An Offer To Rework Fitz's Deal - Darren Urban

[Redsz]

I think the Cardinals are walking a very fine line here with Pace. Letting the market set the market for him is a questionable strategy as the FA market often inflates a players value.

As I see it, teams like CLE and SF could be big problems for us. They need 3-4 backers and aren't afraid to throw money around.

It's somewhat alarming that Graves has allowed Fitzgeralds deal to freeze us into doing so little with our other key players.

 

[40yearfan]

I think the Cardinals are walking a very fine line here with Pace. Letting the market set the market for him is a questionable strategy as the FA market often inflates a players value.

As I see it, teams like CLE and SF could be big problems for us. They need 3-4 backers and aren't afraid to throw money around.

It's somewhat alarming that Graves has allowed Fitzgeralds deal to freeze us into doing so little with our other key players.

One of the big complaints a lot of people had on here was that the Cards weren't using back loaded contracts a few years ago. Now that they are using them, we are beginning to realize that as with the old way of doing things, nothing is without it's problems.

People were hollering at Graves for not using them and now we are hollering at him because he did use them. Talk about a no-win scenario.

 

[Assface]

I think the Cardinals are walking a very fine line here with Pace. Letting the market set the market for him is a questionable strategy as the FA market often inflates a players value.

As I see it, teams like CLE and SF could be big problems for us. They need 3-4 backers and aren't afraid to throw money around.

It's somewhat alarming that Graves has allowed Fitzgeralds deal to freeze us into doing so little with our other key players.

I don't think many teams will be willing to pony up big money for Pace. He's neither a pure DE nor 4-3 OLB. Many posters here are critical of Pace for not producing until his 5th year. For that very same reason, how many GMs do you think would be confident in giving him more money than the Cardinals are offering? I think he earned himself a good paycheck this year but I don't think there's going to be a bidding war for his services.

 

[az240zz]

One of the big complaints a lot of people had on here was that the Cards weren't using back loaded contracts a few years ago. Now that they are using them, we are beginning to realize that as with the old way of doing things, nothing is without it's problems.

People were hollering at Graves for not using them and now we are hollering at him because he did use them. Talk about a no-win scenario.

An effective GM would have had the forsight to see what was going to happen last year, considering the bonuses built into his contract, and would have redone it before the start of the season.

az240z

 

[Stout]

One of the big complaints a lot of people had on here was that the Cards weren't using back loaded contracts a few years ago. Now that they are using them, we are beginning to realize that as with the old way of doing things, nothing is without it's problems.

People were hollering at Graves for not using them and now we are hollering at him because he did use them. Talk about a no-win scenario.

Um, come again? Last year we saw the FO give bonuses that heavily frontloaded the contact, eating up the cap space that season to 'keep our powder dry' for this year. We had huge arguments on here last offseason because a lot of us were upset about frontloading the contracts.

 

[40yearfan]

All those guys left after the 2002 season. The same time frame that Rod Graves was promoted to Vice President of Football Operations.

Whether Graves got the power/authority of a true GM along with that promotion we don't really know. Though that has been debated at length on ASFN.

As an aside, imho the talent on defense at the time was so thin and the character problems were so bad that there was no way the Cards were even semi-competitive and the team needed to be blown up and rebuilt.

As fans we paid for that but hopefully we'll get big dividends over the next 2-3 years.

And he was promoted to GM in 2003, right before Dennis Green was hired. Up until that time, he had no real power and was only one of several management personnel in name only. That's why I questioned his input on that hiring. It smacked of Bill Bidwill all the way.


From Wiki:

Rod Graves is the current Vice President of Football Operations and General Manager for the Arizona Cardinals in the National Football League. He started as a regional scout for the Chicago Bears in 1984. He joined the Arizona Cardinals in 1997 as the Assistant to the President and was promoted to his current position in 2003.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Graves

 

[40yearfan]

Actually, Rod Graves wasn't promoted to General Manager until the 2007 offseason began. As you so poetically put it:



Very diplomatic. That quote about Rod Graves position comes from the Cards website. When he was promoted last winter, Mike Bidwill said that it was just a title change to reflect what he was already doing.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. He got the position of GM after the 2003 season and his contract was extended in 2007. There was some speculation on here that he would be let go instead of having his contract renewed.

