Cards not planning go after big names FA

[joeshmo]

I think people are reading way to much into the quote when you put it up next to the commentary next to the quote. But I can see were everyone is coming from as well. It is hard not to read doom and gloom from anything that comes out of our organizations mouth, its hard not to to and they have given us reason to do so, until proven other wise. Them saying they will change is one thing but they are just words until proven otherwise.

In the end I think Graves should have just kept his mouth shut. Go ahead and give some insight into your thought process but do like Denny did in his last interview with Gambo and Ash and side step the subject as much as possible. You may not go after a certian player but dont tell the fans that, especially the 2 biggest FA's on the market in a position of need, both being quoted as saying AZ as a destination and not expect a backlash on those comments about not going after them at all.

To not even give them a call about their price is a mistake. Its one thing to give them a call and find out they are asking for way to much and will destroy your other plans or you are being used as a bidding pawn, but to not call them at all is a mistake as well. So in Graves saying no right off the bat I do disagree with him with.

 

[kerouac9]

Green is no Belichek. Not even close. I dont see Belichek whiffing and signing big time mid tier busts such as Ross and Huff.

We were promised big time FA's and that we would pursue them by the Bidwills.

Really? Then I guess you weren't paying attention when Belichek signed Chad Brown and Monty Beisel last offseason. Both big names, and neither of them contributed anything to that team. Roosevelt Colvin was a huge free agent signing for them three years ago, and he just started to produce this last season. Before that, he had all of 21 tackles as a Patriot.

I mean, if you want to mischaracterize Green's free agent accomplishments by citing two guys over and over, you're welcome to it, but it seems to me when you add in guys like Berry, Okeafor, Warner, Ayanbadejo, Robert Tate, Robert Griffith, and David Macklin, you get a pretty solid group of contributors.

And you also seem to think that "big name" equates to "big production." How'd that work out when we signed Duane Starks and Freddie Jones in free agency? Those were the two biggest names that year, and they didn't contribute much in their time here. And people have already listed the number of "big name" free agent busts that have happened recently for other teams. I'd love to go back and see if you were on the "WE MUST SIGN TROY VINCENT OR BOBBY TAYLOR OR THE SKY WILL FALL" bandwagon two offseasons ago with Jeff Gollin and others. That was some excellent foresight, fellas.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Looking at the other side,the last 3 Super Bowl winners ,Pitts and NE, never seem to bring in any high profile free agents and just get guys that fit their system. I can see Green doing that. It's nice to make the big splash in free agency but, for some reason, the results don't usually translate into wins on the field. I would be happy with a list similar to the one posted earlier with Bentley,Keamouto, Demps,and Davenport. Throw in a Jamar Fletcher and i think it would be a pretty good free agecy. They fill needs and then you draft BPA all the way through.

shawn colvin was considered a big signing by the pats at the time.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I know we finished 5-11 last year....but talent wise I don't think we have that far to go.

can we just make this an automatic post for some people to select every year like the smiley emoticons?

 

[kerouac9]

shawn colvin was considered a big signing by the pats at the time.

The lady who sings that "Sunny Came Home"? Boy, she hasn't done much for that team.

But neither had Rosie Colvin until this season, Year 3 of his deal...

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Didn't Belichick just last year fork over a 3rd round draft pick for Duane Starks? Yeah, the guy is good but he ain't perfect.

Fact remains that there are much more free agent busts than steals. That's why good personnel people will tell you that free agency is for filling holes while the draft is for building a foundation. We have been lucky in that a couple pieces of the foundation of the Cardinals came via free agency but they are more the exception than the rule.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

1. As stated earlier, Huff wasn't brought in to be anointed a starter.
2. Duane Starks.

no, but he WAS brought in with the thought that he'd compete for a starting outside job. they "liked his speed" for the outside if i remember correctly. i'm pretty sure they expected him to start as they never said anyone else "lost" their job.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

I'd love to go back and see if you were on the "WE MUST SIGN TROY VINCENT OR BOBBY TAYLOR OR THE SKY WILL FALL" bandwagon two offseasons ago with Jeff Gollin and others. That was some excellent foresight, fellas.

Let's not forget Vonnie Holliday and Jevon Kearse.

 

[kerouac9]

Yeah, well, call it 'elite', call it 'top tier', or whatever...I smell a rat, and the smell had better be dispelled come FA. If we end up singing a few mid-tier guys with the ability we have to be major players, it'll be same old, same old. WE CAN MAKE A SPLASH AND GET SOME REAL IMPACT PLAYERS. DO IT!!!

