Decertification

[JCSunsfan]

Listening to Stern on the radio. He said that if the players decertify the union, EVERY contract becomes null because every NBA contract has verbiage written into it that requires the union to be viable for the contract to be valid.

If they decertify, everything is over. The owners will be free of every contract and will begin signing whoever will play for them at whatever price they can get. It would be an absolutle free for all.

There is no way the players can win this.

 

[Mainstreet]

Listening to Stern on the radio. He said that if the players decertify the union, EVERY contract becomes null because every NBA contract has verbiage written into it that requires the union to be viable for the contract to be valid.

If they decertify, everything is over. The owners will be free of every contract and will begin signing whoever will play for them at whatever price they can get. It would be an absolutle free for all.

There is no way the players can win this.

Also the NBA as we know it would be gone as well. It would be the nuclear option. The owners would stand to lose much of their franchise value. There needs to be rules among both players and owners to run a league such as the NBA. A small number of teams would do very well and the rest would be unable to compete. The owners need the players as much as the players need the owners.

There would be the Harlem Globetrotters and the Washington Generals.

 

[Griffin]

If they decertify, everything is over. The owners will be free of every contract and will begin signing whoever will play for them at whatever price they can get. It would be an absolutle free for all.

I don't think it would happen this way. Once the union decertifies, players would start filing antitrust lawsuits against the NBA, though it's very doubtful they could win. This could take months, if not years, to sort out.

Meanwhile, teams would not be able to just go out and sign whatever players they want to whatever salary, because those teams are still part of the NBA and must abide by NBA rules. The NBA could adapt its own set of bylaws agreed to by the owners and start signing (or hold a draft with) any players who want to play, but most of current NBA players would not take that route as it defeats the purpose of decertification.

There is no way the players can win this.

Yes, and that has been true from the beginning. The NBA wants a different system and they will get it, one way or another. The players should be content that at least they'll get to keep a soft cap, which to me seems like a major victory for them. Owners could have stuck to their hard cap requirement and we would have been in the same place as we are right now.

 

[overseascardfan]

This is what the owner's wanted, some are willing to give up the season to get the deal they want. Owners are still going to make money: merchandise sales, not having to pay player salaries & I believe they still get the television deal money, someone let me know if I'm wrong on the last one.

Players were dumb to think they could come in and strong arm the owners, they are team owners for a reason. These men know how to make money and have all the leverage.

 

[elindholm]

So what was the fallout of the NFL players decertifying? Or was it the NHL? I don't have much of a sense of what it means from a practical standpoint.

 

[AzStevenCal]

So what was the fallout of the NFL players decertifying? Or was it the NHL? I don't have much of a sense of what it means from a practical standpoint.

It was the NFL and there was very little fallout. It isn't that decertifying is a slam dunk win for the players or anything but it does carry a risk for the league. It's a real long shot for the players but if it hits, it will pay off like a long shot.

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

If I recall correctly, the courts ultimately did not let the NFL players decertify. However, the risk for both the players and the owners is putting this matter in the court system where anything can happen.

 

[slinslin]

How are the players going to win this it is mind-boggling.

The NBA lost 300M$ and the proposal shifted 3 billion over 10 years from the players to the owners which would cover the 300M$ annual loss. Seems rather fair to take it from the players instead of the other employees and side businesses of NBA teams.

So now the NBA will void all players contracts which means that the result of decertification for the players has to be a new system which would pay them that much more than what they would have made under the proposal by the NBA and their old contracts.

 

[slinslin]

And how are they going to argue that the NBA did not negotiate in good faith when Stern presented them an offer that many owners did not even want on the table? Yet the union did not even show it to the players and refused any vote on it? Seems like they did not negotiate well to me.

 

[Mainstreet]

As I view it, the players and the union badly misjudged their ability to get a deal done with Stern and the owners. Now the decision not to go for decertification early on like the NFL players may cost them the loss of the entire season. I suspect Billy Hunter thought he could get negotiate a fair deal with David Stern when it came down to crunch time. Bad idea.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

As I view it, the players and the union badly misjudged their ability to get a deal done with Stern and the owners. Now the decision not to go for decertification early on like the NFL players may cost them the loss of the entire season. I suspect Billy Hunter thought he could get negotiate a fair deal with David Stern when it came down to crunch time. Bad idea.

