An Offer To Rework Fitz's Deal - Darren Urban

[Sandan]

Exactly. I'm not sure why anyone bothers responding to 40year. The Cards front office is always right; critics are always wrong. Between 40year and nidan, one would think that Rod Graves was one of the Top 5 GMs in the NFL, and not one of the 5 worst.

When you have finished throwing rocks at me Daisy, would you care to show me where I ever said that ?

I simply get tired of the drumbeat of negativity, which you seemed to be participating in. If anybody dares to disagree with the negativity they get dumped on as is shown by your last post.

 

[Sandan]

no matter what happens, you (and Nidan) always defend Rod Graves.

This statement is utterly untrue, PERIOD.

I do however react to some of the speculation that goes on here. Right now we are in pissing contest over what happens to a backup LB.

When bad things happen I get as upset as anybody, its the unfounded speculation I resist.

At least I give him a nod here and there when I think he does something right (which isn't often).

Sorry but this is pretty funny, No you don't. What you do do is trash him then find something pointless and trivial to compliment him on the point out that it is pointless and trivial. The rest of this post is a classic example.

We won 8 games this year.

There is the compliment followed by the trashing and pointing ouit that really that wasn't much of an achievement hence taking it back.

and if we had gone after more players and had more depth? Might just have won a few more, but of course, our front office is too cautious and downright timid and scared. Graves is so paralyzed of doing the wrong thing that he puts himself in a position to take far less risks. No risk=no reward, man.

Stout you may think you are even handed but trust me you are first in line to trash RG for anything anything. Its the continual negative drumbeat that I resist.

Bottom line is we won more games this year than we did last year, despite a disastrous set of injuries. I seem to remember all that counts is W vs L and this year we improved.

 

[Sandan]

I still think you are WAY overeacting stout! There is a reason that part of the article isnt quoted. If graves even said anything even remotely like that why wouldnt he just quote it and put what he really said?

Its pure conjecture on the authors part and nothing more IMHO.

Is true Shane talk about overreaction.

What is funnier I remember from the Mac days. I would see a quote in the paper from Mac and I was there to here it. The following it I would see a comment like that implying Mac had also said it unless you read carefully. I I knew damn well Mac hadn't said the extra stuff.

So unless journalistic standards have dramatically improved over the last few years the second part is just designed to stir things up.

 

[WildBB]

No excuses. Playoffs! THIS Year!

 

[Stout]

Shane, the article directly said that Graves said it. You're assuming, then, that the author lied. I'm giving the journalist the benefit of the doubt and believing him. Why should I think otherwise? You don't seem to WANT it to be true, and are acting accordingly. I very much don't want it to be true, but he said that Rod Graves 'allowed' X. Well, the author said that Graves said it. There you have it.

Nidan, perhaps you do simply defend Graves because you perceive others are overly negative. It matters not, because you always seem to defend him. As far as my bias against him, well, it's a bias against his philosophy. You are quite wrong in misrepresenting my compliments to him. I readily complimented the fact that he said he would tag Dansby. I even DEFENDED him when someone complained that it wasn't done yet, holding out hope that he might still be trying to get an extension done. And I've been happy that he seems to be making a strong push to get Fitz extended. All of this is just recently.

I complain about a lot of things with Graves, sure, because I think his policies and slow, plodding, uber-conservative approach as a GM is flat-out stupid. This is not a league that you can take your time over a period of 3-5 years to build a winner. You have to turn it around quickly, and Graves simply doesn't get that.

When he does something right, I will praise him. When he does something wrong, or I disagree with him, I will rip him. Simple. I expect to always be on the opposite side of the Graves debate with you, Nidan, because you seem to be a huge proponent of how he does business. I am not.

 

[Stout]

No excuses. Playoffs! THIS Year!

Amen. I just hope Graves does his job, and does it well, because if he doesn't, we'll still have gaping holes.

 

[Stout]

You defend him for giving roster bonuses last year to put us in better shape financially this year, but fail to point out that had he not done that we could have signed more depth, and maybe the injuries aren't as big a problem.

I find it hard to believe that teams like Pittsburgh, Indianapolis, New England, Seattle, SD, are "luckier" than us. Every year there are 15 to 16 teams better than us (sometimes more). You can always tell what teams are going to be good and have a better chance of making the playoffs just because of the FO.

 

[Shane]

Shane, the article directly said that Graves said it. You're assuming, then, that the author lied. I'm giving the journalist the benefit of the doubt and believing him. Why should I think otherwise? You don't seem to WANT it to be true, and are acting accordingly. I very much don't want it to be true, but he said that Rod Graves 'allowed' X. Well, the author said that Graves said it. There you have it.

No he didnt say that graves said that. If that was the case he would have quoted him like he did in the sentence before it.

