Centers Really Do Take Longer

[George O'Brien]

I've been following the debate over Hunter on some other boards and Magic fans say he was awful. Yet every report says he is very long and very athletic. Is his weak play so far proof he won't get better? I think it is worth while looking a the career of Mark Blount who received a full MLE contract from the Celtics with several other teams bidding.

Drafted after sophomore season by the Seattle SuperSonics in the second round (55th overall) of the 1997 NBA Draft. ... Waived by the SuperSonics on 10/7/97. ... Played in the CBA with the Yakima Sun Kings (1997-98 ). ... Signed as a free agent by the L.A. Clippers on 1/22/99. ... Waived by the Clippers on 1/31/99. ... Signed as a free agent by the Boston Celtics on 8/1/00. ... Signed as a free agent by the Denver Nuggets on 8/8/02. ... Traded by the Nuggets with Mark Bryant to the Boston Celtics for Shammond Williams, a second-round draft pick in 2003 and cash on 2/20/03.

Mark Blount
Boston Celtics
Position: C
Height: 7-0 Weight: 250
College: Pittsburgh '99
Player file | Team stats

2003-04 Statistics
PPG 10.3
RPG 7.2
APG .9
SPG .98
BPG 1.29
FG% .566
FT% .719
3P% .000
MPG 29.3

He supposedly averaged a double double over the last three months of the season and was important in the Celtics getting into the playoffs. Blount did not make an impact until he was 28 years old during his second stint with Boston. Some guys just take longer to develop.

 

[scotsman13]

one other thing that is important to understand with hunter is that for the first time he is going to have a big man coach in Marc Iavaroni.

jake may not be the best center but he has shown importment every year and is a valueable role player for this team. he may never lead the nba in rebounding or shot blocking but he will give this team six hard fouls and be an energy player off the bench.

i have heard it said that you need to give a point guard 5 years to learn the nba and a center at least 3 years for them to learn the game. and when you are talking about a player that has only been in the nba for a 3 years and had a major injury in that time i think he could be very good player in the mark west mode without some of the fouls.

 

[Joe Mama]

I hope like hell that Hunter plays well for the Phoenix Suns, but I'm going to play devil's advocate here.

I'm sure for every guy like Mark Blount there are two or three centers drafted in the second half of the first round with just never amount to anything in the NBA. Using one player as an example to prove that centers really do take longer to develop is hardly compelling.

I like Jake Voskuhl. I think he's a nice backup center. However IMO his improvement over the last three seasons has been minimal. I certainly wouldn't use him as an example of the great big man coaching for the Phoenix Suns. In fact I have yet to see any big man in the Phoenix Suns organization improve by leaps and bounds. Amare Stoudemire was better last season offensively, but I'm not convinced he couldn't have done that on his own.

Joe Mama

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

You beat me to it Joe!

 

[Gaddabout]

In fact I have yet to see any big man in the Phoenix Suns organization improve by leaps and bounds.

For about 20 games, Nick Vanos went from hopeless to blue-chip prospective. He looked ready to move into the upper class of NBA big men before going down in the plane crash.

Most young centers look lost on the floor. It's not just that they don't know where they're supposed to be on the floor, they don't know why or how. For most big men, they've never had to do much to be productive until they get to the NBA, where the size advantage is immediately neutralized.

 

[wsupkid]

For about 20 games, Nick Vanos went from hopeless to blue-chip prospective. He looked ready to move into the upper class of NBA big men before going down in the plane crash.

Most young centers look lost on the floor. It's not just that they don't know where they're supposed to be on the floor, they don't know why or how. For most big men, they've never had to do much to be productive until they get to the NBA, where the size advantage is immediately neutralized.

Yes, RIP Nick V.

Andrew Lang passed all dreams that we had for him.

 

[Mainstreet]

Originally posted by wsupkid

Andrew Lang passed all dreams that we had for him.

I think Andrew Lang would have developed into an even better center if he had remained in Phoenix.

Yes, 1988 was a very good year for the Suns in the NBA draft... Tim Perry, Dan Majerle, Andrew Lang and Steve Kerr.

 

[scoutmasterdave]

Yes, 1988 was a very good year for the Suns in the NBA draft... Tim Perry, Dan Majerle, Andrew Lang and Steve Kerr.

It was especially good when you consider that Lang & Perry became half of Charles Barkley a few years later...

