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In the wake of getting swept by a very marginal ASU squad, most Arizona fans are looking for targets to throw blame at and rightfully so. Is it KO? The players? Officiating? Well, the reasons for this loss go back much further than the 12:30pm tip time. Arizona losing a step in the Pac-10 is a result of years of mismanagement and incompetence from the top of the athletic department all the way down to the players and fans. So I'll detail almost every involved figure's responsibility in this mess and how games like this have come to be.

1. Jim Livengood - As they say, it all starts at the top and Jim Livengood has been a poor AD his entire tenure at Arizona. He dragged his feet in getting the practice facility built which is finally scheduled to be completed this fall when it should have been done years ago to combat the negative recruiting Arizona faced with Lute's age. Livengood also torpedoed Lute's efforts to replace Jim Rosborough with Reggie Geary (currently an NBDL head coach) when Lute saw how soft, defensively poor, and misbehaving his teams had become. Geary, a very tough-nosed guy would have instilled some more toughness and not allowed the guys to screw around as Rosborough did. Anyways, Livengood intervened sparing his tennis buddy and drawing Lute's ire while the team continued to get softer on the court and more out of control off of it. Livengood also tried to derail Lute hiring KO this offseason, does anyone even want to imagine this team with Roz at the helm?

2. Lute Olson - The guy who built it also definitely has a huge hand in the falling empire of Arizona. Instead of hammering recruits and staying out of all night at AAU events to evaluate talent (directly responsible for a few high-profile recruiting misses), he spent his summers vacationing with Christine or babysitting her through their marital issues. Bobbi Olson passing away definitely played a part as well as she encouraged Lute and basketball even participating in the recruiting effort as opposed to Christine who hates basketball and the time it requires. But major college hoops requires maximum energy and effort from everyone including a guy in the HOF and Lute did not prioritize Arizona Basketball where it belongs considering the paycheck he is receiving.

3. The Assistant Coaches/Pastner - inexperienced poor evaluators who sometimes don't spend the time necessary to maintain a high-level program. Josh Pastner took over the bulk of the recruiting responsibilites once Lute started spending his time with Christine and failures in that aspect popped up almost immediately. It was Pastner that thought JP Prince and Fendi Onobun had more upside than Darren Collison and Lawrence Hill. Granted, Pastner works extremely hard and probably should not have held the power he did but the fact remains that his devotion to Houston Hoops players and infatuation with upside over talent really hurt.

4. The Assistant Coaches/Roz - Roz didn't recruit the last several years at Arizona. Only did game plans here and there. His main responsibilities were making sure the kids didn't screw up off the court and being a liason between alums and the program. The latter he did a fine job as Arizona alums in the NBA and overseas are very active in the program to this day. Arizona's elite camp is a huge recruiting weekend attended by all sorts of alums and that weekend locked down key recruits in each of the last few years. Keeping kids out of trouble off the court? Not so much. Player arrests are here and there, but kids have been seen quite frequently partying the nights before games (most notable was players at a frat house until the early morning when they had a noon tip that day, a game they lost to a bad Wazzu team) to the point Lute had to instill curfews and check the team in to a hotel the night before games even when in Tucson. This type of lax discipline has continued to the present day.

5. The Assistant Coaches/Other - Miles Simon took a decade to graduate college and his job experience consisted of Euro League and promoting for Gentle Ben's which is a bar/nightclub in Tucson for those non-UA alums. HOw does that get you a assistant coaching gig at what was at the time a top 10 college basketball program? He has yet to land a prized recruit in his time here and his inability as backcourt coach to develop Mustafa Shakur, Daniel Dillon or JP Prince has really hurt. And then there's Rodney Tention. At a time when UCLA was Lavinized Arizona only landed one elite West Coast recruit in Hassan Adams despite Zona being the 'it' program west of the Mississippi. As west coast recruiter, Tention "forgot" to offer Jon Brockman and failed to make any inroads with other West Coast players that could still be making an impact today. Check Loyola Marymount's record for Tention's coaching ability of lack thereof.

