An Offer To Rework Fitz's Deal - Darren Urban

[john h]

Agreed!

That's exactly why the Cardinals should make Pace a fair offer now, if they haven't already; in order that he doesn't get wow'ed by an offer from another club and sign it before knowing what the Cardinals are willing to do.

I sure am for making him a fair or good offer but from what I am reading our $30 mil in CAP money we have for 2008 is going to be a hard stretch with the core players we want to keep and the draft guys we will sign. I hope Graves majored in Capology as he seems to have more than a tough job ahead of him.

 

[john h]

http://www.azcardinals.com/news/detail.php?PRKey=2234

What amazes me is that the Cards confirm that Rolle will be moving to Safety. How long have posters on this board suggested that Rolle should be a Safety? We are not the experts so why does it take our Coaches a year or more to figure out what a pack of crazy fans figured out more than a year ago. Yes, I know Whiz just got here but the idiot before him slowed us down considerably. He never did figure out what position Davis was best at. Most of the fans on this board also had that one nailed right also. I hear Green is being looked at as HC for the Raiders?

When Houston Nutt left Arkansas last week as HC for Ole Miss most of his coaches left. Our DC was hired by Texas Tech in the same position. After only two days at Texas Tech Jerry Jones has signed him as the LB Coach for Dallas.

 

[CardLogic]

I think what it comes down to is who do the Cardinals envision as their two starting OLB's for 2008? Berry and Okeafor; Pace and Okeafor; Berry and Pace?

My guess is that Okeafor is slotted to man one OLB spot, the other will be either Pace or Berry. If the Cardinals sign Pace they may cut Berry. If Pace goes elsewhere via FA, they will stick with Berry at the other OLB.

OLB depth will be questionable at best...

 

[Redheart]

Come on Larry. Sign a team-friendly deal and I will buy your jersey.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

What amazes me is that the Cards confirm that Rolle will be moving to Safety. How long have posters on this board suggested that Rolle should be a Safety? We are not the experts so why does it take our Coaches a year or more to figure out what a pack of crazy fans figured out more than a year ago. Yes, I know Whiz just got here but the idiot before him slowed us down considerably. He never did figure out what position Davis was best at. Most of the fans on this board also had that one nailed right also. I hear Green is being looked at as HC for the Raiders?

When Houston Nutt left Arkansas last week as HC for Ole Miss most of his coaches left. Our DC was hired by Texas Tech in the same position. After only two days at Texas Tech Jerry Jones has signed him as the LB Coach for Dallas.

Leonard Davis' best position is a step over the offensive line a second before the snap.

I can't tell you how much I enjoyed him getting a false start in the All-Pro game.

 

[Stout]

Well, at this point we are simply quibbling over semantics. As it's been explained, even though the reporter directly attributed the quote to Graves (he said that Graves allowed for such a fact), it seems he stretched the truth. Will we be able to operate as adults in the FA market, or will we restrct ourselves to the preschool level? We won't know until it happens. Until then, we won't know if the reporter's hyperbole was eerily accurate or simply blustering journalism.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

So in your mind, this team hasn't improved since RG has taken over? We still have the same talent level of players and our coaching staff is the joke of the NFL?

We must be talking about different teams.

When a Graves led team has a winning record then we'll talk. The Kansas City Royals had a better record last year than the year before.That doesn't make them a good team. I think it's pretty amazing that about every year,for the last 7-10 years, we've had a top 10 draft choice, gone into every off season with as much cap space as anyone, and still haven't fielded a team with a winning record. That's pretty hard to do and is pretty astonishing. There's really only been 2 constants in that time period, Bidwill's have owned the team and Graves has been one of the top dogs in the front office. One 8-8 season doesn't make his record of futility go away.

 

[40yearfan]

When a Graves led team has a winning record then we'll talk. The Kansas City Royals had a better record last year than the year before.That doesn't make them a good team. I think it's pretty amazing that about every year,for the last 7-10 years, we've had a top 10 draft choice, gone into every off season with as much cap space as anyone, and still haven't fielded a team with a winning record. That's pretty hard to do and is pretty astonishing. There's really only been 2 constants in that time period, Bidwill's have owned the team and Graves has been one of the top dogs in the front office. One 8-8 season doesn't make his record of futility go away.

So RG's ineptness extends back 7-10 years? And do you really believe the talent level on this team is not any better than it was 3 or 4 years ago?

You and I are just going to have to agree to disagree. If you can't see how the Cards have changed in the last 3 - 4 years since M. Bidwill has taken control, nothing I can say or do will convince you.

 

[slanidrac16]

I see improvement. I also see things being done that make a bit more sense than in the past. I also view much of what we are doing as a good foundation for the team to be good for more than just 1 year and not just a flash in the pan like 1997.