That was a reporter taking liberties with what he writes IMO. If graves said that why wouldnt he just quote it? Because its not what he said.

 

[Stout]

No he didnt say that graves said that. If that was the case he would have quoted him like he did in the sentence before it.

That was a reporter taking liberties with what he writes IMO. If graves said that why wouldnt he just quote it? Because its not what he said.

Shane, you have got to be smarter than this. I can't believe I'm forced to lecture you on eglish comp 101, but I see that I must. You do NOT have to use direct quotes to refer to what a person has said. Let's look at the exerpt:

“His cap number will have an affect with how we proceed in free agency,” Graves said, allowing that without a new deal, the Cards not only will be hamstrung with new players but also re-signing their own free agents.

The author said that Graves 'allowed' that...blah blah blah. That means the author is saying that the following comes directly from Rod Graves. I know you'll want to simply naysay the truth, so let me give you a similar lesson to reiterate the point. This section of article is taken from the below link:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080211/pl_nm/usa_politics_dc

Clinton shuffles team to blunt Obama's momentum

Sabato said that while Clinton may be in a bit of trouble, "It's not over," he said, adding that if she does well in Ohio, Texas and Pennsylvania, she could win the nomination.

Want to tell me that this Sabato didn't say the rest of it simply because it isn't in quotation marks? If you did, you'd be dead wrong. Good lord! Just because it isn't in quotation marks doesn't mean the person didn't say it. Any freshman English comp student knows that. The reporter attributed it to Graves. If you don't want to believe it, it means you think the reporter erred in his duties, or even lied. The article says Graves said it, simple as that. I hope you don't try to deny it now.

 

[Sandan]

What Shane is trying to to explain to you Stout is that journalists take liberties with what people say.

If it isn;t actually in quotations then you can bet the coach, player, GM NEVER said it no matter how much they imply it.

I have seen them butcher what Dave Mac said. I was there for the words and they did exactly what Shane is saying. The quote s were accurate but usually placed out of context. The words near the quote were usually a comment by the author made to look like thew coach said it.

I've seen them do it Stout

 

[Sandan]

"Larry's deal certainly has a bearing on how we proceed through free agency," Graves said, "but we're prepared in one form or another to either get his deal done or not have it done.

"But the case of not being able to restructure certainly will have some implications on our roster and our opportunities in how we proceed through the off-season."

Here are the actual quotes. What is here that is odd ?

Both statements seem reasonable and obvious

 

[40yearfan]

40, are you still going to harp on the 'how long has Graves REALLY had control of the team' excuse? We hear it from a variety of places every year. I don't want to just jump on you for no reason, but I have to agree with other posters...no matter what happens, you (and Nidan) always defend Rod Graves. You give him carte blanche, no matter what he does. At least I give him a nod here and there when I think he does something right (which isn't often). We won 8 games this year...and if we had gone after more players and had more depth? Might just have won a few more, but of course, our front office is too cautious and downright timid and scared. Graves is so paralyzed of doing the wrong thing that he puts himself in a position to take far less risks. No risk=no reward, man.

And no matter what happens, you and DaisyCutter always bash RG. You have your opinion and I have mine. I think he's doing a good job and regardless of what you and others in your dark dominion say, I feel justified in defending him when someone pounces on him for something that hasn't even happened yet.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda. If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all be obese. And I seriously disagree with you about RG operating out of fear for his job. He has a plan and is following whether you, I, or anyone else doesn't like what is happening. I think it takes a real man to stick to his guns regardless of the pressure. This team is improving. Just because it isn't fast enough to suit us doesn't mean it isn't being done in the right way. Only time will tell.

 

[40yearfan]

I was wrong, 40. I guess you don't defend every and any decision that Rod Graves makes.

Back to my original point, of course: Can you name 5 GMs that are worse than Rod Graves? These questions don't arise in a vacuum.

Well let's see. Every team that finished worse than 8 and 8 this year has a worse general manager than the Cards do. I've been informed ad naseum on this board that the only thing that counts are wins and losses, so I'll fall back on the same refrain I hear every time RG does something good. In essence, that means that there are 15 other teams in the NFL with worse managers than the Cards as there were 15 teams with worse records.

Pretty simple, ain't it?

 

[Stout]

Here are the actual quotes. What is here that is odd ?

Both statements seem reasonable and obvious

What Shane actually said is that if it isn't actually in quotes, the person didn't say it. Speaking of English grammar and sentence structure, that is patently false. I won't deny that reporters take liberty, but if we start to assume that everything not in actual quotes is 100 percent false, we wouldn't know 1/100 of what we do.

The above are the actual quotes? Those are the words Graves uttered verbatim? Different, for sure, and far less inflammatory.

