An Offer To Rework Fitz's Deal - Darren Urban

[RugbyMuffin]

Hobson has only ever had 1 average season and a horrible season last year.

So, Pace has only had one solid season as well and has been horrible every season before that.

And as I said before I think Haggans would be taking a step back but it would fill the need for now.

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We can always see what Orlando Huff is up too

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Well Pace really had nowhere to go but up. He was an afterthought starting the year and got the job because of injury. I worry about guys who perform ONLY in their contract year. Maybe Graves has an agreement in place with Pace's agent that the Cards will have the last shot to meet/beat any offer. I would like to keep Pace,only because we need some OLB's for depth, but, if Berry and Okeafor return healthy, he may not even start next year. I would not give him any big deal by any means. I can almost see a Marcel Shipp type scenario. He'll hit the open market, see very little interest, and re-sign with the Cards at their original offer.

My worry on that is Berry. I would keep as close an eye on Berry as I do on your avatar pic.

But seriously we need someone to come in here to replace Pace if he leaves cause Berry is no longer an every down or 16 game a year player.

Furthermore, there is a good chance Berry will be cut for cap reasons.

 

[joeshmo]

My worry on that is Berry. I would keep as close an eye on Berry as I do on your avatar pic.

But seriously we need someone to come in here to replace Pace if he leaves cause Berry is no longer an every down or 16 game a year player.

Furthermore, there is a good chance Berry will be cut for cap reasons.

I think there is a good chance on Berry being cut as well even if we do get Fitz cap number down. If he isnt I think we may have to treat him like some other teams do with their vets and only let him practice 50% of the time, and put him in a heavy rotation with a rookie. Then hope Okeafer doesn't get injured on the other side.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

My worry on that is Berry. I would keep as close an eye on Berry as I do on your avatar pic.

But seriously we need someone to come in here to replace Pace if he leaves cause Berry is no longer an every down or 16 game a year player.

Furthermore, there is a good chance Berry will be cut for cap reasons.

I agree Berry and Pace could both be gone. Berry may be a guy who will re-structure. If they're both gone, I'm sure Orlando Huff is available .

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I found some other names to throw around.

1. My favorite (which will NEVER happen) cause he is a RFA and I would expect he would be given a very high tender is Marquis Harris on the San Diego Chargers.

He would be a HUGE upgrade over Pace. He is only on the bench cause he is behind Merriman, and Shaun Phillips.

2. Shante Orr would be a nice to bring into camp. I remember him having some promise in the 3-4 defense before the Texans changed to a 4-3. He is thought to be a 3-4 outside lineback. Heck I would bring him in for depth in a second.

3. Reggie Torbor was brought up in another thread but I dunno about him in a 3-4. I will give the kid credit, tho, he is very fast and starting to come into his own.

4. Here is another (this will never happen) but for the sake of throwing names around. JARED ALLEN.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know he is a 4-3 DE arguement is comming. The guy has shown incredible atheletic ability, his pass rushing abilities cannot be denied, and he can catch too. But he will be tagged or signed by the Chiefs unless they are VERY stupid.

That's all I got for now.

This is fun! Heated debates about guys who aren't even gone or cut yet! Gotta love ASFN in the offseason.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Then hope Okeafer doesn't get injured on the other side.

Right?

Ugh.

Our OLB situation is horrible. Even if Pace stays. I do not want to go back to Daryl Blackstock/Joe Tafoya.

 

[slanidrac16]

I found some other names to throw around.

1. My favorite (which will NEVER happen) cause he is a RFA and I would expect he would be given a very high tender is Marquis Harris on the San Diego Chargers.

He would be a HUGE upgrade over Pace. He is only on the bench cause he is behind Merriman, and Shaun Phillips.

2. Shante Orr would be a nice to bring into camp. I remember him having some promise in the 3-4 defense before the Texans changed to a 4-3. He is thought to be a 3-4 outside lineback. Heck I would bring him in for depth in a second.

3. Reggie Torbor was brought up in another thread but I dunno about him in a 3-4. I will give the kid credit, tho, he is very fast and starting to come into his own.

4. Here is another (this will never happen) but for the sake of throwing names around. JARED ALLEN.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know he is a 4-3 DE arguement is comming. The guy has shown incredible atheletic ability, his pass rushing abilities cannot be denied, and he can catch too. But he will be tagged or signed by the Chiefs unless they are VERY stupid.