6. Kevin O'Neill - The "I'd rather lose by 20 playing man-to-man than win playing a zone" reminds me of Rob Evans' similarly stupid comment a few years back about his style of play. This team is extremely thin and needs to stay out of foul trouble, yet we have Jordan Hill our only frontcourt player worth a damn playing man against this conference's murderers row of bigs. ASU can't shoot from outside to save their life, yet Arizona allows them to pound it inside at will by playing man. Some people are better #2's than #1's and looking at KO's resume that might be the case. There's also a rumor going around that Lute wanted to sit down with KO and discuss the team dynamics a few weeks back and KO blew him off which cannot be forgiven.

7. The players - Selfish and soft are the two biggest adjectives that come to mind. There are a few exceptions (Jerryd Bayless) but the me-first attitude and complacency have cost this program numerous times. The name on the back of the jersey instead of the one on the front definitely consumes most of the players post-Gardner/Walton/Stick. Some of this is put on the coaches for not recruiting adequately or instilling any discipline but at the end of the day attitude problems are a personal thing.


So where does Arizona go from here? They'll most likely have a new AD in 2009 as Stoops and Livengood's fates are tied to this season and I'm not expecting much out of the Cats in football this year. KO will have a year of film in which to be evaluated as a head coach. Arizona is also getting a terrific class this fall. There is also Lute who might or might not return to the sidelines in 2008-2009 but if I were a gambling man I'd say no. One thing's for certain, the natives are restless and I expect some kind of major change in the offseason. Arizona Basketball is at a crossroads, decisions made in the next calendar year will decide whether Arizona fights it out for Pac-10 mediocrity with the ASU's of the world or gets back to the level competing with Stanford and UCLA. Time will tell.
 
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bankybruce

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In the wake of getting swept by a very marginal ASU squad, most Arizona fans are looking for targets to throw blame at and rightfully so.

Arizona Basketball is at a crossroads, decisions made in the next calendar year will decide whether Arizona fights it out for Pac-10 mediocrity with the ASU's of the world or gets back to the level competing with Stanford and UCLA. Time will tell.


Just curious why you have to bring ASU into this because I am not sure if you noticed, but you lost to Oregon at home. Just seems to me that your whole rant is sour grape at getting beat by a improving ASU team and it scares you that ASU could be better in 2 sports.

By the way ASU has UofA in baseball too.
http://collegebaseball.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=627294
 
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MaoTosiFanClub

MaoTosiFanClub

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You really think ASU is going to be a top tier hoops program? I've seen enough from Herb at State and ASU to realize he's never going to compete with the UCLA's of the world like he never could with Duke and UNC. ASU under Herb will be an average Pac-10 program. Average, mediocre, marginal all mean the same thing and is where both schools are currently. I'm not scared of ASU who doesn't have the resources to be an elite hoops program, I'm worried about my own program which does but is failing to utilize them.
 
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Arizona's Finest

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Just curious why you have to bring ASU into this because I am not sure if you noticed, but you lost to Oregon at home. Just seems to me that your whole rant is sour grape at getting beat by a improving ASU team and it scares you that ASU could be better in 2 sports.

By the way ASU has UofA in baseball too.
http://collegebaseball.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=627294

No offense bud but this thread is complelty UA related and for cats information. I don't mind rapport in these types of forums or threads but don't expect anyone in here to be deifying your program.

To expect him to defend his perception of ASU when it was 1/1000 of a otherwise great post is ridiculous.

You Suck. We Suck. Back and forth. Back and forth i get it. Save it for another thread.
 

Arizona's Finest

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In the wake of getting swept by a very marginal ASU squad, most Arizona fans are looking for targets to throw blame at and rightfully so. Is it KO? The players? Officiating? Well, the reasons for this loss go back much further than the 12:30pm tip time. Arizona losing a step in the Pac-10 is a result of years of mismanagement and incompetence from the top of the athletic department all the way down to the players and fans. So I'll detail almost every involved figure's responsibility in this mess and how games like this have come to be.