 

[Stout]

40year, I think we can chalk our differences up to a difference in philosophy. It seems (correct me if I'm wrong) that you favor a slow, deliberate approach, conservative in the FA market, building mainly through the draft, not taking risks, and improving in increments. Is that a fair summary? I don't want to misrepresent you.

I, on the other hand, believe that, because of today's NFL, teams don't have the time to build slowly. You have to be able to turn it around quickly, or else you won't be able to keep your core intact long enough to succeed. I believe in aggressiveness in FA to fill glaring roster needs, and then drafting the best players you can. That's how I feel.

I believe that's why you always seem to defend Graves--your philosophies mesh perfectly. I think that Graves is completely behind the times, and though I hope we can win in spite of a lethargic front office, I think he is holding us back. You clearly feel the opposite. So we disagree. Screw it, it wouldn't be fun if we all agreed

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Nice list if you are trying to make our point for us.

Thanks.

It is not the best but once again I will stress that Pace has the power to decide on what he wants to do, and not the Cardinals.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

The 2 worst GM's in the league are Matt Millen and Rod Graves. That's why you see those 2 guy's names mentioned together frequently. You never see anyone comparing Graves to the likes of Pioli, Newsome,Bruce Allen,SD's GM(Smith?), and those type of guys. In fact,other than being with the Cards for a long time, i don't see how Graves got the GM job. He's really had no success at all when it comes to personnel evaluation and that goes all the way back to his Bears days and he doesn't really manage the cap well. Corretion, he manages the cap well from the Bidwill point of view,not to field the most competitive team he could put on the field. The only time he's ever even been looked at by another organization was when Atlanta was looking years ago.But, he is a nice guy, so,i guess,that qualifies him to be the GM in some people's minds.

 

[40yearfan]

40year, I think we can chalk our differences up to a difference in philosophy. It seems (correct me if I'm wrong) that you favor a slow, deliberate approach, conservative in the FA market, building mainly through the draft, not taking risks, and improving in increments. Is that a fair summary? I don't want to misrepresent you.

I, on the other hand, believe that, because of today's NFL, teams don't have the time to build slowly. You have to be able to turn it around quickly, or else you won't be able to keep your core intact long enough to succeed. I believe in aggressiveness in FA to fill glaring roster needs, and then drafting the best players you can. That's how I feel.

I believe that's why you always seem to defend Graves--your philosophies mesh perfectly. I think that Graves is completely behind the times, and though I hope we can win in spite of a lethargic front office, I think he is holding us back. You clearly feel the opposite. So we disagree. Screw it, it wouldn't be fun if we all agreed

Hey, I'm just as impatient as you are. I'd like to have seen the Cards in the SB this year, but I am also a realist. This team has been so bad for so long that just changing players and coaches isn't going to do it. You have to change the whole dynamic of the team.

I see real progress being made. Money is being spent, we are keeping our core players and our W/L record is finally starting to improve. I credit MB and RG for these changes. We did the offense first. Now we need to keep it intact while we fix the defense and IMO, our defense is only a couple of players short of being really good. I can almost taste victory, something I haven't been able to say since the Coryell days.

 

[40yearfan]

The 2 worst GM's in the league are Matt Millen and Rod Graves. That's why you see those 2 guy's names mentioned together frequently. You never see anyone comparing Graves to the likes of Pioli, Newsome,Bruce Allen,SD's GM(Smith?), and those type of guys. In fact,other than being with the Cards for a long time, i don't see how Graves got the GM job. He's really had no success at all when it comes to personnel evaluation and that goes all the way back to his Bears days and he doesn't really manage the cap well. Corretion, he manages the cap well from the Bidwill point of view,not to field the most competitive team he could put on the field. The only time he's ever even been looked at by another organization was when Atlanta was looking years ago.But, he is a nice guy, so,i guess,that qualifies him to be the GM in some people's minds.

So in your mind, this team hasn't improved since RG has taken over? We still have the same talent level of players and our coaching staff is the joke of the NFL?

We must be talking about different teams.

 

[40yearfan]

Pace is a real litmus test for this organization and should tell us how far we've progressed as a real NFL team. The Cards should make a very concentrated effort to keep him. He is a key piece of building this team and having depth that can step in without losing a step in case of injury to a key individual. That's why it's so important to keep him.

However, and it's a big however, we cannot overpay for his services. This is where RG is going to have to earn his salary. Exactly what is Pace worth to this team? If he gets a big offer from an opposing team, where do we draw the line as to what we will pay him?

I know some on here (using hindsight) think we should have extended his contract during the season, but I agree with the Cards on this. Caution is necessary. A contract year, stepping in as a starter only after the other starters have gone down, a new position. These things all factor in to the decision to keep him or let him go.

 

[Sandan]

What Shane actually said is that if it isn't actually in quotes, the person didn't say it. Speaking of English grammar and sentence structure, that is patently false. I won't deny that reporters take liberty, but if we start to assume that everything not in actual quotes is 100 percent false, we wouldn't know 1/100 of what we do.

