Cards not planning go after big names FA

[Redsz]

Name me one example in two years under Green where he has shown an ability to make adjustments? Especially at the half? Much less two games into the season?

As far as I know Green isn't in charge of play calling or X's and O's.

But I thought Clancy Pendergast did a great job of taking away the TE from oppossing offenses this year. Something that really hurt us last year. I also thought he (Pendergast) did an excellent job of changing how we used Adrian Wilson in stopping the run and using him as a blitzer during mid season.

I also thought Keith Rowen did a good job of using a short passing game to try and cover up our weakness at running the ball. Surprisingly we dominated TOP against opposing teams. Which is something that just does not happen when you are so pass happy.

 

[Evil Ash]

The Pats lost just as many games to injury as we did--they were decimated--and still went to the playoffs. The excuses end here.

Because they had DEPTH. In order to have depth you have to add several players not just one or two. If we sign a big name player to the contract that they want, we can't add that many more players and if he gets hurt we're screwed yet again

Can't have it both ways. Like I said earlier (and no one has refuted), we might still go after the top tier players but only if they are willing to sign at a reasonable amount. If they won't lower their demand (which would be stupid in a buyer's market for RBs) then there is no point in going after them.

 

[Shane]

Because they had DEPTH. In order to have depth you have to add several players not just one or two. If we sign a big name player to the contract that they want, we can't add that many more players and if he gets hurt we're screwed yet again

Can't have it both ways. Like I said earlier (and no one has refuted), we might still go after the top tier players but only if they are willing to sign at a reasonable amount. If they won't lower their demand (which would be stupid in a buyer's market for RBs) then there is no point in going after them.

We could easily sign a Bentley, Lewis, and a Chris Hope with the cap money we have and another two decent players if done right. That would signifigantly raise our overall talent level and make us deeper. Throw in the draft on top of it with a # 1 pick that will be needed to contribute right away.

Im betting we dont even talk to such players much less attempt to bring them in.

 

[kerouac9]

Shane, who are the "big boys" that you want the Cards to "compete with"? It seems to me that the Cards get a ton of value from their free agents (a note that you haven't refuted this entire thread), and have stayed cap healthy so far in part because of that.

Would you really rather have the Cards spend like the Redskins, have one playoff season in four years, and then have to have a fire sale to get under the cap if the CBA isn't re-negotiated? Who are these "big boys" beyond Daniel Snyder?

Thanks in advance.

Bump for Shane, who apparently wasn't responding to a comment that I actually made. Please respond to the bolded sections. Thanks.

Also: can you please name the "blockbuster, 1st-tier" free agent acquisions who have worked out for their teams in the past--say--five years? Just to know that the Cards have a great chance of success if they start throwing eight-figure signing bonuses at guys. It's not like I haven't posted free-agent bust after bust.

Thanks again. Look forward to hearing your considered, not-at-all-shrill response.

 

[Shane]

Bump for Shane, who apparently wasn't responding to a comment that I actually made. Please respond to the bolded sections. Thanks.

Also: can you please name the "blockbuster, 1st-tier" free agent acquisions who have worked out for their teams in the past--say--five years? Just to know that the Cards have a great chance of success if they start throwing eight-figure signing bonuses at guys. It's not like I haven't posted free-agent bust after bust.

Thanks again. Look forward to hearing your considered, not-at-all-shrill response.

Uhm the Seatle Seahawks would be a good example of an Owner with endles pockets, Dan Snyder, Jerry Jones and Im sure there are afew others if I wanted to dig deeper.

Corey Dillon is a prime example! Simeon Rice, Reggie White(last 5 years has bearing how?) The simple fact is that it can work and has. Just because it hasnet happened for the skins doesnt mean its not a smart thing to do.

Now that I have answered you do me the favor and answer my ?'s that I left for you and you have ignored:

Why are you thanking me? Do you think that you are so smug as to be correct in your line of thinking and thats all there is to it?

Who gives a damn about value with FA's? I have been all for these types of contracts in the past no doubt about it. But It obviously aint working. I got two glaring things that show something different needs to be done they are as follows:

6-10
5-11

What more needs to be said?

This team has been doing whats smart fiscally and it has got them nowhere except another top 10 pick in the draft. Its time to go dramatic and shake things up. We have the ability to make a giant splash and we should do it. Are you saying you wouldnt be happy with signing an Edge, Bentley, and say a Julian Peterson to replace Huff? Are you literally trying to tell me signings like that would only give us one solid playoff run and then we would be done? Yea because it didnt work in Washington means it cant work elsewhere That is the dumbest logic ever.