Right. Impact players like Hugh Douglas, Troy Vincent, Bobby Taylor, Freddie Jones, Duane Starks, Emmitt Smith, Jessie Armstead, Jeremiah Trotter, Chad Lewis, Fred Smoot, Marco Coleman, Monty Beisel, Derreck Blaylock, David Patten, Anthony Becht, Kendrell Bell, Andre Dyson, etc., etc.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I can for Huff, not for Ross.

Was Huff great, no, but he was better then average which was an upgrade compared to that spot in 2004. How anyone can say that he sucked especially after what we saw out of the position in 2004, what his price tag is, and the amount of injuries to the front 4 in front of him is beyond me.

better than average? c'mon. average at best. i can't recall any big plays and even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

There are more then just mid tier guys though Shane. There are still top tier guys such as Berry and Okeaker and what we though was Ross. One didnt pan out. We spent 5 Mill on each one.

Just becuase we wont go after the elite big money FA's doesnt mean only Mid tier FA's. 5 mill a year which is what we did last year for 2 guys isnt mid tier status that is top tier. And we will do it again this year. Whether those top tier guys will work out is another story.

calling okeafor a "top tier" guy is a stretch at best. he's slightly above average. i think most of you way overrate our players.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Yeah, well, call it 'elite', call it 'top tier', or whatever...I smell a rat, and the smell had better be dispelled come FA. If we end up singing a few mid-tier guys with the ability we have to be major players, it'll be same old, same old. WE CAN MAKE A SPLASH AND GET SOME REAL IMPACT PLAYERS. DO IT!!!

This is hilarious. Every year you have a meltdown somewhere around free agency (you had a reason for doing so under Graves/McGinnis) because we weren't bringing in "impact players" and for the last two years we have been pleasantly surprised with the class Green has brought in. I'm confident that with even more money we'll be just fine again this year.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I mean, if you want to mischaracterize Green's free agent accomplishments by citing two guys over and over, you're welcome to it, but it seems to me when you add in guys like Berry, Okeafor, Warner, Ayanbadejo, Robert Tate, Robert Griffith, and David Macklin, you get a pretty solid group of contributors.

And you also seem to think that "big name" equates to "big production." How'd that work out when we signed Duane Starks and Freddie Jones in free agency? Those were the two biggest names that year, and they didn't contribute much in their time here. And people have already listed the number of "big name" free agent busts that have happened recently for other teams. I'd love to go back and see if you were on the "WE MUST SIGN TROY VINCENT OR BOBBY TAYLOR OR THE SKY WILL FALL" bandwagon two offseasons ago with Jeff Gollin and others. That was some excellent foresight, fellas.

first, i have no doubt that starks would have been a big contributor had he stayed healthy, but health is a difficult thing to predict. and if i recall correctly freddie was a big signing for us b/c he was a name, he might have been courted by two more teams, but he was hardly a hot commodity at the time.

as for you other list, macklin was alright his first year and pretty bad last year. 'femi is a role player. tate is nothing but depth, and not great depth at that. and griffith didn't really have an even average year last year.

berry and warner look like good signings. okeafor looks like an okay signing.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The lady who sings that "Sunny Came Home"? Boy, she hasn't done much for that team.

But neither had Rosie Colvin until this season, Year 3 of his deal...

lol, yeah, her too!

 

[Redsz]

calling okeafor a "top tier" guy is a stretch at best. he's slightly above average. i think most of you way overrate our players.

51 tackles, 7.5 sacks, 8.5 TFL, 3 FF and 2 PD on an injury plaqued line while facing most of the double teams is 'slightly above average'?

 

[kerouac9]

first, i have no doubt that starks would have been a big contributor had he stayed healthy, but health is a difficult thing to predict. and if i recall correctly freddie was a big signing for us b/c he was a name, he might have been courted by two more teams, but he was hardly a hot commodity at the time.

as for you other list, macklin was alright his first year and pretty bad last year. 'femi is a role player. tate is nothing but depth, and not great depth at that. and griffith didn't really have an even average year last year.

berry and warner look like good signings. okeafor looks like an okay signing.

I don't know. The years when Starks did say relatively healthy, he wasn't what we were paying him to be, which was a cornerback in the class of Champ Bailey and Chris McAllister. I was a supporter of Duane, but he was a big bust as a free agent, and busted "elite" free agents are more damaging to a franchise than a guy like Oliver Ross, who I think can still contribute.

For the list, Macklin was better last year than you're giving him credit for, Joe's done the research on it, and I agree with him. He's been rock-solid at the #2 cornerback spot, where we haven't been solid in what seems like forever. He's twice the player that Renaldo Hill was. And his price tag is minimal, which is so important when you're talking about a free-agent cornerback in today's market. Tate isn't great, but he's been a minimum-salary spot player who's made more than his fare share of "big plays", especially considering his talent level. Femi's exactly the same, only he's been a starter and a contributor. Considering what we've been paying Marcel Shipp to do even less the last couple years, and James Hodgins, well, I don't have to tell you the value that 'Femi's been to this franchise.