1. Jim Livengood - As they say, it all starts at the top and Jim Livengood has been a poor AD his entire tenure at Arizona. He dragged his feet in getting the practice facility built which is finally scheduled to be completed this fall when it should have been done years ago to combat the negative recruiting Arizona faced with Lute's age. Livengood also torpedoed Lute's efforts to replace Jim Rosborough with Reggie Geary (currently an NBDL head coach) when Lute saw how soft, defensively poor, and misbehaving his teams had become. Geary, a very tough-nosed guy would have instilled some more toughness and not allowed the guys to screw around as Rosborough did. Anyways, Livengood intervened sparing his tennis buddy and drawing Lute's ire while the team continued to get softer on the court and more out of control off of it.

I know you're more in the know then myself but I also know you have a slant as you are no fan of this guys past work. Couple things - How strained has his relationship with Lute been over the past few years? I would think that is the kiss of death in Tucson. What kind of guys have ties who could be potential replacements? And does that mean KO is all of a suddent "on alert"?


2. Lute Olson - The guy who built it also definitely has a huge hand in the falling empire of Arizona. Instead of hammering recruits and staying out of all night at AAU events to evaluate talent (directly responsible for a few high-profile recruiting misses), he spent his summers vacationing with Christine or babysitting her through their marital issues. Bobbi Olson passing away definitely played a part as well as she encouraged Lute and basketball even participating in the recruiting effort as opposed to Christine who hates basketball and the time it requires. But major college hoops requires maximum energy and effort from everyone including a guy in the HOF and Lute did not prioritize Arizona Basketball where it belongs considering the paycheck he is receiving.

Everyone assumes he is gone for good but if Christine is really out of the picture and she is what has been dragging him down - considering he is in good health - would that not make the case for him not only coming back - but maybe coaching another couple years after? Especially if KO continues to struggle, i would think that's likely.



3. The Assistant Coaches/Pastner - inexperienced poor evaluators who sometimes don't spend the time necessary to maintain a high-level program. Josh Pastner took over the bulk of the recruiting responsibilites once Lute started spending his time with Christine and failures in that aspect popped up almost immediately. It was Pastner that thought JP Prince and Fendi Onobun had more upside than Darren Collison and Lawrence Hill. Granted, Pastner works extremely hard and probably should not have held the power he did but the fact remains that his devotion to Houston Hoops players and infatuation with upside over talent really hurt.

Pastner is a hard working guy that coach likes. But he's no basketball coach. I am ashamed a couple years ago I thought of him as a potential replacement down the lone with Lute. His Houston connection has produced whiff after whiff after whiff. And what big man has progressed in his time coaching that unit?


4. The Assistant Coaches/Roz - Roz didn't recruit the last several years at Arizona. Only did game plans here and there. His main responsibilities were making sure the kids didn't screw up off the court and being a liason between alums and the program. The latter he did a fine job as Arizona alums in the NBA and overseas are very active in the program to this day. Arizona's elite camp is a huge recruiting weekend attended by all sorts of alums and that weekend locked down key recruits in each of the last few years. Keeping kids out of trouble off the court? Not so much. Player arrests are here and there, but kids have been seen quite frequently partying the nights before games (most notable was players at a frat house until the early morning when they had a noon tip that day, a game they lost to a bad Wazzu team) to the point Lute had to instill curfews and check the team in to a hotel the night before games even when in Tucson. This type of lax discipline has continued to the present day.

I agree with your Reggie Geary sentiment. Plus Roz loks like that guy from Law and Order.


5. The Assistant Coaches/Other - Miles Simon took a decade to graduate college and his job experience consisted of Euro League and promoting for Gentle Ben's which is a bar/nightclub in Tucson for those non-UA alums. HOw does that get you a assistant coaching gig at what was at the time a top 10 college basketball program? He has yet to land a prized recruit in his time here and his inability as backcourt coach to develop Mustafa Shakur, Daniel Dillon or JP Prince has really hurt. And then there's Rodney Tention. At a time when UCLA was Lavinized Arizona only landed one elite West Coast recruit in Hassan Adams despite Zona being the 'it' program west of the Mississippi. As west coast recruiter, Tention "forgot" to offer Jon Brockman and failed to make any inroads with other West Coast players that could still be making an impact today. Check Loyola Marymount's record for Tention's coaching ability of lack thereof.