A fair deal? This isn't a matter of fair, it's a matter of leverage. The PA has badly mangled any chance they had at an acceptable deal, and if the players believe the latest offer is bad, just wait until they see the next one. The players have zero leverage, and decertification is an absolute sham.

It seems quite obvious that if it went to vote, most players would have accepted the terms, because at an average of 3-4 years in the league, the rank and file cannot miss paychecks for a year. Everyone lost today, except for the lawyers.

 

[Griffin]

It seems quite obvious that if it went to vote, most players would have accepted the terms, because at an average of 3-4 years in the league, the rank and file cannot miss paychecks for a year. Everyone lost today, except for the lawyers.

Not only that, but most players in the league would never be affected by the system changes in the proposal, so they would have little reason to vote against it. For the vast majority of players in the NBA, this was a decent enough offer to take, but they did not get a vote. Only about 30 players got the decide this while claiming that they speak for everyone, and they rejected the offer seemingly based on pride and principle alone ("we will not accept an ultimatum!") as opposed to actual contents of the proposal.

I seriously doubt they will win any lawsuits against the NBA. The season will be lost, and next summer they'll end up taking the 47% flex cap deal.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Not only that, but most players in the league would never be affected by the system changes in the proposal, so they would have little reason to vote against it. For the vast majority of players in the NBA, this was a decent enough offer to take, but they did not get a vote. Only about 30 players got the decide this while claiming that they speak for everyone, and they rejected the offer seemingly based on pride and principle alone ("we will not accept an ultimatum!") as opposed to actual contents of the proposal.

I seriously doubt they will win any lawsuits against the NBA. The season will be lost, and next summer they'll end up taking the 47% flex cap deal.

As Hollinger says, "We're going to miss an entire season over mid-level deals for tax teams. Congratulations, you're all idiots."

Un-be-lievable. An entire season lost for nothing, over issues that relate to almost nobody. Way to rep your constituency!

 

[Mainstreet]

A fair deal? This isn't a matter of fair, it's a matter of leverage. The PA has badly mangled any chance they had at an acceptable deal, and if the players believe the latest offer is bad, just wait until they see the next one. The players have zero leverage, and decertification is an absolute sham.

It seems quite obvious that if it went to vote, most players would have accepted the terms, because at an average of 3-4 years in the league, the rank and file cannot miss paychecks for a year. Everyone lost today, except for the lawyers.

I would not call decertification a sham. This will be decided in court. Although the courts did not allow the NFL players to decertify this does not mean it can't be done with the NBA. Both the owners and the players lose big time in this scenario so there is leverage to get a deal done... however, perhaps after the ship sinks. This is why it is called the nuclear option. Both sides lose so we agree on this aspect.

 

[Griffin]

Lots of people wondering why there was no vote. From ESPN:

The last time the NBA and the players association met, the meeting ended early Friday morning with an offer from the league. The NBA then sent that offer in writing to every player, and quietly prayed that the union would let the players vote on it, expecting it would pass and the NBA season would begin.

It never happened, however. Instead of putting the decision to 450 players, the union put the decision to 30 player representatives who, the union says, were unanimous in rejecting the deal and taking new legal action.

As soon as that decision was announced, I asked union spokesman Dan Wasserman, who was standing in the back of the room next to attorney Jeffrey Kessler, why the union was turning to the group of 30 representatives.

The union has three player bodies it can consult: The executive committee, the 30 elected representatives and the full membership. Why that middle body?

I was asking what I thought was a fairly boring question. I would have been satisfied with a response about by-laws or somesuch. But Wasserman and Kessler blew up. I couldn't even finish the question before both were loud, gruff and dismissive.

The gist of the response was that you cannot give your adversary direct access to the membership. "That's not how any union in America, that I'm aware of, operates," said Kessler. If the NBA is just going to send offers straight to the players, why even have a union? The idea is that the union is savvier, and knows a good deal when it sees one. And only when the union is sure that the deal is in players' best interests will they present it to the workers.

Rockets guard Kevin Martin, by text on Monday morning, said he didn't care to be represented that way: "I think it's fair for every player to have a vote, because we're all grown men and its time for the players to control their career decisions, and not one player per team. If it comes down to a final decision, you got to be fair."

He added that other players he had talked to may or may not have voted for the deal the NBA had on the table, but "most feel like we're entitled to a vote!"

