Comeback - not BLOCK talk!

[Cheesebeef]

Okay - since I have been party to taking focus WAYYYYY off the greatness of last night's game - I figured I'd start a thread about the fight in this squad.

Even down 16 - I wasn't freaking out. It seemed like we had a case of the Sonics game all over again - coming out a little tight, the other team buoyed by the crowd and on fire, yet we just started chip, chip, chipping away at that lead.

Every time this team gets down - no matter when it is - it just doesn't seem like they believe they are going to lose - at least if it's in regulation or not against the Spurs that is.

Just wanted to give a big props to the boys - we battled back and forth with one of the premiere and veteran teams in the west on a VERY difficult court to play on and came away victors. Phenomenal win - truly the guttiest Suns team I have ever seen. No deficit is too big, no game is too small to put on a show - absolutely awesome.

(now this thread will be four posts long with 3 - but I felt bad about derailing other threads.)

 

[JPlay]

I think we threw up more airballs last night than we have all year. Marion, Q, JJax all throwing up air

 

[clif]

Okay - since I have been party to taking focus WAYYYYY off the greatness of last night's game - I figured I'd start a thread about the fight in this squad.

Even down 16 - I wasn't freaking out. It seemed like we had a case of the Sonics game all over again - coming out a little tight, the other team buoyed by the crowd and on fire, yet we just started chip, chip, chipping away at that lead.

Every time this team gets down - no matter when it is - it just doesn't seem like they believe they are going to lose - at least if it's in regulation or not against the Spurs that is.

Just wanted to give a big props to the boys - we battled back and forth with one of the premiere and veteran teams in the west on a VERY difficult court to play on and came away victors. Phenomenal win - truly the guttiest Suns team I have ever seen. No deficit is too big, no game is too small to put on a show - absolutely awesome.

(now this thread will be four posts long with 3 - but I felt bad about derailing other threads.)

I was not worried because I knew one of 2 things. The Kings were hitting everything they threw near the rim at one point. Either they were going to start missing and the suns would get back into the game by going on their patented runs, or they were going to get blown out by a team that was just on fire.

 

[Chaz]

The Kings played great and the Suns struggled.

What a gutty win for the Suns.

The Kings shot 60% from 3. (12-20)

That is just ridiculous.


One thing about this Suns team, they don't give up easy.



Oh yea, and Cheesebeef.....

 

[Cheesebeef]

Oh - and JJ was the FREAKING man last night.

If someone offers him the MAX - I'm starting to believe we have to match it and figure out who's more important in the long run - Marion - or Q - because we ain't gonna be able to have 4 MAX contracts and someone is gonna have to go.

 

[arthurracoon]

Oh - and JJ was the FREAKING man last night.

If someone offers him the MAX - I'm starting to believe we have to match it and figure out who's more important in the long run - Marion - or Q - because we ain't gonna be able to have 4 MAX contracts and someone is gonna have to go.

Q doesnt have a max contract.

Marion is the only max player.
Amare will get the max.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Q doesnt have a max contract.

Marion is the only max player.
Amare will get the max.

Nash is basically a MAX guy - I meant JJ, Marion, Amare and Nash - too many double digit contracts - depending on what the salary cap is gonna be.

 

[Chaz]

Oh - and JJ was the FREAKING man last night.

If someone offers him the MAX - I'm starting to believe we have to match it and figure out who's more important in the long run - Marion - or Q - because we ain't gonna be able to have 4 MAX contracts and someone is gonna have to go.

That dunk down the lane at the end of the second was just sick.


I wish he and Amare would work on the two man game a little more.

 

[George O'Brien]

If someone offers him the MAX - I'm starting to believe we have to match it and figure out who's more important in the long run - Marion - or Q - because we ain't gonna be able to have 4 MAX contracts and someone is gonna have to go.

What do you think a "Max" contract is? Kobe gets something like $136 million. Kenyon Martin gets $90 million. Those are clearly "Max contracts.