LMAO. That Gentle Ben's line is classic.

6. Kevin O'Neill - The "I'd rather lose by 20 playing man-to-man than win playing a zone" reminds me of Rob Evans' similarly stupid comment a few years back about his style of play. This team is extremely thin and needs to stay out of foul trouble, yet we have Jordan Hill our only frontcourt player worth a damn playing man against this conference's murderers row of bigs. ASU can't shoot from outside to save their life, yet Arizona allows them to pound it inside at will by playing man. Some people are better #2's than #1's and looking at KO's resume that might be the case. There's also a rumor going around that Lute wanted to sit down with KO and discuss the team dynamics a few weeks back and KO blew him off which cannot be forgiven.

Very much undecided on him as of now. I like our effort and defensive intensity but it seems his abrasive manner and failure to adapt and forgo being stubborn arenot conducive to long term success.

7. The players - Selfish and soft are the two biggest adjectives that come to mind. There are a few exceptions (Jerryd Bayless) but the me-first attitude and complacency have cost this program numerous times. The name on the back of the jersey instead of the one on the front definitely consumes most of the players post-Gardner/Walton/Stick. Some of this is put on the coaches for not recruiting adequately or instilling any discipline but at the end of the day attitude problems are a personal thing.

Agree and the failure to keep LLP focused and in line with the program's goals for even a semester has turned to be a huuuge misstep. I love Bayless. The rest of the team other then the oaccasional flash from Budinger and Hill I could do without.


So where does Arizona go from here? They'll most likely have a new AD in 2009 as Stoops and Livengood's fates are tied to this season and I'm not expecting much out of the Cats in football this year. KO will have a year of film in which to be evaluated as a head coach. Arizona is also getting a terrific class this fall. There is also Lute who might or might not return to the sidelines in 2008-2009 but if I were a gambling man I'd say no. One thing's for certain, the natives are restless and I expect some kind of major change in the offseason. Arizona Basketball is at a crossroads, decisions made in the next calendar year will decide whether Arizona fights it out for Pac-10 mediocrity with the ASU's of the world or gets back to the level competing with Stanford and UCLA. Time will tell.

Great great post. Questions/Comments in BLUE
 

bankybruce

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No offense bud but this thread is complelty UA related and for cats information. I don't mind rapport in these types of forums or threads but don't expect anyone in here to be deifying your program.

To expect him to defend his perception of ASU when it was 1/1000 of a otherwise great post is ridiculous.

You Suck. We Suck. Back and forth. Back and forth i get it. Save it for another thread.

No offense bud, but the question was not for you. And it was a honest question. I wanted to know what is was necessary to bing ASU into the discussion on taking about a disappointing season when U of A has lost many other games to other teams they should not have.
 

bankybruce

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You really think ASU is going to be a top tier hoops program? I've seen enough from Herb at State and ASU to realize he's never going to compete with the UCLA's of the world like he never could with Duke and UNC. ASU under Herb will be an average Pac-10 program. Average, mediocre, marginal all mean the same thing and is where both schools are currently. I'm not scared of ASU who doesn't have the resources to be an elite hoops program, I'm worried about my own program which does but is failing to utilize them.

Never said they were going to be a top tier team, I said "Just seems to me that your whole rant is sour grape at getting beat by a improving ASU team and it scares you that ASU could be better in 2 sports."
 

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No offense bud, but the question was not for you. And it was a honest question. I wanted to know what is was necessary to bing ASU into the discussion on taking about a disappointing season when U of A has lost many other games to other teams they should not have.

Well since your so inquisitive why don't you start a thread in the ASU Forum entitled "Why don't the UA fans respect our programs?" and I'm sure you'll get a ton of replys.;)
 

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As for Lute, he will be back. Also, even though Lute is getting a divorce, the reason he is not coaching is because of family matters not related to Christine. It also has nothing to do with his health.

The one thing we can take from this year is that O'Neil is not the person who should be the head coach after Lute retires. I would like to see Dixon or Few come in. I would also like to see Livengood gone. No way the alumni and boosters will accept O'Neil as Lute's official replacement.
 