To hear David Stern tell it, skipping that vote was a key misstep. Speaking to ESPN's "SportsCenter" he said: "The union decided in its infinite wisdom that the proposal would not be presented to membership. Obviously, Mr. Kessler got his way and we are about to go into the nuclear winter of the NBA."

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/33289/union-makes-big-move-without-polling-members

 

[Mainstreet]

Next step by the union, declare a disclaimer of interest for representing the players as a bargaining unit. Now antitrust actions can be filed by players against the NBA and owners. Well, unless something drastic happens... see you in court where anything can happen.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/216528/Players_Union_Issues_Disclaimer_Of_Interest

 

[Mainstreet]

A good article from SI on the matter.

http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2011/11/14/season-in-serious-jeopardy-but-not-lost-yet/?hpt=hp_t2

 

[elindholm]

It was foolhardy in the extreme for Hunter, Fisher, and the rest of the player reps to underestimate Stern's capacity for busting a union. Stern has been a lawyer for 45 years, and he is an expert at working the system to his advantage. The guy is a ruthless, arrogant dictator, but he's also smart. It would be like me stepping into the ring with Mike Tyson thinking I could beat him on philosophical grounds.

 

[Mainstreet]

In a Paul Coro article dated 11-14-11 at azcentral, he describes a fine point that I did not fully understand. I guess there is a speedier route than decertification that might get quicker results if we were dealing with practical minds.

Rather than decertification, NBAPA Executive Director Billy Hunter said the players were issuing a disclaimer of interest to dissolve the union. This route is more informal, avoiding the 45-day decertification process with voting and NLRB approval.

Like the NFL move this summer, it is a move that allows the two sides to continue talking to settle the lawsuit, although it will be through lawyers, including Hunter. It also keeps it in New York courts, rather than an employee-friendlier state. Litigator David Boies, who represented the NFL owners this year and Al Gore's election challenge, was hired by the players to file the antitrust suit in the coming days.

Speaking of practical minds.

Suns players responded with tweets, although Fisher asked the players to refrain from comments:

Garret Siler: "Its crazy I finally got my foot in the door and this mess happens but what can u do but suck it up and get back to the grind"

Hakim Warrick: "Winter just got a Lil colder..."

Markieff Morris: "Is it really all about the money??" ... "Lol just give everybody a mil and let us play lol because most of us didn't have (expletive) before the league....."

http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/PaulCoro/148611

 

[AfroSuns]

From Kevin Martin

Rockets guard Kevin Martin, by text on Monday morning, said he didn't care to be represented that way: "I think it's fair for every player to have a vote, because we're all grown men and its time for the players to control their career decisions, and not one player per team. If it comes down to a final decision, you got to be fair."

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/33289/union-makes-big-move-without-polling-members

Looking like most of the player are ready to get this over with, you would think the desire and will of the majority will prevail instead of lining the pockets of the attorneys who advised them in the first place.

 

[SunsTzu]

It's funny that with the NFL labor situation I was really hoping the NFLPA would stick it to the owners since owning an NFL team is basically a license to print money. However this time around it's difficult not siding with the owners in light of all the information available. Part of me hopes this gets dragged out and the owners make the players regret not taking this deal.

It will be interesting to see how well the players stick together. Some are already voicing displeasure about not getting a vote, and as far as I know there is nothing stopping some particularly savvy players from organizing a new union if they have the support.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The guy is a ruthless, arrogant dictator, but he's also smart. It would be like me stepping into the ring with Mike Tyson thinking I could beat him on philosophical grounds.

lol.

 

[Matt L]

It is funny that you say that about Stern. I remember after the last work stoppage, the whole media was claiming that Stern destroyed the NBA union and Billy Hunter in their agreement. However, a little over 10 years after the 1999 strike, Stern and the owners are telling us that they cannot make money under the previous agreement.

 

[Griffin]

SI.com poll:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/20.../lockout.fan.survey/index.html#?sct=nba_t2_a8

 

[slinslin]

The players are a joke:

- the team respresentatives can not even show up on time for official meetings
- they could not even communicate the proposals to the players

and now this disclaimer of interest. It is clear to me that these spoiled NBA athletes have absolutely no idea what real life and work is like. They got offered a great deal with fully guaranteed contracts. To be honest it is joke they even got such a good deal. They get so many privileges they can sign a contract and have no risk even if they are lazy slobs that do not work at all the owners must still pay them.
The players do not take any risk, as soon as they sign a contract they can do whatever they want basically.