor Hobson. I had no idea the guy was available. He has been playing in a 3-4 defense for a couple of seasons and has been very productive. I would go as far to say that I think he would be more productive than Pace in our defense. (just my opinion of course).


Clark Haggans and Brandon Chillar are two other that I think would replace Calvin Pace if he left. But in both of those cases I would rather have Calvin Pace. But remember the Cardinals do not control that situation, Calvin Pace does. If Calvin Pace leaves then, regardless, we have to replace him.

There are my three names. That I would know of. I would imagine the Cardinals have a longer list of names.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Now to stoke the fire about signing FA even more ?

I think it is crazy the Cardinals don't sign Antonio Smith to a long term deal as soon as possible, or they will be going through a situation like they are with Pace all over again.

In my opinion Antonio Smith is a very valuable player for the Cardinals system. He could be resigned for a modest price right now, at least I would believe he could

 

[joeshmo]

It calls into question whether this season is a fluke and as soon as Pace gets his new contract he will show the same sub-par production he showed in the past.

Fluke or finally put into a position that best plays into his skill set?

Furthermore, Graves has bigger issues to deal with. You cannot question the fact that Fitzgerald's, and Dansby's contract status's are WAY more important than dealing with Calvin Pace.

If that is an excuse for Graves then he is the lamest GM in the league. If he can only work on no more then 2 deals at a time, he has some major issues. Working harder on a few other contracts doesnt preclude you from working on 10 other things.

As for a FA to replace Pace? Daisycutter you got me there. I don't have an answer for you regarding that as of right now. I think Clark Haggins (who I don't like very much) is a free agent this year from the Steelers. I think he could do the same job Pace is doing. But that is off the top of my head. I will have to look into it more.

As a rule and it is a bad rule our FO generally doesnt sign anyone over the age of 30. Which is why Faneca is just a dream probably.

 

[joeshmo]

The first name that jumps out at me on that Free agent list is Victor Hobson. I had no idea the guy was available. He has been playing in a 3-4 defense for a couple of seasons and has been very productive. I would go as far to say that I think he would be more productive than Pace in our defense. (just my opinion of course).

Clark Haggans and Brandon Chillar are two other that I think would replace Calvin Pace if he left. But in both of those cases I would rather have Calvin Pace. But remember the Cardinals do not control that situation, Calvin Pace does. If Calvin Pace leaves then, regardless, we have to replace him.

There are my three names. That I would know of. I would imagine the Cardinals have a longer list of names.

Haggans I will give you, but Chillar has never even had an average season yet, and hasnt even shown he can have an average season. Hobson has only ever had 1 average season and a horrible season last year. Cheap yes, but being able to produce like Pace produced in this defense I think is going to be a very hard sell. Hobson as a backup sure but we better hope that Berry and Okeafer are healthy and dont get hurt.

Will be interesting to see what we have offered Pace, what he is asking for, and what he will end up getting. If I remember correctly in a recent article the last offers for Dansby and Pace was 8 Mill gauranteed for Dansby, and 5 Mill for Pace. If that article was correct then I can see why both deals are not done yet. Anyone remember that article I know there was one and I could be wrong on the amounts.

 

[DaisyCutter]

As for Haggans, why don't you ask Kansas City (Kendrell Bell) or Miami (Joey Porter) whether or not the Pittsburgh Steelers allow productive players to leave Heinz Field?

Pace is still on the upside of his career. He's still getting better. It'll be interesting to see who picks him up and at what cost. It's all well and good to say that you want to be a Cardinal for your career, but when free agency opens, all bets are off.

 

[joeshmo]

As for Haggans, why don't you ask Kansas City (Kendrell Bell) or Miami (Joey Porter) whether or not the Pittsburgh Steelers allow productive players to leave Heinz Field?

Valid Point. Considering LB's. Pitt has let good players leave but their LB's usually dont leave to go on to bigger better things.

 

[DaisyCutter]

Valid Point. Considering LB's. Pitt has let good players leave but their LB's usually dont leave to go on to bigger better things.

Oh, you can probably add Philly to that list, too. Levon Kirkland didn't do a lot after the Steelers let him go, either.

Pittsburgh just doesn't let a lot of productive players leave via free agency. The safety that they let leave for Tennessee did very well last season, but that's almost the exception that proves the rule.

More to add to the list: OG Keydrick Vincent (Ravens), OG/OT Oliver Ross (Cardinals)... I know that they had a WR leave that was good as a Steeler but stank it up for some team (the Jags?) once he left... Wasn't there a high-profile DE or DT that left in the past couple seasons? I can't remember.

Say what you want about the Steelers being overly frugal--I know it drives some of their fans crazy--but they have one of the savviest front offices in the NFL. Maybe the most savvy.

 

[CardLogic]

I know that they had a WR leave that was good as a Steeler but stank it up for some team...