HOWEVER, that being said, I believe we are at a point to start reaching for the brass ring. This crap about not have enough cap space, or needing Fitz to re-do his contract so we have enough cap space, or claims of not being able to go after outside free agents, blah, blah, blah, annoys the hell out of me.
The front office needs to know what THEY want. If they want Dansby then get a deal done. If they want Pace , then make him an offer he simply can't or won't refuse.
It seems the front office plods along waiting to react instead of acting.
EVERYBODY know anything is possible. ANY player is within reach IF WE KNOW WHAT THE HELL WE WANT!!!
I think Fitz would be more than happy to work out a team friendly deal if he KNEW what the result would mean.
"Heres the deal Larry. A team friendly contract will allow us to resign Dansby, Pace, and all our RFA. In addition to that , we are going to do everything possible to get Alan Faneca to come here along with 1 or 2 other key pieces to the puzzle that we feel will put this team in the playoffs."
Hell, Peyton Manning restructure his "record" deal to allow the Colts to do some things.

But see, we don't do that. We appear to have plan A , then we move a notch down to plan B.

It's even more frustrating now because we appear to be so close. To think Fitz's contract is holding things up or limiting what we might do just aggitates the crap out of me.

 

[40yearfan]

I see improvement. I also see things being done that make a bit more sense than in the past. I also view much of what we are doing as a good foundation for the team to be good for more than just 1 year and not just a flash in the pan like 1997.

HOWEVER, that being said, I believe we are at a point to start reaching for the brass ring. This crap about not have enough cap space, or needing Fitz to re-do his contract so we have enough cap space, or claiming of not being able to go after outsid efree agents, blah, blah, blah, annoys the hell out of me.
The front office needs to know what THEY want. If they want Dansby then get a deal done. If they want Pace , then make him an offer he simply can't or won't refuse.
It seems the front office plods along waiting to react instead of acting.
EVERYBODY know anything is possible. ANY player is within reach IF WE KNOW WHAT THE HELL WE WANT!!!
I think Fitz would be more than happy to work out a team friendly deal if he KNEW what the result would mean.
"Heres the deal Larry. A team friendly contract will allow us to resign Dansby, Pace, and all our RFA. In addition to that , we are going to do everything possible to get Alan Faneca to come here along with 1 or 2 other key pieces to the puzzle that we feel will put this team in the playoffs.
Hell, Peyton Manning restructure his "record" deal to allow the Colts to do some things.

But see, we don't do that. We appear to have plan A , then we move a notch down to plan B.

It's even more frustrating now because we appear to be so close. To think Fitz's contract is holding things up or limiting what we might do just aggitates the crap out of me.

How do you know these things aren't being done? And I don't know why you say we are changing our plans as we go. Seems to me like we do finally have a plan and aren't willing to change it just because the fans are anxious for something to happen.

Getting contracts settled isn't an easy thing to do, especially when they are worth multi-millions of dollars. We have a contract on a multi million dollar job in Nevada that we have been negotiating for the past two months. In this day and age, you have to have your T's crossed and your I's dotted to a finite degree. A good lawyer is a necessity and every word has to be scrutinized as to it's intended meaning.

These things take time and you have to get it right the first time. Better to take your time and be sure than to rush into it and screw it up. Too many dollars involved.

I understand your frustration and sympathize with it. Seems like it is taking forever, but in reality, we don't really know all that is going on and neither does any of the sources reporting on negotiations. They can only sumise, just as we are doing.

I've never had to deal with a players agent, but I've dealt with some pretty tough contractors. They would just love to have you get antsy and sign whatever they put in front of you just to get the job going. Bad manuever.

 

[Sandan]

It's even more frustrating now because we appear to be so close. To think Fitz's contract is holding things up or limiting what we might do just aggitates the crap out of me.

RG's quote doesn't say that, so why are you agitated about it ?

 

[slanidrac16]

How do you know these things aren't being done? And I don't know why you say we are changing our plans as we go. Seems to me like we do finally have a plan and aren't willing to change it just because the fans are anxious for something to happen.

Getting contracts settled isn't an easy thing to do, especially when they are worth multi-millions of dollars. We have a contract on a multi million dollar job in Nevada that we have been negotiating for the past two months. In this day and age, you have to have your T's crossed and your I's dotted to a finite degree. A good lawyer is a necessity and every word has to be scrutinized as to it's intended meaning.

These things take time and you have to get it right the first time. Better to take your time and be sure than to rush into it and screw it up. Too many dollars involved.

I understand your frustration and sympathize with it. Seems like it is taking forever, but in reality, we don't really know all that is going on and neither does any of the sources reporting on negotiations. They can only sumise, just as we are doing.