The above are the actual quotes? Those are the words Graves uttered verbatim? Different, for sure, and far less inflammatory.

They are the quoted parts from Somers article, would have been fairly simple for you to find. As you say nothing unreasonable there is there.

Kent tends less towards the journalistic 'additions' than most. Most are good on the quoted parts its just they structure their sentences such that you can very easily interpret their additions as quotes as well.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Pace is a real litmus test for this organization and should tell us how far we've progressed as a real NFL team. The Cards should make a very concentrated effort to keep him. He is a key piece of building this team and having depth that can step in without losing a step in case of injury to a key individual. That's why it's so important to keep him.

However, and it's a big however, we cannot overpay for his services. This is where RG is going to have to earn his salary. Exactly what is Pace worth to this team? If he gets a big offer from an opposing team, where do we draw the line as to what we will pay him?

I know some on here (using hindsight) think we should have extended his contract during the season, but I agree with the Cards on this. Caution is necessary. A contract year, stepping in as a starter only after the other starters have gone down, a new position. These things all factor in to the decision to keep him or let him go.

Agreed.

There are many many factors in signing Pace. They are being debated and valid points are arising on both ends to try and figure out what the best plan of attack should be.

As much as it is nice to have "Names" of player who could be brought in, the NFL is full of "No-name" players that given the oppourtunity can produce.

One of them might already by on our practice squad.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Shane, you have got to be smarter than this. I can't believe I'm forced to lecture you on eglish comp 101, but I see that I must. You do NOT have to use direct quotes to refer to what a person has said. Let's look at the exerpt:

“His cap number will have an affect with how we proceed in free agency,” Graves said, allowing that without a new deal, the Cards not only will be hamstrung with new players but also re-signing their own free agents.

The author said that Graves 'allowed' that...blah blah blah. That means the author is saying that the following comes directly from Rod Graves. I know you'll want to simply naysay the truth, so let me give you a similar lesson to reiterate the point. This section of article is taken from the below link:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080211/pl_nm/usa_politics_dc

Clinton shuffles team to blunt Obama's momentum

Sabato said that while Clinton may be in a bit of trouble, "It's not over," he said, adding that if she does well in Ohio, Texas and Pennsylvania, she could win the nomination.

Want to tell me that this Sabato didn't say the rest of it simply because it isn't in quotation marks? If you did, you'd be dead wrong. Good lord! Just because it isn't in quotation marks doesn't mean the person didn't say it. Any freshman English comp student knows that. The reporter attributed it to Graves. If you don't want to believe it, it means you think the reporter erred in his duties, or even lied. The article says Graves said it, simple as that. I hope you don't try to deny it now.

In your first example: The Graves quote is followed by "allowing that..."

In the second example: The Sabato quote is followed by "adding that..."

As a former news editor, I can tell you, that I take the first as a conclusion reached by the reporter from the conversation. (not unreasonable given the quote) The second, I take, as words uttered, that the reporter decided not to place in quotes.

A distinction without difference for some, but would raise a question from an observant news editor.

 

[john h]

It's as easy as 1-2-3.

Tag Dansby so as to give us time to work out a long term deal.

Rework Fitz's contract, which you seem to be doing.

At least make a decent and fair offer to Calvin Pace. Maybe, just maybe he really would like to be a Cardinal and accept your offer. It makes no sense that his status should be affected by the situation with Fitz or Dansby.

For God's sake, take the lead for once.

It is apparently a lot harder than some of us think. Graves said it is unlikely we will be much of a buyer in free agency. It is estimated we have 30 million in cap money for 2008 and still have to allocate money for the draft and deal with our own guys we would like to keep. Pace is apparently going to test FA. Fitz will earn a truck full of money with his incentives. Dansby will almost surely be franchised and we still have others to deal with. I hope Graves is smart enough to figure all this out as it is going to be tough going. I was hoping we could acquire at least one good player in FA such as a DB but if we only have $30 mil in cap money and all these other players to deal with it does not look promising. DB's have had a new standard set for pay recently so any of the good ones available will be looking for major $$$$$$. For once I do not think it will be a matter of the Bidwill's being cheap. How did we get into this situation? Do we have all our money tied up in a few players? I watch as N.E., Dallas, and the Colts add players every year. I understand that N.E. puts a value on each position and they do not exceed it.

 

[john h]

I think you've said this twice now. What name do you have in mind, though? I was looking at the FA list, and say what you want about Calvin Pace, he has unique physical gifts. There aren't any 6'2", 270 lbs OLBs that are going to be available in the free agent pool.

One things good teams seem to have in common is getting a core of players together and keeping them. Continually rolling over players year after year does not a good team build.