Using your reasoning, if he didn't get the job until 2007, how could you possibly blame him for anything prior to that?

 

[40yearfan]

Since we are talking about Rod Graves, I thought it would be interesting to revive this old thread that started in 2006--

http://arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=82500

 

[40yearfan]

Um, come again? Last year we saw the FO give bonuses that heavily frontloaded the contact, eating up the cap space that season to 'keep our powder dry' for this year. We had huge arguments on here last offseason because a lot of us were upset about frontloading the contracts.

And now you are hollering at him because he back loaded Fitz's contract. Did you ever consider that maybe he was front end loading those contracts so that he would have enough money this year to be able to deal with Fitz's contract?

 

[40yearfan]

An effective GM would have had the forsight to see what was going to happen last year, considering the bonuses built into his contract, and would have redone it before the start of the season.

az240z

He did. That's why he was front end loading the contracts last year. Now we have the money to deal with this problem thanks to RG's foresight.

 

[Duckjake]

Wrong, wrong, wrong. He got the position of GM after the 2003 season and his contract was extended in 2007. There was some speculation on here that he would be let go instead of having his contract renewed.

Using your reasoning, if he didn't get the job until 2007, how could you possibly blame him for anything prior to that?

Actually Graves became the Cardinals version of a GM when he was promoted to VP FO when Ferguson was fired.

I'd say that the Michael Bidwill and Rod Graves era started at that point in early 2003 while Plummer, Boston, and Tjones were all still on the team even though several news articles in 2004 talk about how Denny Green was in control after he was hired.

The AZRepublic has an online archive section that makes great reading for anyone who cares about Cardinal history even though it costs money to read the full articles it is fun just to read the opening paragraphs.

 

[Stout]

And now you are hollering at him because he back loaded Fitz's contract. Did you ever consider that maybe he was front end loading those contracts so that he would have enough money this year to be able to deal with Fitz's contract?

Nope, not even for a moment. Why? Because any even remotely competent GM worth his salt will extend a player with Fitz's contract situation. I think Graves was under the reasonable impression that Fitz's extension would get done, and I'm still confident of that fact. If it doesn't, it'll absolutely bury Graves' credibility. Like I said, though, I'm fully confident he gets it done before the start of FA. It's a win-win for both the FO and Fitz.

Why did he frontload the contracts last year? I think it's because he didn't want to sign too many players in FA, that he wanted to take a slow, plodding course in building the team. The more chances he takes, the more chances he has of failing. I think his approach is to incrementally get the team better, an inch at a time, and hope we break out.

 

[slanidrac16]

One of the big complaints a lot of people had on here was that the Cards weren't using back loaded contracts a few years ago. Now that they are using them, we are beginning to realize that as with the old way of doing things, nothing is without it's problems.

People were hollering at Graves for not using them and now we are hollering at him because he did use them. Talk about a no-win scenario.

Well it's not actually a no win scenario. The way to beat the problem is to re-do the contract BEFORE it gets to the big payout year.
If the Cards would have approached Fitz last year to re-work his deal he would have been more inclined to do it because of the "what if I get injured" card.
Honestly, this should still not be a problem. Why? Because Fitz is the type of player that you want to have on your team his entire career. So give him a $30 mil bonus on a 7 year extension with another bonus due in year 4 or something like taht and then deal with it again when the time comes.
He's a 2 time pro-bowler in his short career. He is a proven commodity that is STILL going to get better.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I am sorry.

But you guys are making this sound too easy. What if Graves offered Pace, Dansby, or Fitzgerald an offer, or was willing to talk before this point and the players said they didn't want to at this time.

The players in question do have the ability and right to decide not to re-sign with the club. This is not a one way street.

Plus who knows how much some of these guys want. When it comes to Fitzgerald and Dansby it makes sense to pay them "what they want"

Pace is not one of those guys no matter how good some of us thinks he is.

 

[Darth Llama]

I am sorry.

But you guys are making this sound too easy. What if Graves offered Pace, Dansby, or Fitzgerald an offer, or was willing to talk before this point and the players said they didn't want to at this time.

