College Football vs. Professional Football

[RugbyMuffin]

This story is not going away, and is just getting bigger and bigger.

I have had a few soap box rants about how from college football down, is almost a completely different game than pro football.

Here is Bruce Arians (who better to use as a reference? ) on how offensive line play coming out college is producing talent that has no idea how to play the NFL game.

http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2016/02/25/nfl-combine-notes-cleveland-browns-la-rams

 

[Chopper0080]

Hopefully this leads to the NFL being a developmental league more in the future. Maybe some expanded rosters as well, and larger coaching staffs. I believe Keim's comment of Humphries is some revisionist history, but I do believe this is why so many college linemen are struggling to develop, especially the more athletic ones.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Hopefully this leads to the NFL being a developmental league more in the future. Maybe some expanded rosters as well, and larger coaching staffs. I believe Keim's comment of Humphries is some revisionist history, but I do believe this is why so many college linemen are struggling to develop, especially the more athletic ones.

Really ?

Cause the more I think about it, the more I realize that it is really hard to think of the last offensive linemen that came into the league as a rookie and was a success.

Matt Kalil in Minnesota was supposed to be a can't miss prospect, now he may be cut, and there are many, many more examples of players like that who have not played up to expectations.

 

[pinetopred]

I think we are to a place where if I were a nfl GM certain colleges and position would be graded down because of the systems they run, no matter where a player grades out. I'll take a lower graded player from a system that translates to what you are doing

 

[Chopper0080]

Really ?

Cause the more I think about it, the more I realize that it is really hard to think of the last offensive linemen that came into the league as a rookie and was a success.

Matt Kalil in Minnesota was supposed to be a can't miss prospect, now he may be cut, and there are many, many more examples of players like that who have not played up to expectations.

I don't believe Keim drafted Humphries under the idea that Humphries would not be active all year. That is the revisionist part. I think people are going to have to start adjusting their expectations regarding linemen moving forward. Year two will say a lot about Humphries just like it did for Cooper.

Ereck Flowers was pretty good for the Giants last year. Zach Martin. Tyron Smith was pretty good. Trai Turner. Gabe Jackson. Apparently a lot of interior players come to mind right away.

 

[kerouac9]

Really ?

Cause the more I think about it, the more I realize that it is really hard to think of the last offensive linemen that came into the league as a rookie and was a success.

Matt Kalil in Minnesota was supposed to be a can't miss prospect, now he may be cut, and there are many, many more examples of players like that who have not played up to expectations.

Larry Warford.

Zack Martin.

Kyle Long was a beast coming out of Oregon.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I don't believe Keim drafted Humphries under the idea that Humphries would not be active all year. That is the revisionist part. I think people are going to have to start adjusting their expectations regarding linemen moving forward. Year two will say a lot about Humphries just like it did for Cooper.

Ereck Flowers was pretty good for the Giants last year. Zach Martin. Tyron Smith was pretty good. Trai Turner. Gabe Jackson. Apparently a lot of interior players come to mind right away.

I thought Flowers was pretty good too, unfortunately, NYC doesn't agree with us.

Zach Martin was really good out of college, Tyron Smith is an amazing OT, but it took him a few years.

If you think people should start adjusting their expectations on offensive linemen coming in, why isn't it possible that the Cardinals have already adjusted their expectations ? Keim and Arians do this for a living, it is not out of the question they realized this before we did, just sayin.

Personally, I think the way the Cardinals are attacking the offensive line is the best way to do it in the current setup of the NFL.

Get the offensive linemen as free agents and let other teams go through teaching them the game. Its why if Matt Kalil gets cut, I would like to see the Cardinals kick the tires on him.

Regardless, the point being is that college has become so different that there are now positions that are almost worthless to to pick if you are expecting any immediate production.

 

[kerouac9]

I thought Flowers was pretty good too, unfortunately, NYC doesn't agree with us.

Zach Martin was really good out of college, Tyron Smith is an amazing OT, but it took him a few years.

If you think people should start adjusting their expectations on offensive linemen coming in, why isn't it possible that the Cardinals have already adjusted their expectations ? Keim and Arians do this for a living, it is not out of the question they realized this before we did, just sayin.