I would gladly take a few years of cap hell if put us in a winning situation for a few years and a shot at a SB. Who wouldnt?

 

[Evil Ash]

We could easily sign a Bentley, Lewis, and a Chris Hope with the cap money we have and another two decent players if done right. That would signifigantly raise our overall talent level and make us deeper. Throw in the draft on top of it with a # 1 pick that will be needed to contribute right away.

None of those players with the possible exception of Lewis is a big name guy, which is the ONLY THING THAT THEY ARE SAYING THEY WON'T DO. You're agreeing with their stance without even knowing it.

Im betting we dont even talk to such players much less attempt to bring them in.

I'm sure we've already talked with their agents with a conversation where the word "hypothetically" was used early and often. The way things pan out IMO will be based on how the market is for those players early in FA. If no one gives them the contract they want during that time, where demands are at their highest, then we'll go after them.

 

[Shane]

None of those players with the possible exception of Lewis is a big name guy, which is the ONLY THING THAT THEY ARE SAYING THEY WON'T DO. You're agreeing with their stance without even knowing it.



I'm sure we've already talked with their agents with a conversation where the word "hypothetically" was used early and often. The way things pan out IMO will be based on how the market is for those players early in FA. If no one gives them the contract they want during that time, where demands are at their highest, then we'll go after them.

Saying the best player at his position in the NFL is not a big name guy is just skewing the argument to fit your point. Bentley is easily a BIG NAME FA!

Chris Hope is the best S available. Maybe not a top flight FA but a good one to be sure.

 

[Evil Ash]

Saying the best player at his position in the NFL is not a big name guy is just skewing the argument to fit your point. Bentley is easily a BIG NAME FA!

Interior lineman aren't really seen as big name FA and if you want to compare the level of contract that the top FA RBs are going to get compared to the top interior lineman its not even going to be close.

I mean seriously how many do you know (besides the people one here) know who the heck Bentley is? Do you know many people that talked about the Center for the Saints with regularity?

Chris Hope is the best S available. Maybe not a top flight FA but a good one to be sure.

Good but not big name player. Meaning someone we still might go after

 

[Shane]

Interior lineman aren't really seen as big name FA and if you want to compare the level of contract that the top FA RBs are going to get compared to the top interior lineman its not even going to be close.

I mean seriously how many do you know (besides the people one here) know who the heck Bentley is? Do you know many people that talked about the Center for the Saints with regularity?



Good but not big name player. Meaning someone we still might go after

What the average fans no or think has no bearing on Bentleys status as a top flight FA. He is an interior OL who is highly regarded around the NFL as probably the best C in football or close to it. He is a big time FA and by that standard I highly doubt this team even pursues him.

Yes we probably still could get Hope. But would I rather have a Jonathan Wells, or Najeh Davenport and Wells or Jamal Lewis and Hope? I think most peole would resoundingly pick the latter.

 

[kerouac9]

Uhm the Seatle Seahawks would be a good example of an Owner with endles pockets, Dan Snyder, Jerry Jones and Im sure there are afew others if I wanted to dig deeper.

Corey Dillon is a prime example! Simeon Rice, Reggie White(last 5 years has bearing how?) The simple fact is that it can work and has. Just because it hasnet happened for the skins doesnt mean its not a smart thing to do.

Now that I have answered you do me the favor and answer my ?'s that I left for you and you have ignored:

Why are you thanking me? Do you think that you are so smug as to be correct in your line of thinking and thats all there is to it?

Who gives a damn about value with FA's? I have been all for these types of contracts in the past no doubt about it. But It obviously aint working. I got two glaring things that show something different needs to be done they are as follows:

6-10
5-11

What more needs to be said?

This team has been doing whats smart fiscally and it has got them nowhere except another top 10 pick in the draft. Its time to go dramatic and shake things up. We have the ability to make a giant splash and we should do it. Are you saying you wouldnt be happy with signing an Edge, Bentley, and say a Julian Peterson to replace Huff? Are you literally trying to tell me signings like that would only give us one solid playoff run and then we would be done? Yea because it didnt work in Washington means it cant work elsewhere That is the dumbest logic ever.

I would gladly take a few years of cap hell if put us in a winning situation for a few years and a shot at a SB. Who wouldnt?