 

[elindholm]

It was especially good when you consider that Lang & Perry became half of Charles Barkley a few years later...

What's particularly impressive is that if you have Lang and Perry on one side, and half of Barkley on the other, the weights come out to be almost identical.

 

[George O'Brien]

I think Jake has improved quite a bit on the offensive end . On defense he still kills himself with dumb fouls (getting called for reach-in fouls on the perimeter are dumb). He has improved his interior defense, but it is negated by the lack of respect he gets from the refs. Opponents know they will get the calls against him and are encouraged to attack him. The fact that he is not a shot blocker means that he has to try to take charges - which are often judgement calls.

Jake gets too many "moving pick" calls on offense, but often they are due to teammates starting before the pick is set. Marbury in particular would start too quickly almost every play.

Jake has gotten better, but he remains what he is: a physically limited former second round pick. I expect he will keep better by cutting down on the mental mistakes, but all the coaching in the world is not going to make him taller or a great jump athlete.

 

[Joe Mama]

First of all, I was talking about these current group of coaches. They've been here for about three years now.

Secondly, I wouldn't say Jake Voskuhl has improved one iota offensively. If he's improved anywhere it's been on defense, and the improvements have been fairly minimal.

Joe Mama

 

[NJYAJ09]

maybe he'll make a jump like Magloire or Dalembert?

 

[scotsman13]

First of all, I was talking about these current group of coaches. They've been here for about three years now.

Secondly, I wouldn't say Jake Voskuhl has improved one iota offensively. If he's improved anywhere it's been on defense, and the improvements have been fairly minimal.

Joe Mama

joe i think you are being much to critical on both the coaching staff and jake as a player (sure he is limited as a shot blocker and rebounder) but he tries very, very hard and comes to play ever game.

from about the haft way mark last season we started seeing jake take a nice 15 ft shot and making it. it wasnt anything you would count on but it was starting to move people out from the basket to guard him.

 

[Joe Mama]

joe i think you are being much to critical on both the coaching staff and jake as a player (sure he is limited as a shot blocker and rebounder) but he tries very, very hard and comes to play ever game.

from about the haft way mark last season we started seeing jake take a nice 15 ft shot and making it. it wasnt anything you would count on but it was starting to move people out from the basket to guard him.

How am I being overly critical? I like Jake Voskuhl. He is an adequate backup center. He does try very hard and I appreciate that. However he has not improved much IMO.

I'm not sure what Jake Voskuhl you were watching last season because I watched every game, and he rarely made that jumper even after the halfway point.

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

How am I being overly critical? I like Jake Voskuhl. He is an adequate backup center. He does try very hard and I appreciate that. However he has not improved much IMO.

I'm not sure what Jake Voskuhl you were watching last season because I watched every game, and he rarely made that jumper even after the halfway point.

Joe Mama

I'm not sure Jake made a huge number of short jumpers, but he made enough that it was not a complete surprise. He scored some of the time on the pick and roll, although I'm not sure he was used that wasy as much after Marbury left.

Overall, Jake's stats went up because his minutes went up. Did this mean he played better or it was just that there was no one else? I'm inclined to think he played better, but lack of competition for minutes was certainly a factor.

In any case, I think the claim that the Suns coaches are crappy because Voskuhl isn't a vastly better player is a reach.

 

[arthurracoon]

It was especially good when you consider that Lang & Perry became half of Charles Barkley a few years later...

What's particularly impressive is that if you have Lang and Perry on one side, and half of Barkley on the other, the weights come out to be almost identical.

 

[Joe Mama]

I'm not sure Jake made a huge number of short jumpers, but he made enough that it was not a complete surprise. He scored some of the time on the pick and roll, although I'm not sure he was used that wasy as much after Marbury left.

Overall, Jake's stats went up because his minutes went up. Did this mean he played better or it was just that there was no one else? I'm inclined to think he played better, but lack of competition for minutes was certainly a factor.

In any case, I think the claim that the Suns coaches are crappy because Voskuhl isn't a vastly better player is a reach.

no, Jake Voskuhl took a bunch of jump shots, but I guarantee he shot under 40% from there. I kept hoping he would start making them consistently. He never did. In fact he or consistently missed those shots. Most of the time the shot looked good. It just wouldn't go down.