It seems to me like free agents should be graded on a performance + cost scale. Except for Oliver Ross, I think that Denny's free agent classes have been absolute blockbusters considering the prices that we've gotten for them. The money we've saved in free agency has directly contributed to being able to re-sign guys like Boldin, Rackers, and Adrian Wilson, as well.

 

[Duckjake]

Right. Impact players like Hugh Douglas, Troy Vincent, Bobby Taylor, Freddie Jones, Duane Starks, Emmitt Smith, Jessie Armstead, Jeremiah Trotter, Chad Lewis, Fred Smoot, Marco Coleman, Monty Beisel, Derreck Blaylock, David Patten, Anthony Becht, Kendrell Bell, Andre Dyson, etc., etc.

Emmitt not an impact player for the Cards!?!?

You have to go back to Donnie Anderson in 1973 to find a RB who scored more rushing TD's for the Cardinals in a single season.

And he had the most yards rushing of any Cardinal RB in the last 7 years.

 

[earthsci]

no, but he WAS brought in with the thought that he'd compete for a starting outside job. they "liked his speed" for the outside if i remember correctly. i'm pretty sure they expected him to start as they never said anyone else "lost" their job.

It was open competition. He won. When we signed Warner, "Kurt will be our QB". When we signed Chike, "Chike will be our DE". When we signed Huff, "Huff will compete for a starting position". My point is that this picture of us only signing mid-tier FAs is not acurate.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

I don't know. The years when Starks did say relatively healthy, he wasn't what we were paying him to be, which was a cornerback in the class of Champ Bailey and Chris McAllister. I was a supporter of Duane, but he was a big bust as a free agent, and busted "elite" free agents are more damaging to a franchise than a guy like Oliver Ross, who I think can still contribute.

For the list, Macklin was better last year than you're giving him credit for, Joe's done the research on it, and I agree with him. He's been rock-solid at the #2 cornerback spot, where we haven't been solid in what seems like forever. He's twice the player that Renaldo Hill was. And his price tag is minimal, which is so important when you're talking about a free-agent cornerback in today's market. Tate isn't great, but he's been a minimum-salary spot player who's made more than his fare share of "big plays", especially considering his talent level. Femi's exactly the same, only he's been a starter and a contributor. Considering what we've been paying Marcel Shipp to do even less the last couple years, and James Hodgins, well, I don't have to tell you the value that 'Femi's been to this franchise.

It seems to me like free agents should be graded on a performance + cost scale. Except for Oliver Ross, I think that Denny's free agent classes have been absolute blockbusters considering the prices that we've gotten for them. The money we've saved in free agency has directly contributed to being able to re-sign guys like Boldin, Rackers, and Adrian Wilson, as well.

Fantastic post!

 

[BigRedArk]

I don't know. The years when Starks did say relatively healthy, he wasn't what we were paying him to be, which was a cornerback in the class of Champ Bailey and Chris McAllister. I was a supporter of Duane, but he was a big bust as a free agent, and busted "elite" free agents are more damaging to a franchise than a guy like Oliver Ross, who I think can still contribute.

For the list, Macklin was better last year than you're giving him credit for, Joe's done the research on it, and I agree with him. He's been rock-solid at the #2 cornerback spot, where we haven't been solid in what seems like forever. He's twice the player that Renaldo Hill was. And his price tag is minimal, which is so important when you're talking about a free-agent cornerback in today's market. Tate isn't great, but he's been a minimum-salary spot player who's made more than his fare share of "big plays", especially considering his talent level. Femi's exactly the same, only he's been a starter and a contributor. Considering what we've been paying Marcel Shipp to do even less the last couple years, and James Hodgins, well, I don't have to tell you the value that 'Femi's been to this franchise.

It seems to me like free agents should be graded on a performance + cost scale. Except for Oliver Ross, I think that Denny's free agent classes have been absolute blockbusters considering the prices that we've gotten for them. The money we've saved in free agency has directly contributed to being able to re-sign guys like Boldin, Rackers, and Adrian Wilson, as well.

Yeah good post K 9. I especially agree on that made-out-of-balsa-wood FB Hodgins.

 

[WildBB]

I really believe we need to sign A HIGHER PROFILE FA OL. It's the biggest need on the team to upgrade that position and Rook OLmen rarely contribute much their 1st year or two.

The Cardinals have been pretty consistent in signing 1 Higher Profile Player in FA in each of the last 2 yrs. (Berry & Okefer) and need to continue that trend by hopefully landing Bentley as this years catch.