1) What were the top-tier free agents that Seattle has brought in in the past three or four years? All their stars have been homegrown. The one that I remember (LB Simmons) was a huge bust for them and got released last offseason. That's not a good example, is it?

2) Cory Dillon wasn't signed as a free agent. He was traded for a 2nd round pick.

3) Simeon Rice was signed 6 years ago, but it was to a less-than-market contract on the short term, not a blockbuster deal. He re-negotiated the next season to become one of the highest paid DEs in football. That wasn't a blockbuster contract. It was smart money, which you seem to be against.

4) Reggie White became a Packer in 1992. 14 years is a long time when you're talking about how the salary cap system has changed. It doesn't really seem that relevant.

5) That it hasn't happened for the 'Skins and now they're depending on a CBA renegotiation to keep them from being over the cap doesn't really seem to me to be an endorsement of the way they do business. Jerry Jones has been working free agency more like the Cards and Pats than Snyder lately.

So, your premises are faulty. That being said, you say that "what we've been doing hasn't been working", but what Jones and Snyder did hasn't been working, either. On the other hand, the Patriots, Seahawks, Steelers, Rams, Panthers, etc. have maintained excellence the past few years by keeping their home-grown players and adding reasonable free agents in the offseason to shore up positions of need. The Eagles were doing the same thing, and working toward a Super Bowl, but then they got into trouble when they--yup--started signing "big names" to big contracts and now they finished at the bottom of their division.

 

[ajcardfan]

Seattle signed Grant Wistrom to a huge deal two years ago. A 14 mil bonus. It looked like a disaster after the first year, but he played okay this year. Nowhere near the value of his contract, but he was a good starter.

It's obvious the draft is far more important to building strong teams than free agency. There just isn't a good team in the last 15 years where the core was put together in free agency.

 

[Evil Ash]

What the average fans no or think has no bearing on Bentleys status as a top flight FA. He is an interior OL who is highly regarded around the NFL as probably the best C in football or close to it. He is a big time FA and by that standard I highly doubt this team even pursues him.

He's not that that good of a C or else he would have gone to the Pro Bowl this year. The only year he has gone to the Pro Bowl was when he was a guard.

How can he be considered the best but not even be considered good enough to make the Pro Bowl roster for the NFC?

Besides the point we don't know what they consider to be elite FA besides Alexander or Edge (whom I'm sure they were asked about directly) so at this point all you're doing is assuming. Lets wait until FA actually starts and see what happens before having a heart attack, shall we?

 

[red desert]

Wow! Thanks for not calling me a "*******" (whatever that means)... all I was suggesting is that few people, and fewer on this board - have ever been involved in writing contracts. Evidently, given your reaction... you're one of those... and it's somehow a sore point.

Relax! have a stout....

Don't know if your were referring to me, but if you were... I was just contacted by a former "world champion boxer" to represent him in contract negotiaions. I am considering it. I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[red desert]

It's not that difficult to understand. It's the sports business philosophy they enunciated when Green was hired and repeated before last year's Free Agency period. And, I for one - think it's the solid, workmanlike approach that is most likely to bring solid returns on the field.

--------------------------

Both Graves and coach Dennis Green were quick to shoot down the idea the Cardinals have seemingly limitless cap room to spend money (The NFL Network this week said the Cards have an NFL-high $23 million in cap room).

Graves said that after figuring in tender offers to restricted and exclusive-rights free agents and budgeting in estimates for the rookie pool and contract extensions for this season, the money available for free agency “drops dramatically.” Graves wouldn’t provide a number, but he said it is less than $15 million.

As for potential free agent targets, Green reiterated that the team will chase offensive linemen, although he admitted “there aren’t a lot of them.”

“We have identified guys we will go after,” Graves said. “Some of those players might not be top-name players, but we are looking for guys like Bertrand Berry and others who we feel like will come into our situation and still be hungry enough to produce.”

Here's the thing, though.

Do you, or I, or anyone else on this board, really care how the Cards organizaion go about their business? All we care about is whether or not they win. And as of today they haven't. Green has been at the helm for two years and we still haven't won (keep in mind my premise - winning, not showing improvement, not spending more or less on FA, only winning.) When they start winning then we'll get off their back. Until then, it is not only our duty, but our obligation, to call out the organization on what the hell they are doing back there.

 

[D-Dogg]

Don't know if your were referring to me, but if you were... I was just contacted by a former "world champion boxer" to represent him in contract negotiaions. I am considering it. I'll let you know how it goes.