Plaxico hasn't done too poorly with the Giants...

The hallmark of the Steeler's (Cowher's) coaching staff has been putting their players in situations where they will be successful. Perhaps is not that the player isn't the same, but rather not being used the same once they have left Pittsburgh.

At any rate, I hope that getting the most out of your players is a trait that Whisenhunt (and his staff) will emulate in Arizona.

 

[DaisyCutter]

Plaxico is another great example, but I remember the talk being that Burress wasn't welcome back to the Steelers because the coaching staff felt that Ben Roethlisberger was relying too much on just hucking the ball downfield to him and not executing the offense as it was designed.

Plaxico was on the market for an unusually long time that season, and I think he ended up settling with the Giants for a somewhat below-market contract. I think that he's one of the 5 best WRs in the NFC--really, I'd be interested to see what would happen if he and Larry Fitzgerald traded places.

But that not the WR that I'm thinking of. I can't believe that I can't remember his name! He was a little guy... maybe a former first-round pick... Ah, Drafthistory.com saves the day again. It was Troy Edwards. Well, wait. He wasn't very good in Pittsburgh, either. Maybe it wasn't him...

Also, Antwan Randle-El hasn't worked out very well for Washington.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

As for Haggans, why don't you ask Kansas City (Kendrell Bell) or Miami (Joey Porter) whether or not the Pittsburgh Steelers allow productive players to leave Heinz Field?

Pace is still on the upside of his career. He's still getting better. It'll be interesting to see who picks him up and at what cost. It's all well and good to say that you want to be a Cardinal for your career, but when free agency opens, all bets are off.

Well Pace really had nowhere to go but up. He was an afterthought starting the year and got the job because of injury. I worry about guys who perform ONLY in their contract year. Maybe Graves has an agreement in place with Pace's agent that the Cards will have the last shot to meet/beat any offer. I would like to keep Pace,only because we need some OLB's for depth, but, if Berry and Okeafor return healthy, he may not even start next year. I would not give him any big deal by any means. I can almost see a Marcel Shipp type scenario. He'll hit the open market, see very little interest, and re-sign with the Cards at their original offer.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I would've like to hear Fitz's side of the story and what he thinks of the offer. It also sounds like Pace will be a goner. I think once a guy hits the open market they're usually gone. I think he's very replacable though.[/QUOTE]

Really! Give me a name?

Chike Okeafor for one. I think a rookie can step in and put up the numbers Pace did,maybe exceed them. It's not like we're talking about a pro-bowl player here. We're talking about a guy who was a question mark to even make the team out of training camp. Like i said before, the guy has had about 8 good games in 5 years. I find that easily replacable.

 

[DaisyCutter]

Well Pace really had nowhere to go but up. He was an afterthought starting the year and got the job because of injury. I worry about guys who perform ONLY in their contract year. Maybe Graves has an agreement in place with Pace's agent that the Cards will have the last shot to meet/beat any offer. I would like to keep Pace,only because we need some OLB's for depth, but, if Berry and Okeafor return healthy, he may not even start next year. I would not give him any big deal by any means. I can almost see a Marcel Shipp type scenario. He'll hit the open market, see very little interest, and re-sign with the Cards at their original offer.

I should say that I don't think we should re-sign Pace at any cost, but I think we could have gotten Pace to sign--say--Gerald Hayes's contract in Week 8 to get the money, but now we might get stuck with nothing or overpaying.

Marcel Shipp signed a way above-market contract last March. I have no idea why they paid that guy so much money when he hasn't contributed much in the past 5 seasons.

Linebacker is a hard position to play in the NFL. There aren't a lot of rookie strong-side backers playing today, because the responsibilities are so varied. I don't want to give Pace a Pro Bowler's salary. I don't even want to give him the salary of a very good player. I want to give him money that shows that he's a solid spot starter and depth guy.

Mostly, it seems like Rod Graves isn't working very hard on the contract front right now, and that lack of a sense of urgency is going to hurt the Cards if they can't get Fitz done before free agency opens and they have to put the franchise tag on Karlos Dansby.

Pace is as good as gone.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Fluke or finally put into a position that best plays into his skill set?

Exactly. We don't know. Why would you pay a guy top dollar on a hunch. As I have said. If we can sign him to the contract HE DESERVES then great. But to break the bank for Calvin Pace is not a good move in my opinion. We could find a replacement for him

If that is an excuse for Graves then he is the lamest GM in the league. If he can only work on no more then 2 deals at a time, he has some major issues. Working harder on a few other contracts doesnt preclude you from working on 10 other things.

It is what it is. Graves said in the Fitzgerald article on the team's website he is taking care of Fitzgerald first, and the is a good change Pace will test free agency.

As a rule and it is a bad rule our FO generally doesnt sign anyone over the age of 30. Which is why Faneca is just a dream probably.

True. How old was Bertrand Berry when we signed him ?