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Today I learned that I do not want Kevin to succeed Lute. I had given him credit because the takeover came about at the beginning of the season, but not anymore.
Today was the last straw. There is no excuse for Pendergraph and Glasser running the same exact play for 20+ points.

I had not heard the lose to man vs playing the zone comment before, but if he said that, the SOB must go. Basketball is all this program has and he's allowed
ASU to do something they haven't done in 14 years. Cat fans can claim no Lute all we want, but the fact remains that ASU beat UA twice and that's just unacceptable.

The whole athletic program does need to be overhauled, the fact that Stoopid is still there after signing day comments proves it. Wars of words can win you an election, but not football games or recruits.

MaoTosiFanClub, excellent write up.
 

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The problem you guys face, which Mao has rejected before, is that UA may not be that attractive a job and your days as an NCAA power may be over.

Lute made the program great. Without him, the success may not be sustainable.

Try this: Assume Lute and KO are both gone. Name the coaches you would like to have and state why you think they'd be willing to coach in Tucson.
 
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The problem you guys face, which Mao has rejected before, is that UA may not be that attractive a job and your days as an NCAA power may be over.

Lute made the program great. Without him, the success may not be sustainable.

Try this: Assume Lute and KO are both gone. Name the coaches you would like to have and state why you think they'd be willing to coach in Tucson.
Try this: Money.

AZ pays more for their head basketball coach than any team in the Pac-10 and Lute's salary (even with taking a hometown discount) is in the top 10 nationally. Money makes any job attractive. It makes a job with top-notch tradition, facilities, and community support even more desirable.

Arizona is in the top 5 of all college basketball programs in revenue generation. They'll have the best practice facility in the country open this fall. They cast a wide net with alumni who can be mined for extra funds. I've been told that UA can justify somewhere around $2 million per season for a basketball head coach. That kind of money talks and gets you into a lot of doors. As for who would realistically come to AZ?

Jamie Dixon - Flirted with ASU until Pitt gave him a raise. Pitt wouldn't be able to match Arizona's salary if we really wanted him. If he was willing to take the ASU job he'd jump at Arizona.

Mark Few - Not as realistic but he'd be offered a lot more money than what he's getting in Spokane. Plus he'd be in a one horse town which was the big reason he didn't taken other high-profile jobs such as UCLA.

Scott Drew - Would also double his salary and get a better opportunity than Baylor which is off the beaten path and has academic/moral/NCAA disadvantages.

Tony Bennett - Would get a raise in salary, living conditions, exposure, and opportunity. Considering he's already been mentioned as a possibility at some other schools far down the totem pole than Arizona he'd jump at the opportunity.

John Calipari - Not sure I'd want him but he was about to take the NC State job and like State we could give him a nice raise over Memphis. That is unless we crap the bed and refuse to pay for his assistants like State did. Cal's not going to be coaching Memphis in 2010, you can book that and where else would an opportunity like Arizona come up between now and then?

NCAA coaches would be banging down the door to get the Zona job. UA's new president already said during his first week on the job he was approached at a dinner party by a very successful coach at a very successful program who told him to keep him in mind when Lute steps down. The job won't be tough to fill with a qualified head coach, the question is whether Jim Livengood has the creativity and desire to get that guy. Thankfully he probably won't be making the decision so until our new AD is hired all bets are off.
 

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Saying the UA job isnt attractive anymore is 100% wrong. Mao made a great post and trust me there are several good coaches that would die to coach at UA. I dont think it will matter, because I think KO is a good guy to replace Lute. Now how long he stays is a different story.

KO sealed our recruiting class by holding down Withey and Jennings due to his NBA ties. His system will be different, but if he IS a good coach and will be able to recruit very good players. You dont coach in the NBA by falling into the job. He has received some very high compliments by many respected NBA coaches for his ability to coach and teach his defensive schemes. Now he isnt exactly the greatest offensive coach, but I think he has done a very good job installing some of his sets and plays and they have worked well when we are at full strength.