That's all I got for now.

This is fun! Heated debates about guys who aren't even gone or cut yet! Gotta love ASFN in the offseason.

Great! And how much would any of these players cost us? Less than Pace?
Bottom line. You draft a player hoping he is the player you think he is. When he turns out to be that player , you pay him.
We were all dogging Pace and Rolle at the beginning of the season but this coaching staff found a way to make these to players produce.
Pay the guy . Keep the continuity that a team needs to improve
and move on to the next problem.

 

[joeshmo]

I found some other names to throw around.

1. My favorite (which will NEVER happen) cause he is a RFA and I would expect he would be given a very high tender is Marquis Harris on the San Diego Chargers.

He would be a HUGE upgrade over Pace. He is only on the bench cause he is behind Merriman, and Shaun Phillips.

2. Shante Orr would be a nice to bring into camp. I remember him having some promise in the 3-4 defense before the Texans changed to a 4-3. He is thought to be a 3-4 outside lineback. Heck I would bring him in for depth in a second.

3. Reggie Torbor was brought up in another thread but I dunno about him in a 3-4. I will give the kid credit, tho, he is very fast and starting to come into his own.

4. Here is another (this will never happen) but for the sake of throwing names around. JARED ALLEN.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know he is a 4-3 DE arguement is comming. The guy has shown incredible atheletic ability, his pass rushing abilities cannot be denied, and he can catch too. But he will be tagged or signed by the Chiefs unless they are VERY stupid.

That's all I got for now.

This is fun! Heated debates about guys who aren't even gone or cut yet! Gotta love ASFN in the offseason.

Nice list if you are trying to make our point for us.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Chike Okeafor for one. I think a rookie can step in and put up the numbers Pace did,maybe exceed them. It's not like we're talking about a pro-bowl player here. We're talking about a guy who was a question mark to even make the team out of training camp. Like i said before, the guy has had about 8 good games in 5 years. I find that easily replacable.

The team, this past season, finally found a role for him that works. What occurred prior to that is irrelevent. The issue is whether the team is better with him going down the road, or not. While I think Cheke fits into the mix, we need more than one 260/265 Lb. outside linebacker for our 3-4.

If you can guarantee (and you can't) that there's a draft pick out there that can give us: 98 tackles - 6.5 sacks - and an interception... then fine... he's easily replaceable. Somehow, I doubt that management thinks it's as easy as you say.

 

[Sandan]

This is great.

I'd be willing to bet that there is a significant overlap between the group here wringing their hands over 'We must keep Pace, RG is so stupid' and the group this time last year who wanted us to cut Pace ?

 

[DaisyCutter]

This is great.

I'd be willing to bet that there is a significant overlap between the group here wringing their hands over 'We must keep Pace, RG is so stupid' and the group this time last year who wanted us to cut Pace ?

What does that have to do with anything, though? Pace was not a starter last season, and did have a tentative hold on the roster. Now, Pace started 16 games and was a solid contributor.

Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds, right?

 

[Sandan]

Pace was a starter this due to injury.

Did he play well yes, will he do it again who knows, did he play better than the person he replaced again who knows.

The point is that certain posters love to find reasons to slam RG. Right now the only player we are in any danger of losing to FA is Pace. hence now he appears to be tagged as a star we can't lose.

In reality he had one good year, a contract year at that. Would I like to keep him, sure I would but I doubt he is critical to success next year.

Can he be replaced, sure he can, easily I think. How about the man who was supposed to start this year ?

Folks we are looking for a backup OLB here, it seems to me Wiz has decided good as Pace may have been he would rather have Okefor starting and a new backup.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Pace was a starter this due to injury.

Did he play well yes, will he do it again who knows, did he play better than the person he replaced again who knows.

The point is that certain posters love to find reasons to slam RG. Right now the only player we are in any danger of losing to FA is Pace. hence now he appears to be tagged as a star we can't lose.

In reality he had one good year, a contract year at that. Would I like to keep him, sure I would but I doubt he is critical to success next year.

Can he be replaced, sure he can, easily I think. How about the man who was supposed to start this year ?

Folks we are looking for a backup OLB here, it seems to me Wiz has decided good as Pace may have been he would rather have Okefor starting and a new backup.

It seems to you based on what actual evidence?

 

[Sandan]

I said "it seems to me", if it doesn't seem so to you then thats fine.