Then they can address the Rb issue at the draft where a Rook can have a more immediate impact - esp. a high draft pick (Williams or Brown). Bring on LenDale in Glendale!

 

[Shane]

Not true. We, make that I have been told by M Bidwill [as near as I can remember] "We are adjusting our business plan on the assumtpion of revenues from the new stadium"

I interpreted that to me that we are going to be more agreesive in FA and more create in contracts both for FAs and draftees. Both os these has come to pass.

Nowhere have they ever said that Big Name free agents were a priority or even of any great interest. I have always got the distinct impression that they felt that most Big names get way overpaid based on PAST production.



We will/do have better cash flow but I have heard nothing to suggest that the Big names are in the frame. Personally I also think that in most circumstances they are way overpaid and we would do better to find the guys on the verge of becoming a big name.

Ian I like you a lot. But to the point you havent said one negative thing about this team or what it does since you were given you press passes two seasons ago for ASFN to have free roam at training camp and at closed practices at their facility. It seems since then you have been able to rub elbows of sorts with the upper echelon of Cards management/ownership and been given little perks your judgemnet has been clouded. Its like you truly believe them to be nice people and wont make any sort of comment that is negative towards them. Thats all well and good but I can distinctly remember you being more critical of this organization prior to that. So I really dont put a lot of weight into what you say anymore when it comes to your opinions about how they operate.

Now back on topic. That quote by Mike Bidwill is all well and good. But that family has openly in the public and in the papers outright stated that they will spend more money and openly compete with the big boys of the NFL when they get the new stadium. They stated they will be able to attract bigger name FA's with better revenue. You can try to spin that anyway you want but its a fact.

The only contract they have really been creative with have been rookie contracts. They havent done that because of the stadium. But IMO because they had no choice. Salaries have gotten to high for the rooks. They had to come into this century at somepoint or players would just refuse to play for them. The contracts that we have been giving our FA player are hardly full of bells and whistles or all that tricky as you say we have been doing. They are base salaries with base bonuses spread out over the length of the deal. The only thing thats good about them is that they seem to be cap friendly for the team in later years.

Guys tooting Greens horn for bringing guys in here like Griffith, Huff, Femi, and Ross lose all cedibility IMO. Okeafor is far from a Top Tier FA like Ouchie has already stated. He is a slightly above average DE in the NFL. Nothing more and nothing less he will never sniffa pro bowl or be an alternate. He was a good signing but singing the teams praises saying he was a top flight FA is just plain and simply incorrect. The same goes for Macklin. He is a better CB than we have had but he is merely average at the position.

Its time for this team to go out and spend like they promised they would. They need to spend to the caps limit and bring in a guy like Edge, a guy like Bentley, and a guy like Julian Peterson and a few more depth guys. This team has the cap room to do it. Especially if they do finally get creative with a contact or two. Aquistions like that would put this team in immediate contention for the playoffs and make it the most talented team we have seen in AZ. It would also create a fan buzz that has never been seen.

There are no more excuses. The team need to put butts in the seat and win games. Not just putting buts in the seats because teh stadium is a first year novelty that everyone wants to see. But because they are serious about winning and show it!

 

[ajcardfan]

Its time for this team to go out and spend like they promised they would. They need to spend to the caps limit and bring in a guy like Edge, a guy like Bentley, and a guy like Julian Peterson and a few more depth guys. This team has the cap room to do it. Especially if they do finally get creative with a contact or two. Aquistions like that would put this team in immediate contention for the playoffs and make it the most talented team we have seen in AZ. It would also create a fan buzz that has never been seen.

Shane,

Can you name me any team that spent big on multiple big name free agents and went from 5-11, or so, to the playoffs? I honestly can't think of an example like that. It's much easier to think of big name signings that didn't pan out.

There's no doubt in my mind we'll sign a handful of players this year. Frankly, I don't care what the contracts are, I just want to win. If we don't, Green is gone and we start over. Again.

 

[joeshmo]

better than average? c'mon. average at best. i can't recall any big plays and even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.

Well then you dont recall correctly.

No big plays, he lead the team in tackles for loss. On a team with a blitz on every down Wilson, Dansby, Okeafer, that is a pretty big accomplishment that is more then just a blind squirrel finding a nut once in a while, he also lead Berry in TFL before he was injured as well.

 

[joeshmo]

macklin was alright his first year and pretty bad last year.

Do you people watch games at all.

I have already many times stated without any debate at all from other posters who have said that same thing as you that Macklin actually had a better year this past season. You dont have a top 10 pass D and have a bad CB playing one spot and 2 rookies/Tate playing the other spot. That just is not possible.

Macklin is the most underappreciated player in this team.

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