I think you and Scotsman need to go back and take some reading classes. I never said that coaches are crappy. Scotsman and others are claiming that the Phoenix Suns have one of the best big man coaches in the NBA, and I said that so far it doesn't look like he has done much for this team.

Look, I hope Ivoroni does great things with our big men. I just haven't seen anything yet that leads me to believe he can.

Joe Mama

 

[Gaddabout]

Look, I hope Ivoroni does great things with our big men. I just haven't seen anything yet that leads me to believe he can.

Iavoroni's track record with big men is not questioned. The talent he has to work with should be. When discussing Jake's development, how much more are expecting out of him? I think he's nearly piqued his abilities.

 

[Joe Mama]

Iavoroni's track record with big men is not questioned. The talent he has to work with should be. When discussing Jake's development, how much more are expecting out of him? I think he's nearly piqued his abilities.

it was Scotsman who originally used Jake Voskuhl as an example of someone who the Phoenix Suns coaching staff, specifically Iavoroni, has improved. In fact he said that Little Jake has shown improvement every year. I disagree. If Jake Voskuhl has improved the difference has been minimal IMO.

I would still like someone to provide examples of the big men that Iavoroni has improved whether it's someone with the Phoenix Suns, Miami Heat, were somewhere else.

Joe Mama

 

[Gaddabout]

I would still like someone to provide examples of the big men that Iavoroni has improved whether it's someone with the Phoenix Suns, Miami Heat, were somewhere else.

Anyone who's coached at Pete Newell's camp get a pass in the category, IMO, but Iavoroni was there for 10 years. He tutored Zydrunas Ilgauskas in Cleveland, and was considered the primary reason for his rapid success. He is considered "the guru" among active coaches in the NBA when it comes to big men.

I don't see any holes in his credentials.

 

[sunsfn]

Anyone who's coached at Pete Newell's camp get a pass in the category.

I agree.........I also think that Jake Voskuhl has improved every year.

 

[cepstrum]

Iavoroni's track record with big men is not questioned. The talent he has to work with should be. When discussing Jake's development, how much more are expecting out of him? I think he's nearly piqued his abilities.

I think this is a great point that people are failing to realize. Jake was a second round pick for goodness sakes. The guy should thank his lucky stars he's even in the NBA. To top it all off, he went from a filler to make a trade work, to someone that is a regular contributer thanks to the coaching staff.

 

[cepstrum]

I would still like someone to provide examples of the big men that Iavoroni has improved whether it's someone with the Phoenix Suns, Miami Heat, were somewhere else.

Joe Mama

Joe, Amare averaged 24 and 10 after the all star break. Im sure that had something to do with the coaching staff.

 

[Joe Mama]

Anyone who's coached at Pete Newell's camp get a pass in the category, IMO, but Iavoroni was there for 10 years. He tutored Zydrunas Ilgauskas in Cleveland, and was considered the primary reason for his rapid success. He is considered "the guru" among active coaches in the NBA when it comes to big men.

I don't see any holes in his credentials.

well, I hope you are right. He certainly has some young talent to work with now in Amare Stoudemire, Stephen Hunter, Lampe, and Cabarkapa. We'll see what he and the rest of the coaching staff can do with these guys. But again, my original point was that we've seen little evidence so far in the Phoenix Suns of this great coaching. I agree that with the exception of Amare Stoudemire that probably has worked to do with the talent level. That's why I disagreed with Scotsman's use of Little Jake as an example of someone who has shown much improvement every season under their tutelage.

I think this is a great point that people are failing to realize. Jake was a second round pick for goodness sakes. The guy should thank his lucky stars he's even in the NBA. To top it all off, he went from a filler to make a trade work, to someone that is a regular contributer thanks to the coaching staff.

Little Jake has been a pleasant surprise. For the record he was not filler to make a trade work. If anybody was filler it was Samake who went to Chicago along with a second round draft pick in the deal for Jake Voskuhl.

Again, in my opinion in Little Jake is better than he was when he came to the Phoenix Suns, but he's not so much better that he should be used as an example of the great big man coaching here.

Joe, Amare averaged 24 and 10 after the all star break. Im sure that had something to do with the coaching staff.

Amare Stoudemire did show some improvement. I had to remind myself that he missed the entire last summer recovering from surgery, and he was injured for much of the season. However I'll be most impressed with the coaching (Iavoroni's as well as Larry Brown's) if Amare Stoudemire learns how to play good team defense and box out properly on the boards.

Joe Mama