I've never had to deal with a players agent, but I've dealt with some pretty tough contractors. They would just love to have you get antsy and sign whatever they put in front of you just to get the job going. Bad manuever.

You are correct. We don't really now what is going on behind the scenes. But heres what we do know.
We KNEW the problem with Fitz's contract ever since he signed it. Why did we wait zero hour of what is now the 2008 season?
We KNEW (or should I say SHOULD have known) what Dansby means to this defense. I am less worried about this situation because we more or less can tag him to buy time to renegotiate a long term deal. I also understand his injury history and waiting to see how it all played out.
As far as Pace goes it seems everything being reported is that he will hit the FA market. It also APPEARS the club would like to have him back. It appears Pace wants to return. Just seems to me when you put all those dynamics together something could be done before March 1st.

You don't see many fans clamouring to get Bryant Johnson resigned. In fact, I have hardly heard his name mentioned here or anywhere else.
My point to mentioning his name is , if you want somebody on your team, pay him. I'm not saying throw money at PAce just to keep him, but wouldn't it be wise to at least offer some kind of deal before he heads off into free agency where some team is likely to overpay him and we lose him?
And if we do lose him, what will it cost us to replace him? Or will we simply just plan on plugging in a 5th round pick in his spot?

I don't pretend to really know what Calvin Pace is worth, but the Cards front office should. Hell I bet joeshmo knows. So if the front office knows AND they KNOW they want him, then IMHO it's okay to overpay to a certain degree to keep the continuity, depth and camp competition.

 

[DaisyCutter]

So RG's ineptness extends back 7-10 years? And do you really believe the talent level on this team is not any better than it was 3 or 4 years ago?

You and I are just going to have to agree to disagree. If you can't see how the Cards have changed in the last 3 - 4 years since M. Bidwill has taken control, nothing I can say or do will convince you.

I hate to wade back into these waters again, but doesn't Graves get any fault for dismantling the team that was semi-competitive? He let Boston and Plummer leave for nothing (and Williams? I don't remember), traded Thomas Jones for next-to-nothing, then failed to nix the move of Leonard Davis to tackle, cutting L.J. Shelton, and a whole host of other moves that strong, effective GMs make all the time.

Carl Peterson's Kansas City Chiefs may have performed poorly this season, but under Peterson's stewardship, since 1989, the franchise is 176-129. That's a .577 winning percentage.

Rod Graves (28-52) winning percentage in his tenure as VP Football Operations/General Manager? .350 Now bad is that? The Cardinals, as a franchise, since 1920 are 462-664-39. That winning percentage is .396.

Rod Graves managed to make the Arizona Cardinals perform worse than their historic average.

 

[40yearfan]

I hate to wade back into these waters again, but doesn't Graves get any fault for dismantling the team that was semi-competitive? He let Boston and Plummer leave for nothing (and Williams? I don't remember), traded Thomas Jones for next-to-nothing, then failed to nix the move of Leonard Davis to tackle, cutting L.J. Shelton, and a whole host of other moves that strong, effective GMs make all the time.

Carl Peterson's Kansas City Chiefs may have performed poorly this season, but under Peterson's stewardship, since 1989, the franchise is 176-129. That's a .577 winning percentage.

Rod Graves (28-52) winning percentage in his tenure as VP Football Operations/General Manager? .350 Now bad is that? The Cardinals, as a franchise, since 1920 are 462-664-39. That winning percentage is .396.

Rod Graves managed to make the Arizona Cardinals perform worse than their historic average.

Boston, Plummer, Thomas Jones? Just how long do you think RG was the true GM of this franchise? It's hard to comment on a statement with no basis in fact. Just how long have you followed the Cards?

EDIT: Sorry. Had to leave for a minute.

RG was promoted to the GM position in 2003. As far as I'm concerned, he just completed his 4th full year. Most of the players you are talking about left long before than. And I get a kick out of how you talk about him allowing Shelton and Davis to walk and consider that a bad thing. Shelton, maybe, but Davis? Not in my book. Our Oline was the worst in the league with Davis on there and showed marked improvement last year. If this is the worst he's done, we have a terrific GM.

 

[DaisyCutter]

Boston, Plummer, Thomas Jones? Just how long do you think RG was the true GM of this franchise? It's hard to comment on a statement with no basis in fact. Just how long have you followed the Cards?

Rod Graves was promoted to the position of vice president-football operations following the 2002 season after six years as Arizona’s assistant to the president and currently serves as the team's General Manager.

http://hosted.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=3895&team=27

Plummer played his first game as a Bronco in 2003.

http://hosted.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=5036&team=20

Jones played his first game as a Buccanneer in 2003.

http://hosted.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=4656&team=27

Boston played his first game for the Chargers in 2003.

http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=3191&Submit=Go

As did Kwame Lassiter.