Personally, I think the way the Cardinals are attacking the offensive line is the best way to do it in the current setup of the NFL.

Get the offensive linemen as free agents and let other teams go through teaching them the game. Its why if Matt Kalil gets cut, I would like to see the Cardinals kick the tires on him.

Regardless, the point being is that college has become so different that there are now positions that are almost worthless to to pick if you are expecting any immediate production.

I imagine that they expected that Humphries might not beat out Massie this year — I think they're being honest that they didn't anticipate a (big) role for him this year. I don't think they anticipated him being a less attractive option right now than Sowell and Watford.

 

[Buckybird]

I thought Flowers was pretty good too, unfortunately, NYC doesn't agree with us.

Zach Martin was really good out of college, Tyron Smith is an amazing OT, but it took him a few years.

If you think people should start adjusting their expectations on offensive linemen coming in, why isn't it possible that the Cardinals have already adjusted their expectations ? Keim and Arians do this for a living, it is not out of the question they realized this before we did, just sayin.

Personally, I think the way the Cardinals are attacking the offensive line is the best way to do it in the current setup of the NFL.

Get the offensive linemen as free agents and let other teams go through teaching them the game. Its why if Matt Kalil gets cut, I would like to see the Cardinals kick the tires on him.

Regardless, the point being is that college has become so different that there are now positions that are almost worthless to to pick if you are expecting any immediate production.

Well said.

Blame it all on the spread offense! It's everywhere!

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Larry Warford.

Was so wrong about this guy. Thought he would be a bust.

Dude is almost as wide as he is tall.

 

[CardLogic]

Re: http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_145652833681712&key=5613b684aa3b1b62ae1e3b27389f1b6a&libId=il4b8eg80100xltj000DA4n6250fe&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.arizonasportsfans.com%2Fvb%2Fnewreply.php%3Fdo%3Dpostreply%26t%3D232476&v=1&out=http%3A%2F%2Fmmqb.si.com%2Fmmqb%2F2016%2F02%2F25%2Fnfl-combine-notes-cleveland-browns-la-rams&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.arizonasportsfans.com%2Fvb%2Ff4%2Fcollege-football-vs-professional-football-232476.html&title=Arizona%20Sports%20Fans%20Network%20-%20Reply%20to%20Topic&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fmmqb.si.com%2Fmmqb%2F2016%2F02%2F25%2Fnfl-combine-notes-cleveland-browns-la-rams

Snead explained that the Rams had looked into the records for every quarterback since 2012 that had started at least 45 games and analyzed their winning percentage based on the amount of points that quarterback’s team allowed. Of the 21 quarterbacks, only one had a winning record if his team allowed 25 or more points.

Does anyone have an idea who the one QB is? My guess is Tom Brady.

 

[oaken1]

it appears that most people have forgotten the days in the NFL when it was rare for a rookie to start. These days everyone wants instant gratification,...rookies should start and if they don't make the pro bowl they were a bust........ the proof is all over this web page.

IMO, the player who can step from the college game to the pro game and actually be effective is rare, dominant is even more so.....we did get spoiled with a few years of some really good kids coming into the league. But honestly over the past five years most of them were not as good as they were billed to be. All over the internet we see, "The next Ray Lewis"...reminds me of "Adrian Peterson".... plays just like "John Elway"... when what is usually the case is we have a player with some talent who has been allowed to run on talent alone without coaching....college coaches these days will start a kid who can only throw the ball 20 yards if he can complete 70% of those passes...with the right play design he sure does look good on the stat sheets...but he will fail in the nfl.
there is not enough true talent at the college level...we rarely ever get to see the top pass rusher go head to head against the best OT in the game...so instead of seeing how a guy plays against other top talents we get highlight reels of how well he plays against future insurance salesmen...that is why it is so important to look for players that absolutely dominate against their competition...and the truth is, we really only get to see maybe five players a year like that at best. Outside of those players all the rest have holes in their game and need to either be covered for or developed in order to be effective players at the nfl level.

 

[GuernseyCard]

Really ?