The players in question do have the ability and right to decide not to re-sign with the club. This is not a one way street.

Plus who knows how much some of these guys want. When it comes to Fitzgerald and Dansby it makes sense to pay them "what they want"

Pace is not one of those guys no matter how good some of us thinks he is.

People just assume any scenario they can that lets them blame Rod Graves for something. That will probably never change. No matter what happens, we're going to have 200 threads blasting Graves for something, rather it's his fault or not.

 

[Stout]

I am sorry.

But you guys are making this sound too easy. What if Graves offered Pace, Dansby, or Fitzgerald an offer, or was willing to talk before this point and the players said they didn't want to at this time.

The players in question do have the ability and right to decide not to re-sign with the club. This is not a one way street.

Plus who knows how much some of these guys want. When it comes to Fitzgerald and Dansby it makes sense to pay them "what they want"

Pace is not one of those guys no matter how good some of us thinks he is.

Rugby, I think Fitz's deal will get done, yes, because it makes sense for both sides. While I hope Dansby gets a deal, though, it is far, far less of a sure thing. I won't go crazy on Graves if we have to tag him, because that's likely what we'll have to do. No bag on Graves for that. As for Pace, it's going to be tricky. Now, if it comes out that we lose him and didn't even make a decent offer, then I'll be upset, sure. If he gets a huge offer and walks, though, I'll be sad to lose him, but can hardly blame Graves. The only knock Graves could get then would be that he waited too long to get a deal done. I'll definitely take a wait-and-see with the Pace situation as relates to Graves.

 

[DaisyCutter]

I am sorry.

But you guys are making this sound too easy. What if Graves offered Pace, Dansby, or Fitzgerald an offer, or was willing to talk before this point and the players said they didn't want to at this time.

The players in question do have the ability and right to decide not to re-sign with the club. This is not a one way street.

Plus who knows how much some of these guys want. When it comes to Fitzgerald and Dansby it makes sense to pay them "what they want"

Pace is not one of those guys no matter how good some of us thinks he is.

For what it's worth, I don't think that any of this is easy. I think that being a good general manager of an NFL team is almost impossibly hard. Which is why I firmly believe that fans of the Arizona Cardinals deserve a better general manager than the one they have.

Rod Graves has had 5 years, and the best he's had to show for it is one non-losing season. I'm certain that he's a wonderful, honorable man that does a lot of very good things for his community, and is as honest as he can be with fans and the media. He's just a terrible general manager--likely the worst in the NFL behind Matt Millen.

 

[40yearfan]

Nope, not even for a moment. Why? Because any even remotely competent GM worth his salt will extend a player with Fitz's contract situation. I think Graves was under the reasonable impression that Fitz's extension would get done, and I'm still confident of that fact. If it doesn't, it'll absolutely bury Graves' credibility. Like I said, though, I'm fully confident he gets it done before the start of FA. It's a win-win for both the FO and Fitz.

Why did he frontload the contracts last year? I think it's because he didn't want to sign too many players in FA, that he wanted to take a slow, plodding course in building the team. The more chances he takes, the more chances he has of failing. I think his approach is to incrementally get the team better, an inch at a time, and hope we break out.

I don't know of any team that extends players contracts a year before it is necessary to do so. NFL teams have to work in the here and now, not in the what might come.

You don't like the way RG has handled the situation and that's your perogative. I believe it has worked out for the best and left us in a situation that we can handle regardless of whether we can get Fitz extended or not. If we had not structured contracts the way we did last year, we might not be in that position. Since it didn't happen the way you would have liked to see it happen, all we can do is speculate as to what might have been.

 

[40yearfan]

Well it's not actually a no win scenario. The way to beat the problem is to re-do the contract BEFORE it gets to the big payout year.
If the Cards would have approached Fitz last year to re-work his deal he would have been more inclined to do it because of the "what if I get injured" card.
Honestly, this should still not be a problem. Why? Because Fitz is the type of player that you want to have on your team his entire career. So give him a $30 mil bonus on a 7 year extension with another bonus due in year 4 or something like taht and then deal with it again when the time comes.
He's a 2 time pro-bowler in his short career. He is a proven commodity that is STILL going to get better.

