Deeeep thoughts,.......with Oaken1

oaken1

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warning!

Post contains opinions and products of personal experience which may be presented as facts. with that in mind, please keep your personal butthurt to yourself.

opinions, opinions, opinions.....


anyway. Good morning Cardinal fans. Lots has changed with our beloved team in the past days and more changes are approaching. It's an exciting time to be a Cardinal fan! Yeehaw and Yippee-ki-yay!

Growing pains. we will feel them. It is going to take time for this new staff to develop the offense and get it ready for the NFL stage. Then, horror of horrors, other teams will get tape on us and start stopping what we do well. Thats when the skills of our offensive and defensive staff will be tested. Bounce back, adjust, adapt and overcome. Can they do it? Although he has never coached at the pro level I have a glimmer of faith that coach K2 will be able to make the required adjustments when the time comes. But we as fans need to be prepared for what may be a few rocky games as the learning curve straightens out.

Whoever becomes our OC will be working his tail off right out of the gate. Unlike many coaching hires K2 does not have an offense to install. It has to be built.***brick by brick*** (ouch)

Defensively I have faith that Vance Joseph can put together a top ten unit. with most of his history being geared towards the DB's,... the help of Billy Davis will be crucial in seeing that our linebacker investments pay dividends on sundays. I expect we will see a few additions to the defense via both free agency and the draft.
some of you have been around pro football for decades...others for merely years. One thing that has not really changed over the decades is player development timelines. Players whose position requires strength will generally take longer to develop. This is not just a skills development thing but a physiological thing. All things being equal, a 25 year old man is simply stronger than a 22 year old man. Men just develop that way. This means that badass DT or OG in the draft is at an automatic disadvantage when he takes the field at 22. It is also why historically speaking most players take three years to develop into NFL players. It used to be that a rookie might have a fantastic rookie season, than have a "sophomore slump" then come back in year three and start playing like a pro. The strength issues, like I said, affect the guys in the trenches the most. But they also affect a WR, as he needs to be able to fight off jams at the line and dominate the DB in position and hand fighting as they run downfield.

This three year development times is why I would make the "crazy" move of trying to extend the contract of Robert Nkemdiche. I wasnt for the pick at the time. But the guy has shown development and increase in strength. His recent injury will likely keep his production down next season as well. But we can use the development time and the injury to secure him with a lower contract. we wont likely get him locked up for 2.5 a year, but we can do it cheaper than if the injury had not happened. also, the signing bonus would put more money in his pocket right now compared to his fifth year option. Keep in mind RN wasnt a high pick, he was barely a first round guy...30 was it? For that draft position his development has been on par especially considering BA redshirted him his entire rookie season. I know lots of you guys are down on him...and we made a move like this with honeybadger that bit us in the ass. But we wont have to pay this guy top market price like we did with badger and DT's just take more time to develop unless they are just a pure athletic freak.
The development time is a big reason why teams hesitate to take an DT with a top five pick....those picks are usually used for instant upgrades. Thats why speed rushers off the edge often go in the top five, because while those guys still need to get stronger their speed allows them to make an impact as a rookie.

Seniors will usually show less development time in the NFL simply because they are older. But generally speaking most guys come out early and only stay for their senior season if they need time to post some numbers to increase their draft stock. So while seniors will develop faster they are often less talented to begin with.