KO is using Nic, Jerryd, Chase, and Jordan like they would be used in the NBA. Chase is running off screens, rubs, weaves, much like he will do in the NBA until he can consistently create his own shot. Jerryd is getting a lot of high pick and roll, isolation, and rubs, much like scorers get in the NBA. Jordan is being used pretty well, but the guards have to get him the ball on the block better. Jordan is still a work in progress, but I like how KO is using him and letting him step out and take his man off the dribble.
 
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Arizona's Finest

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Saying the UA job isnt attractive anymore is 100% wrong. Mao made a great post and trust me there are several good coaches that would die to coach at UA. I dont think it will matter, because I think KO is a good guy to replace Lute. Now how long he stays is a different story.

KO sealed our recruiting class by holding down Withey and Jennings due to his NBA ties. His system will be different, but if he IS a good coach and will be able to recruit very good players. You dont coach in the NBA by falling into the job. He has received some very high compliments by many respected NBA coaches for his ability to coach and teach his defensive schemes. Now he isnt exactly the greatest offensive coach, but I think he has done a very good job installing some of his sets and plays and they have worked well when we are at full strength.

KO is using Nic, Jerryd, Chase, and Jordan like they would be used in the NBA. Chase is running off screens, rubs, weaves, much like he will do in the NBA until he can consistently create his own shot. Jerryd is getting a lot of high pick and roll, isolation, and rubs, much like scorers get in the NBA. Jordan is being used pretty well, but the guards have to get him the ball on the block better. Jordan is still a work in progress, but I like how KO is using him and letting him step out and take his man off the dribble.

Here is my problem with KO and what I already see happening in just 4 months. He is abrasive, runs his teams into the ground, and stubborn and inflexible around his coaching style. Lets face it. There is a reason he has worn out his welcome everywhere he has gone.

And I still am not sure of his recruiting ability. Its one thing to keep commitments locked in (especially when those same players really couldn't opt out without sitting out a year). It a whole other avenue when you are making first contact and going into a kids home.

Oh and your comment that he is getting these guys NBA ready? If anything Chase has regressed BIG TIME with KO. I don't think KO's tough coaching style is conducive to "Casper the Friendly Ghost's" paper mache mental state.
 

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Here is my problem with KO and what I already see happening in just 4 months. He is abrasive, runs his teams into the ground, and stubborn and inflexible around his coaching style. Lets face it. There is a reason he has worn out his welcome everywhere he has gone.

what does he do to run his teams into the ground? Realistically he only has a 6 man rotation when we are at full strength. KO plays match ups, just like he would in the NBA. I seem to remeber everyone being hell bent over Lute's lack of subbing his bench last year out of conference. People then complained because everyone was dead tired 3/4 of the way through the season, due to all the minutes played.

This year KO has used more of the bench, with lesser talent and in some cases playing guys that really dont even deserve to get playing time.

And I still am not sure of his recruiting ability. Its one thing to keep commitments locked in (especially when those same players really couldn't opt out without sitting out a year). It a whole other avenue when you are making first contact and going into a kids home.

You are right it is one thing to keep them locked in and another to recruit. However, he has done a very good job recruiting in his previous jobs, and was widely regarded as one of the better recruiters in the country. Just watch Hoop Dreams.

Oh and your comment that he is getting these guys NBA ready? If anything Chase has regressed BIG TIME with KO. I don't think KO's tough coaching style is conducive to "Casper the Friendly Ghost's" paper mache mental state.


How has Chase regressed big time under KO? Last time I checked he was scoring more than last year, rebounding at the same rate, has more assists, has more three pointer made already and is a better defender (even though he still isnt that good). Chase is in a completely different system this year and he is still putting up huge numbers, even with a 1-12 performance against ASU. Chase has scored 20+ points 9 times this season, he did that 6 times all of last year. Chase needs to get emotional and play with passion, but that KO's fault. If anything KO's system is getting him ready for his role in an NBA offense while using him extremely well on our team.
 
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Mao did make a good post. We'll see how it plays out.

Other than tweaking a few noses around here from time to time, I'd like nothing better than to see UA/ASU hoops games matter in national standings every year

For that to happen, ASU needs to get better and UA needs needs to get back to the talent level they used to have.

I think it's too soon to write off KO. That's panic.

Meanwhile, the ASU sweep was very satisfying.
 

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