I didn't say it is true or that that was based on anything.

Is only unsubstantiated negative speculation allowed here ?

 

[ajcardfan]

I'm not sure we all appreciate just how hard it is to get Fitz signed to an extension and get cap relief for this season. Fitz is set to make 30 million if he just played out the last two years of his deal. So, he has little incentive to sign a new deal until, at the very least, he can bank that much in two years AND a bit more.

As i see, the Cards almost HAVE to use the type of deal they've been so loathe to use in the past. That is a big upfront bonus, prorated out over 6 or 7 years with some sort of escalator in the middle that will force them into this same situation again in 3 years or so.

 

[football karma]

I'm not sure we all appreciate just how hard it is to get Fitz signed to an extension and get cap relief for this season. Fitz is set to make 30 million if he just played out the last two years of his deal. So, he has little incentive to sign a new deal until, at the very least, he can bank that much in two years AND a bit more.

As i see, the Cards almost HAVE to use the type of deal they've been so loathe to use in the past. That is a big upfront bonus, prorated out over 6 or 7 years with some sort of escalator in the middle that will force them into this same situation again in 3 years or so.

Working in the Cards favor is risk and the time value of money.

For Fitz -- the risk is injury, and frankly, getting cut. He is one ACL injury in 2008 from having the next season worth little. Also, getting cut also means that while being a free agent, he isnt getting $30 mm over his first two seasons.

Time value of money also helps -- a $21 mm bonus paid in MArch of this year, with salaries of $5mm in years 1 and 2 of a new contract has the same present value as his existing contract and has a much lower risk profile, as the bulk of the money is received up front.

 

[DaisyCutter]

The point is that certain posters love to find reasons to slam RG. Right now the only player we are in any danger of losing to FA is Pace. hence now he appears to be tagged as a star we can't lose.

Who here is saying that Pace is a "star we can't lose"? I don't see anyone saying that. I hear people saying that he's a solid player at a position where we know we don't have a lot of depth and the Cards have had a hard time locating talented players at the position in the past. We've talked about how there aren't a lot of equivalent players out there, as well.

What people seem to be saying is that if Rod Graves had been busy working on contracts during the season, he could easily have had Dansby and Pace taken care of at this point, and be working 100% on Fitz's contract before free agency happened.

 

[HookemCards]

I'm not sure we all appreciate just how hard it is to get Fitz signed to an extension and get cap relief for this season. Fitz is set to make 30 million if he just played out the last two years of his deal. So, he has little incentive to sign a new deal until, at the very least, he can bank that much in two years AND a bit more.

As i see, the Cards almost HAVE to use the type of deal they've been so loathe to use in the past. That is a big upfront bonus, prorated out over 6 or 7 years with some sort of escalator in the middle that will force them into this same situation again in 3 years or so.

I guess it depends on how much revenue the new stadium is generating and how truthful the ownership was about using the new revenue stream. They could give Fitz a 24 mil signing bonus on a 6 year contract with salaries of 3 mil each year. That would give him 30 mil the next 2 years, and cost about 7mil per year for the life of the contract. Would he sign it? Who knows, but I'd bet Graves wouldn't have to move too much off those numbers. We'd then still have 23 mil to resign Dansby and Pace, before we make cuts/restructures.

 

[HookemCards]

Chike Okeafor for one. I think a rookie can step in and put up the numbers Pace did,maybe exceed them. It's not like we're talking about a pro-bowl player here. We're talking about a guy who was a question mark to even make the team out of training camp. Like i said before, the guy has had about 8 good games in 5 years. I find that easily replacable.

But then you are just doing what we have always done, replacing a player with a draft pick that could be used on another position of need. Like replacing Davis last year with Brown, at best you maintain status quo, and thats if the rookie pans out which we all know is a 50/50 proposition.

 

[HookemCards]

the only reason we are in good shape this year is because of the way Graves structured the contracts in 2007.

The biggest advantage to giving roster bonuses instead of signing bonuses (and I think this was the driving factor for Graves to do it last year) is when cutting players the roster bonus doesn't accelerate to the cap, where as signing bonuses would. Everyone knows that 2nd year coaches usually cut alot of players, so if one of the players that got roster bonuses, instead of signing bonuses the last few years is cut, it won't accelerate to the cap. As far as this years cap, I don't think giving roster bonuses instead of signing bonuses affects it that much. I'm sure Joe can give a better idea of the money saved on this years cap. For instance, Al Johnson got a 3.5 mil roster bonus last year in addition to his 3.5 mil salary so he cost us 7 mil last year. But his contract is 5 years?? so it only saves 700,000 on this years cap, not a huge difference.