I've been a fan of the franchise for a long time, but it's hard to say that the Arizona Cardinals would have fallen on such hard times, for so long, had a more competent manager been running the team when Rod Graves took over control of Football Operations.

 

[40yearfan]

You are correct. We don't really now what is going on behind the scenes. But heres what we do know.
We KNEW the problem with Fitz's contract ever since he signed it. Why did we wait zero hour of what is now the 2008 season?
We KNEW (or should I say SHOULD have known) what Dansby means to this defense. I am less worried about this situation because we more or less can tag him to buy time to renegotiate a long term deal. I also understand his injury history and waiting to see how it all played out.
As far as Pace goes it seems everything being reported is that he will hit the FA market. It also APPEARS the club would like to have him back. It appears Pace wants to return. Just seems to me when you put all those dynamics together something could be done before March 1st.

You don't see many fans clamouring to get Bryant Johnson resigned. In fact, I have hardly heard his name mentioned here or anywhere else.
My point to mentioning his name is , if you want somebody on your team, pay him. I'm not saying throw money at PAce just to keep him, but wouldn't it be wise to at least offer some kind of deal before he heads off into free agency where some team is likely to overpay him and we lose him?
And if we do lose him, what will it cost us to replace him? Or will we simply just plan on plugging in a 5th round pick in his spot?

I don't pretend to really know what Calvin Pace is worth, but the Cards front office should. Hell I bet joeshmo knows. So if the front office knows AND they KNOW they want him, then IMHO it's okay to overpay to a certain degree to keep the continuity, depth and camp competition.

Patience Grasshopper.

We'll get there if it takes every dime the Bidwills have.

 

[40yearfan]

http://hosted.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=3895&team=27

Plummer played his first game as a Bronco in 2003.

http://hosted.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=5036&team=20

Jones played his first game as a Buccanneer in 2003.

http://hosted.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=4656&team=27

Boston played his first game for the Chargers in 2003.

http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=3191&Submit=Go

As did Kwame Lassiter.

I've been a fan of the franchise for a long time, but it's hard to say that the Arizona Cardinals would have fallen on such hard times, for so long, had a more competent manager been running the team when Rod Graves took over control of Football Operations.

Check the rest of my post after I edited it. Graves didn't become GM until after the 2003 season and before that time had little or no input on player personnel. You don't have to take my word for it. I'm sure even some of the RG bashers will agree with that statement.

 

[Duckjake]

Boston, Plummer, Thomas Jones? Just how long do you think RG was the true GM of this franchise? It's hard to comment on a statement with no basis in fact. Just how long have you followed the Cards?

All those guys left after the 2002 season. The same time frame that Rod Graves was promoted to Vice President of Football Operations.

Whether Graves got the power/authority of a true GM along with that promotion we don't really know. Though that has been debated at length on ASFN.

As an aside, imho the talent on defense at the time was so thin and the character problems were so bad that there was no way the Cards were even semi-competitive and the team needed to be blown up and rebuilt.

As fans we paid for that but hopefully we'll get big dividends over the next 2-3 years.

 

[slanidrac16]

Patience Grasshopper.

We'll get there if it takes every dime the Bidwills have.

I've been patient for the last 45 years. I'm at a point where I'm starting to worry about running out of time!

 

[DaisyCutter]

Check the rest of my post after I edited it. Graves didn't become GM until after the 2003 season and before that time had little or no input on player personnel. You don't have to take my word for it. I'm sure even some of the RG bashers will agree with that statement.

Actually, Rod Graves wasn't promoted to General Manager until the 2007 offseason began. As you so poetically put it:

It's hard to comment on a statement with no basis in fact.

Very diplomatic. That quote about Rod Graves position comes from the Cards website. When he was promoted last winter, Mike Bidwill said that it was just a title change to reflect what he was already doing.

 

[DaisyCutter]

Rod Graves (28-52) winning percentage in his tenure as VP Football Operations/General Manager? .350 Now bad is that? The Cardinals, as a franchise, since 1920 are 462-664-39. That winning percentage is .396.

Rod Graves managed to make the Arizona Cardinals perform worse than their historic average.

This is probably worth re-reading.

 

[slanidrac16]

I see only 1 way out for us with Fitz. It's going to take a whopping, let me repeat WHOPPING signing bonus to get him to renew his deal. He stands to make 32M over the next 2 years even if we do nothing.

 

[Sandan]

Assuming he doesn't get hurt ?

 

[slanidrac16]

Assuming he doesn't get hurt ?

True, but he is going to make , what 15m this year no matter what?

 

[Sandan]

No, iirc only if he on the roster come opening day [or something like that]

People have suffered career ending injuries in training camp.