Considering that it makes our choice at #1 overall easier or harder pending what you want. Bosa, Williams, and Oliver all have a speed factor in their respective games. Williams looks to be freakishly strong for his age. But neither Williams nor Oliver really fit our 34... they can be used but I would prefer seeing a guy with 20-30 more pounds on him at DE. IMO we would need a huge NT in order to offset their slighter builds at DE especially if RN is on the other side. Bosa fits at OLB but is too light to move in to DE and rumor has it he doesnt cover really well. Although only 21 Bosa has technique beyond his years which will allow him to be a day one contributor. Both Oliver and Williams can contribute right away as well. IMO Oliver would be better due to his quickness off the ball. A good DE can beat an OT with that first step and have instant pocket pressure.
With age comes weight. For guys in the trenches extra weight isnt usually an issue so long as they are not just getting fat. On the other hand, for guys on the edge who rely on speed the extra weight can start to limit their game...or at least change their contribution as added weight often starts to reduce quickness.
Of these three guys if I were making a selection at 1, I would pick Ed Oliver. He has the first step to contribute right away and also has a compact body type that will allow him to put on muscle without significantly changing his center of gravity. He should contribute as a rookie and continue to get better over the next few years as he gets stronger at the point of attack.
That being my choice I would also try and extend Markus Golden to keep his pass rushing presence across from Chandler Jones. It often takes a guy over a year to fully recover from a knee and IMO thats why his numbers were down...again, we can use that to get him for a lower contract. He and Jones were a nice tandem when both were healthy getting both sacks and pressures.

If we trade down I would look at Greedy Williams to put across from PP21 or if we let Golden go I would look at Josh Allen from KY. He would be a monster pairing with chandler jones and unlike Bosa there is no questions about his coverage ability. Of course it all depends on how far back we trade.

This took more typing than I anticipated so I'm gonna just stop here.

remember...opinions, but screw it, flame away anyhow.
 

TheCardFan

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Good stuff.

Interesting take on Nkemdiche...you are definitely looking at this from a unique angle. There is no denying his talent...dude is special. However, there is no denying that he can't stay healthy. At what point do you move on (seems like now to me).

IF Nkemdiche was willing to sign a 2 year extension under market value (current value as DL not potential value)...it may be worth the gamble.
 
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oaken1

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Good stuff.

Interesting take on Nkemdiche...you are definitely looking at this from a unique angle. There is no denying his talent...dude is special. However, there is no denying that he can't stay healthy. At what point do you move on (seems like now to me).

IF Nkemdiche was willing to sign a 2 year extension under market value (current value as DL not potential value)...it may be worth the gamble.
that was what I was thinking in regards to nkemdiche and Golden both. 2-3 years to show they have advanced beyond their injuries.
 

BW52

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Bosa my top choice.IMHO Ed Oliver will be a troublemaker headcase.Too much DIVAtype behavior.As for Murray I sure hope some other teams fall for the midget QB not the Cards.IF Cards decide they want a QB I would rather see Haskins (and I don`t get impressed by him).
Qinnen Williams meh..talented but where does he fit in the 3-4?
Then again maybe the Cards pull a shocker and draft Greedy Williams Cb after a tradedown or a OLINEman.
 
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oaken1

oaken1

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I’m not a fan of having pass-rushers being in coverage, so Josh Allen being good in coverage is moot to me, tbh.
as an OLb it isnt always about pass rushing. sometimes they cover a RB out of the backfield to cover screens and wheels and such
 
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oaken1

oaken1

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Bosa my top choice.IMHO Ed Oliver will be a troublemaker headcase.Too much DIVAtype behavior.As for Murray I sure hope some other teams fall for the midget QB not the Cards.IF Cards decide they want a QB I would rather see Haskins (and I don`t get impressed by him).
Qinnen Williams meh..talented but where does he fit in the 3-4?
Then again maybe the Cards pull a shocker and draft Greedy Williams Cb after a tradedown or a OLINEman.
where is the documentation on Oliver being a head case troublemaker? I have only heard of a single altercation.
 

The Kraken

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I think Oliver is best suited as a 3 tech penetrator...And regarding his altercation, only one of the two people in question is still affiliated with the university
 

JeffGollin

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What my eyeballs told me.

- Cardinal receivers lost more than half their jump ball battles

- Rosen's number of "what was he thinking?" interceptions didn't improve from game to game.

- On one & one blocker/tackler matchups on either side of the ball, our guys were usually the ones moved backwards.

- Too often, our tacklers bounced off the ballcarrier instead of finishing the tackle.