 

[joeshmo]

The point is that certain posters love to find reasons to slam RG. Right now the only player we are in any danger of losing to FA is Pace. hence now he appears to be tagged as a star we can't lose.

Everything is not in a vacuum.

4 reasons why things have changed on Pace.

1. New System he excelled in.
2. Berry injured for half the season for a 3rd straight year, and by some reports in danger of not making the team.
3. Okeafer over the age of 30 coming off of a major season ending injury. Even if he was healthy we currently only have 1, count them, 1 3-4 OLB that we can trust if we lose Pace.
4. Need of better pass rush to help better our horribly bad pass D, thus magnifying the loss of a pass rusher. Which is why your last sentence is completely flawed and your whole idea "that it is just another reason for us to bag on Graves" is bogus and unfounded considering we are about to lose BJ as well but we aren't wringing our hands over that now are we.

 

[joeshmo]

the only reason we are in good shape this year is because of the way Graves structured the contracts in 2007.

Yes and No. In Holts case sure it does. But what kind of free agency plan is that to give Players roster Bonus money compared to signing bonus so you can cut them later say about how confident you are in your scouting ability of Free agents considering you think you will cut them is a high likely hood.

Now Hookem brought up a good point and very valid one for the Pro side of what Graves did.. Which I think I could buy.

But on the con side, if he didn't use mostly roster bonuses we could have signed more players. Meaning less cap space this season but we would also have more players under contract and have less worry about having to sign free agents, thus less worry about the cap. Also meaning possible better record now, not a likely hood but a higher possibility especially considering our injury history.

There are pros and cons to both sides of it. Which is why and I know I have said it in the past I liked Graves roster bonus idea just at more of a 50%-50% ratio to take advantages of more pro's for both sides of the argument and a great idea and great balance I think more and more teams would do and we could be on the cutting edge of that for a change.

 

[artp]

Everything is not in a vacuum.

4 reasons why things have changed on Pace.

1. New System he excelled in.
2. Berry injured for half the season for a 3rd straight year, and by some reports in danger of not making the team.
3. Okeafer over the age of 30 coming off of a major season ending injury. Even if he was healthy we currently only have 1, count them, 1 3-4 OLB that we can trust if we lose Pace.
4. Need of better pass rush to help better our horribly bad pass D, thus magnifying the loss of a pass rusher. Which is why your last sentence is completely flawed and your whole idea "that it is just another reason for us to bag on Graves" is bogus and unfounded considering we are about to lose BJ as well but we aren't wringing our hands over that now are we.

I know everyone is excited on my take on this. If we keep him, fine. If we lose him, I won't lose sleep over it.

 

[Sandan]

My point exactly.

Love to keep Pace, if not it is hardly a disaster

 

[40yearfan]

Yes and No. In Holts case sure it does. But what kind of free agency plan is that to give Players roster Bonus money compared to signing bonus so you can cut them later say about how confident you are in your scouting ability of Free agents considering you think you will cut them is a high likely hood.

Now Hookem brought up a good point and very valid one for the Pro side of what Graves did.. Which I think I could buy.

But on the con side, if he didn't use mostly roster bonuses we could have signed more players. Meaning less cap space this season but we would also have more players under contract and have less worry about having to sign free agents, thus less worry about the cap. Also meaning possible better record now, not a likely hood but a higher possibility especially considering our injury history.

There are pros and cons to both sides of it. Which is why and I know I have said it in the past I liked Graves roster bonus idea just at more of a 50%-50% ratio to take advantages of more pro's for both sides of the argument and a great idea and great balance I think more and more teams would do and we could be on the cutting edge of that for a change.

Well, we wouldn't have the $30 Million in cap space if Grave hadn't of done what he did.

As it turns out, the team progressed ( won 3 additional games) and we have the flexibility to keep our core players and add some more middle-of-the-road FA's. Whether we like waiting or not, this organization has a plan and is sticking to it. We all would like the process to go faster, but that isn't the path they've chosen to take. Hopefully, this plan will result in this team being good over a decade instead of just having a great year and then sinking into obscurity again.