Cause the more I think about it, the more I realize that it is really hard to think of the last offensive linemen that came into the league as a rookie and was a success.

Matt Kalil in Minnesota was supposed to be a can't miss prospect, now he may be cut, and there are many, many more examples of players like that who have not played up to expectations.

Fisher (KC) had all kinds of problems in year one.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Was listening to KTAR on my phone this morning, and the morning crew had Bruce Arians on.

They spoke about this EXACT topic.

Bruce Arians is as old school as it gets, and even he said that he is seeing more pro teams run college type offenses. No so much because that is what the coaches want to do, but more about the players they are getting out of college.

You going to re-teach a player and hope he translates, or are you going to adapt your own system to fit to what these young players can do.

With the reduction of practice time, this is they way things are going. Cannot say that I am happy to hear it since I am not as big a fan of the college game as I am the "pro game" but in the last two years, the pro game is starting to look like the college game.

The next question will be, will college out compete the pro sport ? I mean, it is the same product, and they will be in direct competition.

On a side note, Roger Goodell may be the worse commissioner and leader I have ever seen. Was he given this job to destroy the NFL ? Because between the HORRIBLE rule changes, the constant controversy and horrible handling of the controversies, and the lack of fore sight to see what some of the bargained deals, like reduction of practice time, has done to this game, he is doing an FANTASTIC job of running this league into the ground. He literally is writing the book on how to kill a golden goose.

Time they are a changing.

 

[GuernseyCard]

Was listening to KTAR on my phone this morning, and the morning crew had Bruce Arians on.

They spoke about this EXACT topic.

Bruce Arians is as old school as it gets, and even he said that he is seeing more pro teams run college type offenses. No so much because that is what the coaches want to do, but more about the players they are getting out of college.

You going to re-teach a player and hope he translates, or are you going to adapt your own system to fit to what these young players can do.

With the reduction of practice time, this is they way things are going. Cannot say that I am happy to hear it since I am not as big a fan of the college game as I am the "pro game" but in the last two years, the pro game is starting to look like the college game.

The next question will be, will college out compete the pro sport ? I mean, it is the same product, and they will be in direct competition.

On a side note, Roger Goodell may be the worse commissioner and leader I have ever seen. Was he given this job to destroy the NFL ? Because between the HORRIBLE rule changes, the constant controversy and horrible handling of the controversies, and the lack of fore sight to see what some of the bargained deals, like reduction of practice time, has done to this game, he is doing an FANTASTIC job of running this league into the ground. He literally is writing the book on how to kill a golden goose.

Time they are a changing.

The CFL has a two-week training camp, a few exhibition games and then launches an 18 game season.

I think a lot of this "official' lack of practice time and its importance is exaggerated.

The playbook, the responsibilities on both sides of the ball are as complex in 3 down 12 man football.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

The CFL has a two-week training camp, a few exhibition games and then launches an 18 game season.

I think a lot of this "official' lack of practice time and its importance is exaggerated.

The playbook, the responsibilities on both sides of the ball are as complex in 3 down 12 man football.

Well, the rubber meets the road when they play the games, and who wins and who loses.

If it didn't matter than a well schemed offense should slaughter the easier college defense, and visa versa, right ?

 

[GuernseyCard]

Well, the rubber meets the road when they play the games, and who wins and who loses.

If it didn't matter than a well schemed offense should slaughter the easier college defense, and visa versa, right ?

They have equal time to prepare and thus it comes down to execution.

 

[Southpaw]

I love the college game. 95%( my guess )of college players will never sniff an NFL roster. Why gear the college game for the 5 % who might? NFL refuses to have a professional minor league system so they have reaped what they sowed.

Watching NFL offenses it is easy to conclude that the NFL borrows the college nuances for their offensive schemes. Nothing wrong with that.

BTW, the NFL borrows from the CFL. CFL is a 1st down league. With only 3 downs they better be successful on 1st. Maybe that is what the NFL needs to emphasize. 1st down success.

 

[cardpa]

I love the college game. 95%( my guess )of college players will never sniff an NFL roster. Why gear the college game for the 5 % who might? NFL refuses to have a professional minor league system so they have reaped what they sowed.