As I told Stout, I don't know of any NFL teams that anticipate contract renewals ahead of time. Too many other things need to be addressed.

I don't pretend to be a CAP guru, but I do know that continuously pushing off player salaries like some teams do will eventually put you between a rock and a hard place. It seems like the better teams like Philly and the Pats will let a good player go rather than overpay him.

The whole idea is to keep your core of good players, have coaches who can coach up the depth on the team and have a front office that can determine future stars during the draft and FA. That is the way to keep continuity and have a winning franchise for more than one or two years at a time. To get to this level takes time. To maintain this level takes skill, the three ingredients I mentioned above and a great deal of luck. I believe we have all three going for us right now. We just need a little patience.

 

[40yearfan]

Actually Graves became the Cardinals version of a GM when he was promoted to VP FO when Ferguson was fired.

I'd say that the Michael Bidwill and Rod Graves era started at that point in early 2003 while Plummer, Boston, and Tjones were all still on the team even though several news articles in 2004 talk about how Denny Green was in control after he was hired.

The AZRepublic has an online archive section that makes great reading for anyone who cares about Cardinal history even though it costs money to read the full articles it is fun just to read the opening paragraphs.

Graves was GM in name only until right before Green was hired. I remember the hulabaloo on here when Bidwill announced his promotion. He was given a 3 year contract that started after the 2003 season. At the end of that contract, he worked for part of a year without a contract and given another 3 year contract in 2007.

 

[Stout]

I don't know of any team that extends players contracts a year before it is necessary to do so. NFL teams have to work in the here and now, not in the what might come.

You don't like the way RG has handled the situation and that's your perogative. I believe it has worked out for the best and left us in a situation that we can handle regardless of whether we can get Fitz extended or not. If we had not structured contracts the way we did last year, we might not be in that position. Since it didn't happen the way you would have liked to see it happen, all we can do is speculate as to what might have been.

But it wasn't a year ahead of time. As soon as that point in the season hit when we went from last year's cap to this year's (don't know the date, but it was mid-season), then the extension would have impacted this coming season. The team should have started talking to him the moment that happened, because that's what good GMs do--they stay on top of the situation as quickly as possible. And I'm not saying that Graves has necessarily mishandled the Fitz situation. He still has plenty of time to get the extension done. As I said, I'm confident it will get done. As I said, it makes sense for both sides. It would be a disaster and a black mark on the FO if it does not get done, but I think it will.

 

[Stout]

As I told Stout, I don't know of any NFL teams that anticipate contract renewals ahead of time. Too many other things need to be addressed.

I don't pretend to be a CAP guru, but I do know that continuously pushing off player salaries like some teams do will eventually put you between a rock and a hard place. It seems like the better teams like Philly and the Pats will let a good player go rather than overpay him.

The whole idea is to keep your core of good players, have coaches who can coach up the depth on the team and have a front office that can determine future stars during the draft and FA. That is the way to keep continuity and have a winning franchise for more than one or two years at a time. To get to this level takes time. To maintain this level takes skill, the three ingredients I mentioned above and a great deal of luck. I believe we have all three going for us right now. We just need a little patience.

We are not following the Pats model in the least...not even close. You can compare us somewhat to the Eagles, but the reason they can let good players go is because they are already a good roster. Were we already a solid roster, we could limit ourselves to surgical moves here and there to improve and maintain. As it stands, we have the solid basis for a good team, but the roster needs more bolstering than just one player here and another there. We're still 5-6 solid, immediate contributors away from being a top team, so unless you're content to fail to compete again, we need to be aggressive.

I need to expand on the Pats point. The Pats constantly sign aging players to augment their roster, counting on veteran ability to bolster their team. We do quite the opposite, and routinely discount adding a player due to age. The Pats are also routinely active in the offseason, identifying areas of need and filling them. Last year, they had a lousy receiving corps, so they added Welker (trade), Moss (trade), and Stallworth (FA). When was the last time the Cards were that aggressive in filling their needs through trades and FA?

 

[RugbyMuffin]

As for Pace, it's going to be tricky. Now, if it comes out that we lose him and didn't even make a decent offer, then I'll be upset, sure. If he gets a huge offer and walks, though, I'll be sad to lose him, but can hardly blame Graves. The only knock Graves could get then would be that he waited too long to get a deal done.