Marion gets $79 million.
Nash gets $66 million
Richardson gets $43.5 million

What is the cutoff for a Max contract?

 

[cly2tw]

The crucial point is how we rest Nash and don't panic by playing him all the time even if we are 15pt behind.

I couldn't see game. So, against the Kings, with Nash on the bench, we'd have a major postup advantage with JJ/JJ/Q vs. Mobley/Bibby. Did we exploit it well enough?

Vs. the Grizzs, we had similar advantage of Q or JJ vs. Burk/Williams. Yet, we rushed Nash back for the whole 4th q and lost on his tired legs.

Similar thing happened in the overtime losses vs. Spurs and Cavs.

But with only 38 min, Nash seemed to be better rested than these previous losses!

 

[George O'Brien]

The crucial point is how we rest Nash and don't panic by playing him all the time even if we are 15pt behind.

I couldn't see game. So, against the Kings, with Nash on the bench, we'd have a major postup advantage with JJ/JJ/Q vs. Mobley/Bibby. Did we exploit it well enough?

Vs. the Grizzs, we had similar advantage of Q or JJ vs. Burk/Williams. Yet, we rushed Nash back for the whole 4th q and lost on his tired legs.

Similar thing happened in the overtime losses vs. Spurs and Cavs.

But with only 38 min, Nash seemed to be better rested than these previous losses!

I really think the Suns need to develop an alternative offensive approach for when Nash isn't in the lineup. For example, with JJ and Q in the backcourt, the Suns should be posting up smaller guards a lot more. I'd like to see more cutters and work plays off JJ's drives. I'd like to see "give and go" plays with Barbosa since he is too fast for most defenders when he streaks to the basket.

 

[Cheesebeef]

What do you think a "Max" contract is? Kobe gets something like $136 million. Kenyon Martin gets $90 million. Those are clearly "Max contracts.

Marion gets $79 million.
Nash gets $66 million
Richardson gets $43.5 million

What is the cutoff for a Max contract?

I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT Q - but Marion got close to the Max I assume he's making at least 12, right? - Nash gets 66 - over 6 years or is it 5 - but that's at least 11 per - Amare will GET ABSOLUTE MAX and if JJ gets offered it - A BIG IF - and contingent on everything else I talekd about - that will be FOUR guys - making at least 11 mill - no team can sustain on their cap. That's all I'm saying - likely it'll be Q who goes - but if we match a MAX deal for JJ, I can't see our starting line-up remaining intact - but I AM starting to believe JJ is worth that - slowly starting to anyway.

 

[cly2tw]

Against the likes of Bibby, Mobley, Peja, JJ should have a field day anyway. It's his failure against the likes of Manu that will prevent him from getting a contract bigger than Manu's which is far from max. However, position ourselves so as to signal "we'll match any offer" should deter everybody from offering him any contract, as successfully used by J. West in the offseason. I'm not worried.

 

[goldseraph]

This is another reason I was against signing Q, even though it was a fairly good bargain. I think that JJ is the more talented player by far, and has a much higher potential. And we already had plenty of guys to hoist 3's. I suppose we have all these pieces together and really need to make a run THIS year, because this team is not going to stay together. Obviously we are going to max out Amare, and Nash isn't going anywhere. If we traded Marion in favor of Q I would be seriously ticked. Ditto if we just let JJ go. Luckily I think Q could be dealt, his salary is reasonable and on a team that really NEEDS a scorer / 3 hoister, we might be able to trade him for an expiring contract and picks after this year.

 

[George O'Brien]

I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT Q - but Marion got close to the Max I assume he's making at least 12, right? - Nash gets 66 - over 6 years or is it 5 - but that's at least 11 per - Amare will GET ABSOLUTE MAX and if JJ gets offered it - A BIG IF - and contingent on everything else I talekd about - that will be FOUR guys - making at least 11 mill - no team can sustain on their cap. That's all I'm saying - likely it'll be Q who goes - but if we match a MAX deal for JJ, I can't see our starting line-up remaining intact - but I AM starting to believe JJ is worth that - slowly starting to anyway.