Don't let him bite your ear.

 

[john h]

Does anyone else think that signing mid tier guys like we have always done is competing with the big guys?

No!

 

[john h]

We are consistently terrible, and had one of the worst rushing attacks in history. People can try to justify it as much as they want, these "mid tier" acquisitions that sometimes pan out, sometimes don't. We have multiple top tier running backs out there, and supposively increased revenues from the new stadium. I'm sorry, if we get a bunch of mediocre players, and end up 6-10, 7-9 next year, I will be incredibly pissed.

Graves or ever said we do not have as much money as it appears because we have to set aside money for the draft, etc is sort of missing some details. The other teams have the same problems so in the end we will still have more money to spend than nearly every other team in the NFL. I do not get the excuse making and the FA period has not even started. Sounds like we may be in for some disappointment and it further sounds like this type of info comes straight from the Owners. Graves and DG did not dream this up on thier own. It would be in DG's best interest to spend every dollar he could and get the best FA's he can afford. Tomorrow is upon us. We are not playing for 2007. I am not ready to give up on the season before it begins. I am getting this sick feeling in my stomach from the rumblings out of Graves and DG.

 

[Duckjake]

Here's the thing, though.

Do you, or I, or anyone else on this board, really care how the Cards organizaion go about their business? All we care about is whether or not they win. And as of today they haven't. Green has been at the helm for two years and we still haven't won (keep in mind my premise - winning, not showing improvement, not spending more or less on FA, only winning.) When they start winning then we'll get off their back. Until then, it is not only our duty, but our obligation, to call out the organization on what the hell they are doing back there.

 

[blindseyed]

Graves or ever said we do not have as much money as it appears because we have to set aside money for the draft, etc is sort of missing some details. The other teams have the same problems so in the end we will still have more money to spend than nearly every other team in the NFL. I do not get the excuse making and the FA period has not even started. Sounds like we may be in for some disappointment and it further sounds like this type of info comes straight from the Owners. Graves and DG did not dream this up on thier own. It would be in DG's best interest to spend every dollar he could and get the best FA's he can afford. Tomorrow is upon us. We are not playing for 2007. I am not ready to give up on the season before it begins. I am getting this sick feeling in my stomach from the rumblings out of Graves and DG.

I think what is bothersome is the fact they come out and say we will NOT pursue a big name FA...OK so you've just narrowed your options. Now if they DO sign someone like Edge, then they lied, if they go after a 'mid teir' FA and get mediocre players, then it's the 'same ole' Cards' and gives the perception that now that they have their new stadium, they can go back and save all the money they can. I don't understand the talking by Graves and Green saying they won't go after a big name FA ,why not say "We're looking at every FA possible who could help our team" and leave it at that? Especially when trying to get the city juiced up for the new stadium.Maybe they come on here and like seeing all of us freak out

 

[slanidrac16]

The key here is to upgrade, plain and simple. I don't want to have a situation where we are depending on converted d-lineman to anchor a position on the offensive line.
Experience along our offensive line has been sorely missed. Will Step or Lechey suddenly blossom into all-pros? Not likely. May they blossom in the near future with some more seasoning and coaching? MAybe. But we can't just do nothing and hope it happens
Would I be excited if we were to get a guy like Edge. Of coarse. But my optimism would be held in check if we did nothing else.
Go out and get me Bentley, another o-lineman and a back like Lewis and I'll still be excited.
I just see this a a year to break out. It appears the talent level is almost to a point where we have a real shot at knocking on the playoff door. If thats true then lets add a couple of key pieces and try to knock the door down.....THIS YEAR.

 

[joeshmo]

He's not that that good of a C or else he would have gone to the Pro Bowl this year. The only year he has gone to the Pro Bowl was when he was a guard.

How can he be considered the best but not even be considered good enough to make the Pro Bowl roster for the NFC?

First I dont see how going to the pro bowl means anything about the worth of a player, especialy one that is 50% fan voting. If the pro bowl was any indication the you must not think Boldin is one of the best WR's in the nfc.

Second, players from crappy teams tend to get a bias towards not going to the pro bowl by both the fan and NFL votes.

Third - he went to the pro bowl as an OG once, Went to the Pro bowl as an OC once, was an 1st alternate for the pro bowl as a OC his first year at the position, and I believe he was a 1st alternate this year as well. so he has been to the pro bowl as a OG and an OC.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Don't know if your were referring to me, but if you were... I was just contacted by a former "world champion boxer" to represent him in contract negotiaions. I am considering it. I'll let you know how it goes.