We are on the same page here.

Personally, I am not a Rod Graves fan. Please do not mistake my arguments in the Pace situation for support for Graves.

I was not happy to hear he got an extension.

 

[Azlen]

Davis' Pro Bowl berth proves he's no 'bust' - Ft Worth Star-Telegram

http://www.star-telegram.com/332/story/464407.html


Leonard Davis admits he has never quite understood the term “bust.” He knows there is the obvious negative connotation attached to it, but he really never grasped how he was stuck with such an unflattering tag.
“I was trying to figure that out,” the Cowboys’ guard said. “I mean, what is a bust? People talk about being a bust, but I really don’t understand. What do you consider a bust?”
He had been considered a bust in his first six years in the [FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]NFL[/FONT][/FONT]. And even though that tag never kept him up at night, there were days when thinking about such labels bothered him.
But since leaving the Arizona Cardinals and signing as a free agent last off-season with the Cowboys, Davis no longer can be called a bust.
He and 12 of his teammates are scheduled to play in the NFL’s Pro Bowl this afternoon in Hawaii, capping Davis’ evolution from supposed NFL bust to NFL Pro Bowler.
“I can say it was worth it. It was definitely worth it,” Davis said in a phone interview this week from Hawaii. “Now, what can critics really say now?”
Certainly not nearly as much as was said of Davis, the second overall pick in the 2001 draft, in his first six NFL seasons.
Since Davis joined the Cowboys, he’s crushed the notion that perception is reality, and perhaps bolsters the concept that a wretched team can create a bad label for any player.
In Davis’ six years with Arizona, he played for two head coaches and blocked for five starting quarterbacks during a span in which the [FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Cardinals[/FONT][/FONT] went 32-64. In that time, he played three different positions and was routinely ignored for anything other than lists that began with the word “bust.”
“I could see if I couldn’t block people or quarterbacks were getting hit all of the time,” Davis said. “I was trying to figure out why. It did bother me a little bit, but I didn’t say anything. I just kept playing. Then I’d run into guys after the season and they’d say, ‘Man, I can’t believe you didn’t make the Pro Bowl.’ And those were guys I played against. What could I really say? Maybe next year.”
Davis was viewed as talented but indifferent. Maybe too nice.
It’s true — Davis is one of the most gentle and decent [FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]professional [/FONT][/FONT] you could meet. On an offensive line that fines each other for being quoted in the media, Davis waves it off and graciously gives his thoughts to reporters. And he’s usually at the front of the line to assist in the franchise’s community efforts.
But not until this season was he finally viewed for his on-the-field production. Winning has a way of changing that.
“The biggest thing is that it just helps being in a winning organization,” Davis said. “I don’t really feel like that I’ve done just so much more than what I did in the past. The difference now is we’re winning games.”
The 2007 season was not only Davis’ first trip to the playoffs, but the first time he was on a winning team since his college days at Texas.
Playing for the Cowboys, featured almost weekly on TV’s prime slots, and helping the team win 13 games was a big reason why he earned his first trip to the Pro Bowl.
“Now I got this first one out of the way. Now no one can say anything,” Davis said. “I do think about [former Rams tackle] Jackie Slater [not making] his first Pro Bowl until his seventh year.”
So does this mean Davis intends to play until he is 41, as Slater did in his Hall of Fame career? At this question, Davis lets out a long, booming laugh. He’s generally tickled at the idea.
“Oh, I don’t know about that,” he said. “As long as I’m having fun.”
And amid the surf, sand and football in Hawaii, the “bust” is having fun.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I don't see how Rod" keeping the powder dry, building the belly of the team" Graves thinks he's in cap crunch situation. You get Fitz done,tag Dansby and you're still way under the cap. I could care less about Pace. There's talk of releasing Edge and Berry which free up even more cap space. I don't get how Graves can make statements like that. More concerning is why does he feel the need to make such statements? Why say anything? All his remarks do is lower expectations and cause fan unrest. He doesn't need to come out and say we're going to be agressive either. If it was me, i would just say, we'll deal with free agency when it gets here.