- MLB play (range, quicks, strength, coverage) was solid but ordinary

- Playcalling was predictable (Opponents knew what we were going to run before our guys did).

- It wasn't so much that we made more mistakes than the other guys, it was more that the above deficiencies magnified the impact of those mistakes. (Example: Blown coverages in Seattle game).

I am more interested in how the new coaching staff addresses these problems than I am reputation, speeches or p.r.
 

DVontel

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as an OLb it isnt always about pass rushing. sometimes they cover a RB out of the backfield to cover screens and wheels and such
But how many times is he gonna do that? Chandler barely did that when he was a OLB in the 3-4. Bosa can most certainly play DE in a 3-4, especially as a 5T.
 

BirdDroppings

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We can trade down and still take Oliver if the mocks are to be believed. Most everything has him going in the 7-12 range now. No mock I've seen has him going top 2 and taking him #1 would be a reach IMO, but we will see if that changes at the combine.
 

Jetstream Green

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Bosa my top choice.IMHO Ed Oliver will be a troublemaker headcase.Too much DIVAtype behavior.As for Murray I sure hope some other teams fall for the midget QB not the Cards.IF Cards decide they want a QB I would rather see Haskins (and I don`t get impressed by him).
Qinnen Williams meh..talented but where does he fit in the 3-4?
Then again maybe the Cards pull a shocker and draft Greedy Williams Cb after a tradedown or a OLINEman.

I would draft Greedy Williams :)
 

GuernseyCard

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warning!

Post contains opinions and products of personal experience which may be presented as facts. with that in mind, please keep your personal butthurt to yourself.

opinions, opinions, opinions.....


anyway. Good morning Cardinal fans. Lots has changed with our beloved team in the past days and more changes are approaching. It's an exciting time to be a Cardinal fan! Yeehaw and Yippee-ki-yay!

Growing pains. we will feel them. It is going to take time for this new staff to develop the offense and get it ready for the NFL stage. Then, horror of horrors, other teams will get tape on us and start stopping what we do well. Thats when the skills of our offensive and defensive staff will be tested. Bounce back, adjust, adapt and overcome. Can they do it? Although he has never coached at the pro level I have a glimmer of faith that coach K2 will be able to make the required adjustments when the time comes. But we as fans need to be prepared for what may be a few rocky games as the learning curve straightens out.

Whoever becomes our OC will be working his tail off right out of the gate. Unlike many coaching hires K2 does not have an offense to install. It has to be built.***brick by brick*** (ouch)

Defensively I have faith that Vance Joseph can put together a top ten unit. with most of his history being geared towards the DB's,... the help of Billy Davis will be crucial in seeing that our linebacker investments pay dividends on sundays. I expect we will see a few additions to the defense via both free agency and the draft.
some of you have been around pro football for decades...others for merely years. One thing that has not really changed over the decades is player development timelines. Players whose position requires strength will generally take longer to develop. This is not just a skills development thing but a physiological thing. All things being equal, a 25 year old man is simply stronger than a 22 year old man. Men just develop that way. This means that badass DT or OG in the draft is at an automatic disadvantage when he takes the field at 22. It is also why historically speaking most players take three years to develop into NFL players. It used to be that a rookie might have a fantastic rookie season, than have a "sophomore slump" then come back in year three and start playing like a pro. The strength issues, like I said, affect the guys in the trenches the most. But they also affect a WR, as he needs to be able to fight off jams at the line and dominate the DB in position and hand fighting as they run downfield.