No I wasn't referring to you.... and good luck...

 

[kerouac9]

1) What were the top-tier free agents that Seattle has brought in in the past three or four years? All their stars have been homegrown. The one that I remember (LB Simmons) was a huge bust for them and got released last offseason. That's not a good example, is it?

2) Cory Dillon wasn't signed as a free agent. He was traded for a 2nd round pick.

3) Simeon Rice was signed 6 years ago, but it was to a less-than-market contract on the short term, not a blockbuster deal. He re-negotiated the next season to become one of the highest paid DEs in football. That wasn't a blockbuster contract. It was smart money, which you seem to be against.

4) Reggie White became a Packer in 1992. 14 years is a long time when you're talking about how the salary cap system has changed. It doesn't really seem that relevant.

5) That it hasn't happened for the 'Skins and now they're depending on a CBA renegotiation to keep them from being over the cap doesn't really seem to me to be an endorsement of the way they do business. Jerry Jones has been working free agency more like the Cards and Pats than Snyder lately.

So, your premises are faulty. That being said, you say that "what we've been doing hasn't been working", but what Jones and Snyder did hasn't been working, either. On the other hand, the Patriots, Seahawks, Steelers, Rams, Panthers, etc. have maintained excellence the past few years by keeping their home-grown players and adding reasonable free agents in the offseason to shore up positions of need. The Eagles were doing the same thing, and working toward a Super Bowl, but then they got into trouble when they--yup--started signing "big names" to big contracts and now they finished at the bottom of their division.

Bump for Shane. AJ helped you out by naming Grant Wistrom, who hasn't done much of anything for the Seahawks. You're pretty quick to accuse others of using shaky reasoning and not being rational when addressing the team. Where are you when your foundations are crumbling? Thanks for your consideration.

 

[Shane]

Bump for Shane. AJ helped you out by naming Grant Wistrom, who hasn't done much of anything for the Seahawks. You're pretty quick to accuse others of using shaky reasoning and not being rational when addressing the team. Where are you when your foundations are crumbling? Thanks for your consideration.

Your welcome. You get consideration and a response when you give me the same courtesy of answering my questions as I have you> Until then I wont respond to you. Its pointless.

 

[kerouac9]

Your welcome. You get consideration and a response when you give me the same courtesy of answering my questions as I have you> Until then I wont respond to you. Its pointless.

It's hard to respond reasonably to questions that are faulty at their foundations... But I gave it a shot:

That being said, you say that "what we've been doing hasn't been working", but what Jones and Snyder did hasn't been working, either. On the other hand, the Patriots, Seahawks, Steelers, Rams, Panthers, etc. have maintained excellence the past few years by keeping their home-grown players and adding reasonable free agents in the offseason to shore up positions of need. The Eagles were doing the same thing, and working toward a Super Bowl, but then they got into trouble when they--yup--started signing "big names" to big contracts and now they finished at the bottom of their division.

Everyone in the NFL gives a damn about "value" in free agents. Your top-shelf RB is only as good as his last season... until the next one starts. If we throw $25 million and Shawn Alexander and he puts up 1300 yards and 8 TDs, that's not good value, and we're in trouble for trying to fix other positions the next season (like #2 or nickel cornerback because Macklin will be a free agent). That's not good value. The Steelers have been great the past decade because they understand the value of their players and once the demands exceed the value, they let the players walk. The reason that the Seahawks are apparently willing to let Alexander walk is because they don't feel that his value lines up to his price tag. Same with Edge and the Colts. Do you really think that you know better?

Would I be excited if the Cards signed Edge, Bentley, and Peterson? Depends on the contract amounts--everything does in the NFL. Spending like drunken sailors doesn't get you very far--just ask Daniel Snyder. Or Jerry Jones. But we've already talked about this. Or, I have. You haven't bothered to respond.

I'm really not all that hot-to-trot for Peterson for a number of reasons. Mainly because his cost exceeds his value (at least to the 49ers), but also because Sam Cowart (a player that I liked when he was with the Bills) had the same injury and was never the same player again. If we got Peterson for Huff money, I'd be ecstatic. If we got Peterson for Roosevelt Colvin money, much less so.

I'll take a well-built team in October that can sign their pending free agents ahead of time over a bunch of headlines in March.

But that's just me.