Watching NFL offenses it is easy to conclude that the NFL borrows the college nuances for their offensive schemes. Nothing wrong with that.

BTW, the NFL borrows from the CFL. CFL is a 1st down league. With only 3 downs they better be successful on 1st. Maybe that is what the NFL needs to emphasize. 1st down success.

First down plays are pretty ordinary in the NFL. When was the first time you saw a team run a half back pass or a double reverse on first down? They are too afraid of being in second and long so they run fairly conservative plays on first down.

 

[Finito]

Offensive lineman used to be the safest picks at the top of the draft now it's just a crap shoot. Chance Warmack was the best guard I've ever seen and he's struggled badly. Cooper was the highest rated guard to come out in like 20 years and he's been horrible.

Greg Robinson was the 2nd pick in the draft and flamed out badly.

Lane Johnson, Luke Joekl, Eric Fischer have all not been good as advertised. While Johnson is a good RIGHT tackle you don't spend the 4th pick in the draft on a right tackle.

Cam Erving was the best center prospect to come along in awhile and he's been horrible.

So yes you can point to guys here and there that have had success but it's becoming clear that guys at the top of the draft are just not the same. Very odd but now running backs have gone from the verge of extinction to these evolved to these freak Swiss army knife players Bell, Johnson, Mcaffrey, Barkley

Now we will see what's the next step in lineman evolution

 

[ajcardfan]

Rugby,

I have also thought the growing difference in styles between College and the NFL is actually the biggest problem affecting quality of play in the NFL. And, it was college that moved away from the NFL, as schools like Texas Tech, Oregon and Baylor, etc, etc, started trying to figure out how the use the actual athletes they have to beat traditional powerhouses like Texas, Michigan, USC, etc. Spread them out, use your speed.

This might be an unpopular opinion, but I don't think it's going to come back. Eventually, someone is going to win in the NFL with their QB never taking a snap during the season. And the traditional pro offense will steadily decline.

 

[cardpa]

I don't think speed is as much of an advantage in the NFL as it is in college. It may very well be an edge but not a dominant factor as there is seed from to[ to bottom in the NFL and more of it than college. Chip Kelly failed in his attempt to run his offense in the NFL because the speed factor in it was not the big difference it was in college. The fastest to the slowest guy in the NFL is a lot closer than on your average college team.

 

[Southpaw]

Rugby,

I have also thought the growing difference in styles between College and the NFL is actually the biggest problem affecting quality of play in the NFL. And, it was college that moved away from the NFL, as schools like Texas Tech, Oregon and Baylor, etc, etc, started trying to figure out how the use the actual athletes they have to beat traditional powerhouses like Texas, Michigan, USC, etc. Spread them out, use your speed.

This might be an unpopular opinion, but I don't think it's going to come back. Eventually, someone is going to win in the NFL with their QB never taking a snap during the season. And the traditional pro offense will steadily decline.

I am sure somebody counts the number of shotgun snaps and under center snaps made by every NFL QB. I will suggest that the majority of snaps are shotgun type. i.e. Brady, Rodgers, Brees

 

[JeffGollin]

True or no - the common criticism of the NFL vis a vis the college game is that the NFL is too much of a follow the leader league . All the cool stuff (like the zone-read and jet-sweep) has its origins in the college game before they eventually surface as part of the NFL playbook.

I agree.

This makes it tough to project how a multi-tooled QB will project in the pros, because you can never be sure what system he'll be asked to play in 4 or 5 years down the road.

 

[ajcardfan]

True or no - the common criticism of the NFL vis a vis the college game is that the NFL is too much of a follow the leader league . All the cool stuff (like the zone-read and jet-sweep) has its origins in the college game before they eventually surface as part of the NFL playbook.

I agree.

This makes it tough to project how a multi-tooled QB will project in the pros, because you can never be sure what system he'll be asked to play in 4 or 5 years down the road.

Basically that is what I was trying to say Jeff. The NFL has to follow college because that is where their work force comes from. The last decade, the NFL hasn't been able to make the current college philosophy work at the NFL. But, overall, it is inevitable. Brady, Big Ben, etc, these classic NFL QBs, are slowly going extinct.