Dennis Green

john h

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I realize Dennis Green has had a lot of success and experience as a Head Coach in the NFL. No one on this board could began to hold a candle to his knowledge about pro football. Collectively, however we bring a hundred or so of guys who have been watching NFL football as long or longer than Dennis. These guys have become football savy over the years and from what I have seen appear to recognize problems with players and the organization well before the coaches and management recognizes them. It is becoming overwhelmingly evident that the majority of the regular posters on this board thing Josh McCown has some real problems at QB and think it is time to start one of the other OB's. When you get this many football savy people seeing a problem I wonder what the coach is seeing that we do not? Individally we may be dopes compared to Dennis but collectively we have an awsome amount of savy our selves.
 

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john h said:
When you get this many football savy people seeing a problem I wonder what the coach is seeing that we do not? Individally we may be dopes compared to Dennis but collectively we have an awsome amount of savy our selves.
I agree and disagree at the same time. Even as a collective whole, we probably aren't qualified to call the shots. But, I do think in the case of McCown right now, Green is too close to the situation. "Josh is our starter" is one of the tenents of Green's tenure so far, and I think there is some pride involved with it at this point. I also beleive Josh must still be shoing him something, or he would have been benched--but the chemistry of this offense isn't working right now that starts with the QB.
 

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Pariah said:
I agree and disagree at the same time. Even as a collective whole, we probably aren't qualified to call the shots. But, I do think in the case of McCown right now, Green is too close to the situation. "Josh is our starter" is one of the tenents of Green's tenure so far, and I think there is some pride involved with it at this point. I also beleive Josh must still be shoing him something, or he would have been benched--but the chemistry of this offense isn't working right now that starts with the QB.

True, I also think Josh is the type of athlete who looks better in practice than someone like King, better arm, faster, so Green probably keeps thinking he's going to start doing that in games and then we're going to really be a good offense.
 

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I've been wondering the same thing. Maybe McCown is a great practice player and they are waiting to see that in the games. Every time I've seen King, he has looked fine. Not spectacular, but he's better than what we have seen from McCown the past 6 qtrs.
 

Russ Smith

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pete said:
I've been wondering the same thing. Maybe McCown is a great practice player and they are waiting to see that in the games. Every time I've seen King, he has looked fine. Not spectacular, but he's better than what we have seen from McCown the past 6 qtrs.


The only issue with my theory there is Green KNOWS QB's and I'm sure he's been around enough guys who looked great in practice but not in games to recognize it.
 

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The only response I have is Green is privy to MUCH more information than we are on this board. