DE depth officially a problem again.

kerouac9

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Cards announced RFA tenders, and apparently Kenny Iwebema didn't even receive a same-round tender. That leaves us with two DEs on the roster is we don't resign Alan Branch.

Whis's drafts have been disastrous at building depth on this football club, and a player like Cameron Jordan is officially in play at #5 overall. :bang:
 

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You do realize that even though we didn't offer a tender to guys we can still re-sign them right? Their production didn't warrant the money the tenders are set at.
 

ARodg

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He better ****ing not be. If Cam Jordan is the target trade back.
 
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kerouac9

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You do realize that even though we didn't offer a tender to guys we can still re-sign them right? Their production didn't warrant the money the tenders are set at.

Do you even know what the tender values are in 2011? Because I don't, but historically the original-round tender is slightly more than the minimum salary. How often have you seen teams bring back their untendered free agents? I can't remember the last time the Cards did that. Meanwhile this team has a ton of money and there isn't a whole lot out there to spend it on.

If we lose Branch, as I said, we have no depth behind him.
 

DoTheDew

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You don't spend a first round pick on a guy who's going to be a rotational backup for years (unless you're suggesting we let CC walk when his contract is up). DE depth can be addressed in the 3rd or later.
 

Crazy Canuck

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Do you even know what the tender values are in 2011? Because I don't, but historically the original-round tender is slightly more than the minimum salary. How often have you seen teams bring back their untendered free agents? I can't remember the last time the Cards did that. Meanwhile this team has a ton of money and there isn't a whole lot out there to spend it on.

If we lose Branch, as I said, we have no depth behind him.

Obviously is not about $$$. They're prepared to see him leave. With 400, or so, Free Agents available after the new CBA, I'm not going to lose much sleep over possibly losing the backup to the backup D-end.
 
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kerouac9

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Obviously is not about $$$. They're prepared to see him leave. With 400, or so, Free Agents available after the new CBA, I'm not going to lose much sleep over possibly losing the backup to the backup D-end.

But if Alan Branch leaves in free agency, then there is no backup defensive end. I'll admit that I've liked what I've seen of Iwebema and was excited to see what he'd do in a larger role.

I think that the thinking is that with so many 3-4 DEs and DTs in this draft, the market for Branch if free agency follows the draft will be depressed. Should that be the case, the Cards could be able to retain his services at a reasonable rate. I don't know if that's going to happen, though, or if Branch would be willing to come back under any circumstances.

The question is whether the Cards are prepared for Branch to leave the way they were prepared for Antrel Rolle to leave, or Karlos Dansby?

Dew, I'd be expecting the Cards to use the #5 pick on Cameron Jordan or Dareus with the expectation that they'll let Calais Campbell leave in free agency in 2012, not as a long-term backup.
 

Buckybird

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Dew, I'd be expecting the Cards to use the #5 pick on Cameron Jordan or Dareus with the expectation that they'll let Calais Campbell leave in free agency in 2012, not as a long-term backup.

This K9 this is why the Cards will never be a great team for more than a few seasons. They tend to let most of their very good players go in FA & try to plug holes with less talented/expensive guys or plug with a draft pick...then that guy isnt as good of a player. It's like plugging 10 holes in the leaking dyke with 2 fingers & expecting it to stop. This team doesn't draft well enough to do this!!!

Until ownership decides to play big boy NFL ball instead of skimping on $$$ & it's core players...we're still the same ole Cardinals.
 
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kerouac9

kerouac9

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This K9 this is why the Cards will never be a great team for more than a few seasons. They tend to let most of their very good players go in FA & try to plug holes with less talented/expensive guys or plug with a draft pick...then that guy isnt as good of a player. It's like plugging 10 holes in the leaking dyke with 2 fingers & expecting it to stop. This team doesn't draft well enough to do this!!!

Until ownership decides to play big boy NFL ball instead of skimping on $$$ & it's core players...we're still the same ole Cardinals.

I think it's both, though. The Cards are going to be spending a ton of money in free agency whenever it comes because it doesn't even feel like keeping its depth players. Neither Keilen Dykes nor Kenny Iwebema were tendered offers. 28 players will be without contracts whenever the new league year starts, and the Cards tendered offers to seven of them, four of whom (Lutui, Sendlein, Branch, and Breaston) who are likely to be unrestricted free agents once a new CBA is settled. That's more than half your 53-man roster.
 

Stout

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Get ready for the defensive overhaul, folks. Iwebema probably isn't the kind of 3-4 DE Horton wants. I don't remember him as being a world-beater, and his production as a backup is easily replaced by another warm body.
 

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Taking a backup 34 DE at #5 would be stupid. This is the most stacked DL class in years and there will be good prospects left over in the top of the 2nd.
 

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Steelers have two of the best two gapping lineman in the whole league. They cant stop the run due to that. Due to that they can get that level of play from OLB's.

When Horton sees how awful Dockett is at two gapping and Calais is also very inconsistent, Cameron Jordan or Dareus is easely the pick. Much more need for that type of defense than OLB.
 

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It is a really sad but we are actually closer in creating a good Tampa-2 base defense than two gapping 3-4 Steeelers defense. We are really far away from something like that.

We have some undersized linebackers and our D-Line is hundred times better in one gap control and penetration style of football than the read and react two gapping style that Horton knows well from Steelers.

Calais is the closest you get on that D-Line but now even he is not even close to being able to shut down the run in two dimensions. He gets owned sometimes and sometimes he two gaps really well.

The skills for this defense is much closer to a 4-3, by far.

If i was the HC i would have hired a tampa 2 DC based on the skills of this defense. You have a good penetrating D-Line and asking them to two gap hinders their game. You have an undersized linebacker that would excel in Tampa-2. You add a freak passrusher on the edge and one more coverage LB and a press CB and you have a philosophy that most are comfortable with.

Our secondary is bad at zone, sure. But we would need zone in either way.
 

Cbus cardsfan

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I don't think it's so much Cameron Jordan at 5, which would be very Levi Brown-esque, but the other Cameron, Heyward at 38.
 

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I haven't seen him yet, i will before the draft.

Horton will only call good plays if he gets that play from the D-Line. It changes the whole defense behind on second and third level.

Dockett just doesn't fit this defense at all. Calais is also suited best as strong side end in 4-3, he would be fantastic there
 

Cbus cardsfan

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I've been bemoaning the lack of depth on the DL for awhile. It's a major concern. Even if Branch is brought back, that's still only 4 guys on the DL in Branch, CC, DD, and Williams. They'll still have to draft, at least one, probably two, or sign a few depth guys in FA. Maybe Kendrick Clancy is available again :sad:.
 

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Depth is very important, the 4th lineman is almost like a starter in 3-4.

But our starters are even more of a problem. You look at Docket and he would never fit into a Steelers defense as starter. He is a fantastic player on some schemes, but not this one.

Horton will need to run another defense with Docket up front. Let's see how he deals with that.
 

Cbus cardsfan

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Depth is very important, the 4th lineman is almost like a starter in 3-4.

But our starters are even more of a problem. You look at Docket and he would never fit into a Steelers defense as starter. He is a fantastic player on some schemes, but not this one.

Horton will need to run another defense with Docket up front. Let's see how he deals with that.
Dockett is a good example of a good player can play in any scheme. No way he was drafted to be a 3-4 DE but he has still adapted and played well. He would be an absolute beast if he played the position he was drafted to play, 4-3 under tackle. Heck, he's still a beast but his production is limited by the poistion he's playing.
 

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Dockett is a good example of a good player can play in any scheme. No way he was drafted to be a 3-4 DE but he has still adapted and played well. He would be an absolute beast if he played the position he was drafted to play, 4-3 under tackle. Heck, he's still a beast but his production is limited by the poistion he's playing.

He is a beast in penetration and absolutely horrible two gapper. He has not adapted to anything and not played well when asked to two gap. He just can't do that at all, i watched the D-line every single play every year,multiple times, he just can't shed and laterally dominate in the run game.

All he does is (and all he can do) is making that great initial speed step into a gap shaded onto a lineman.

Every time he was taken straight on in a 0, 2 or 4 technique and aksed to powerstep instead of making the speed step, he was horrible, not even average, the tapes don't lie, he just can't do that. He is also horrible in reading plays and reading plays is exactly what you need when you are in 2 or 4. reading plays is exactly what is the strength of the Steelers D-line.

he is a disruptive beast and you assign him to one gap,3 tech, because that is what he does well, and that is the only thing he does. He would be fantastic in Tampa -2 scheme, would have more sacks clearly.

Horton only knows a defense where all three lineman can stop the run in two dimensions. Our defense has lineman that can stop the run in one gap. It's a huge difference and completely different style of football. It's much more important than 3-4 or 4-3. Much bigger difference is whether you play one gap or two gap, that is defining a philosophy much more. It's about assignments.
 

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If Bowers were to fall to us at 5, I would seriously consider taking him and moving to a 4-3. A d-line of Campbell-Willams-Dockett-Bowers would be a force.
 

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Iwebema is a solid depth DE and a force on ST's. Anyone else notice that our ST's didn't perform as well after Kenny was IRed?

Having said that he is easily replaced in a draft filled with DL talent. We have a pretty good idea of Kenny's ceiling so why not see how the draft unfolds and if a BPA at DE falls to us.
 
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kerouac9

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Iwebema is a solid depth DE and a force on ST's. Anyone else notice that our ST's didn't perform as well after Kenny was IRed?

Having said that he is easily replaced in a draft filled with DL talent. We have a pretty good idea of Kenny's ceiling so why not see how the draft unfolds and if a BPA at DE falls to us.

Couldn't we do that anyway if Iwebema was tendered? I'm not up in arms because Iwebema is leaving--as many said, he's a very replaceable player. At the same time, there's virtually no cost to securing his services through the 2011 season. Why not keep him for now and cut him if it comes down to that? Now there is no safety net except hoping that some other team's garbage is better than him.
 

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