This three year development times is why I would make the "crazy" move of trying to extend the contract of Robert Nkemdiche. I wasnt for the pick at the time. But the guy has shown development and increase in strength. His recent injury will likely keep his production down next season as well. But we can use the development time and the injury to secure him with a lower contract. we wont likely get him locked up for 2.5 a year, but we can do it cheaper than if the injury had not happened. also, the signing bonus would put more money in his pocket right now compared to his fifth year option. Keep in mind RN wasnt a high pick, he was barely a first round guy...30 was it? For that draft position his development has been on par especially considering BA redshirted him his entire rookie season. I know lots of you guys are down on him...and we made a move like this with honeybadger that bit us in the ass. But we wont have to pay this guy top market price like we did with badger and DT's just take more time to develop unless they are just a pure athletic freak.
The development time is a big reason why teams hesitate to take an DT with a top five pick....those picks are usually used for instant upgrades. Thats why speed rushers off the edge often go in the top five, because while those guys still need to get stronger their speed allows them to make an impact as a rookie.

Seniors will usually show less development time in the NFL simply because they are older. But generally speaking most guys come out early and only stay for their senior season if they need time to post some numbers to increase their draft stock. So while seniors will develop faster they are often less talented to begin with.

Considering that it makes our choice at #1 overall easier or harder pending what you want. Bosa, Williams, and Oliver all have a speed factor in their respective games. Williams looks to be freakishly strong for his age. But neither Williams nor Oliver really fit our 34... they can be used but I would prefer seeing a guy with 20-30 more pounds on him at DE. IMO we would need a huge NT in order to offset their slighter builds at DE especially if RN is on the other side. Bosa fits at OLB but is too light to move in to DE and rumor has it he doesnt cover really well. Although only 21 Bosa has technique beyond his years which will allow him to be a day one contributor. Both Oliver and Williams can contribute right away as well. IMO Oliver would be better due to his quickness off the ball. A good DE can beat an OT with that first step and have instant pocket pressure.
With age comes weight. For guys in the trenches extra weight isnt usually an issue so long as they are not just getting fat. On the other hand, for guys on the edge who rely on speed the extra weight can start to limit their game...or at least change their contribution as added weight often starts to reduce quickness.
Of these three guys if I were making a selection at 1, I would pick Ed Oliver. He has the first step to contribute right away and also has a compact body type that will allow him to put on muscle without significantly changing his center of gravity. He should contribute as a rookie and continue to get better over the next few years as he gets stronger at the point of attack.
That being my choice I would also try and extend Markus Golden to keep his pass rushing presence across from Chandler Jones. It often takes a guy over a year to fully recover from a knee and IMO thats why his numbers were down...again, we can use that to get him for a lower contract. He and Jones were a nice tandem when both were healthy getting both sacks and pressures.

If we trade down I would look at Greedy Williams to put across from PP21 or if we let Golden go I would look at Josh Allen from KY. He would be a monster pairing with chandler jones and unlike Bosa there is no questions about his coverage ability. Of course it all depends on how far back we trade.

This took more typing than I anticipated so I'm gonna just stop here.

remember...opinions, but screw it, flame away anyhow.

If we let Golden escape in Free Agency, I doubt we trade down; BOSA would be the pick.
 

GuernseyCard

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Good stuff.

Interesting take on Nkemdiche...you are definitely looking at this from a unique angle. There is no denying his talent...dude is special. However, there is no denying that he can't stay healthy. At what point do you move on (seems like now to me).

IF Nkemdiche was willing to sign a 2 year extension under market value (current value as DL not potential value)...it may be worth the gamble.

Nkemdiche is under contract for 2019. They don't have to make the call, yet.
 

LarryStalling

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I am usually inclined to take defense with the first five or six picks as these are usually freakish specimens. Rarely is an offensive player ready to step in and make such an impact. We have been complaining vociferously about needing a second corner to play opposite PP. It might also be beneficial to groom someone to replace PP. So I could easily be convinced to take Greedy Williams if he test out.
 

BW52

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where is the documentation on Oliver being a head case troublemaker? I have only heard of a single altercation.

Getting into a shouting/shoving match with a coach does not show well with me.He knew the rules and chose to ignore them.That raises a red flag to me.Whats he going to act like when he gets big money to go along with the ego? I say a big effing no thanks to ED Oliver.
 
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