Here are some comparables for wing men (second tier guys) over the last few years.

Ginoblili gets $52 million. He started at $6.6 million on a contract that runs six years.

Richard Hamilton $62 over seven years

Steven Jackson $38 over six years.

Corrie Maggette $45 over six years

Bonzi Wells $28.5 over four years

Richard Jefferson $76 over six years (Olympic Team)

Jamal Crawford $55.4 over seven years

Richard Lewis $65 over seven years (All Star)

Maggette was a match by the Clippers and Crawford was a sign and trade. None of the others were straight free agent signings. The others were team signings.

My guess is that JJ will get around $50 to $55 million over six. If he keeps playing like he did last night, he could be closer to $55. I don't see anyone offering him Richard Jefferson type money.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Rashard lewis got his deal like 2 years before he became an allstar. IIRC, his contract is incentive laden as well.


Also, Gilbert Arenas got a 6 year, 64 million deal after only his second season in the league.


Secondly, Manu is 27 years old. JJ is what, 23? Four years is a lot for a swingman. It is safe to say that Manu is near his peak when you look at his age and professional history. JJ still has a lot more developement in him.

 

[George O'Brien]

Rashard lewis got his deal like 2 years before he became an allstar. IIRC, his contract is incentive laden as well.

Also, Gilbert Arenas got a 6 year, 64 million deal after only his second season in the league.

I explicitly left out point guards and bigs. Point guards are very hot (Derek Fisher got $34 million for cris sakes and he's not even starting) and bigs are routinely overpaid compared to their productivity.

As for Lewis, he was big time scorer even then and his deal is for seven years. That is an average of $9.28 million per year while six for $55 is $9.16 million.

 

[Chaz]

 

[George O'Brien]

Cheese started the thread and he was the one who got started on JJ's contract. It's sort of like someone interrupting himself.

Back to the topic, I think the comeback was a big deal - more on how than anything else. Typically the Suns kill teams with three's, but the Suns had only 7. So while the Suns as usual had a lot of fast break points, the really interesting stat is that they had 62 points in the pain to only 40 by the Kings.

It is hard to win from the outside in the playoffs, so this is a very encouraging sign.

 

[Joe Mama]

Most of us have talked about Steve Nash's contribution in Tuesday's game, but I think it's impossible to overstate how important he was. It was the perfect example of how/why he is the perfect point guard... at least offensively... for this team. Jason Kidd has been called the best point guard in the NBA for some time. He may be better on defense and on the boards. However offensive way there's just no comparison. Nash's ability to distribute the ball and score if he needs to is unmatched in the NBA today.

I knew Steve Nash would be a great point guard for this team. I just didn't realize how good he could make them.

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

I was skeptical as to whether Nash would be worth the money, but I was wrong. Obviously four years from now I may be saying "what were they thinking", but I had not realized just how big a deal having a distributor PG who can shoot would be to the Suns.

One thing about Nash is that while he is perfect for the Suns, the Suns are also perfect for him. The Mavs were a good fit but the Suns are perfect fit -and getting better.

In contrast, Nash would die in Houston. His skills would be minimized while his defensive weaknesses exaggerated.

 

[cly2tw]

Secondly, Manu is 27 years old. JJ is what, 23? Four years is a lot for a swingman. It is safe to say that Manu is near his peak when you look at his age and professional history. JJ still has a lot more developement in him.

This is exactly why it's riskier to give JJ a better contract than Manu's. Manu has repeatedly proven he can lead a team in the highest pressure situation, as a 2nd or 1st option. JJ's problem is his softness and fairweather player reputation. He is best suited in a situation like the Suns where he serves as one of THREE 3rd options after Amare and Nash. It's no pressure situation. He is not tested as an acceptible 2nd option yet. Under constant pressure, he might falt on another team. I really don't see any team for which JJ's value can be as high as with the Suns. So, if the Suns don't match the contract, you will know right away you overpaid big time. It's called the winner's curse.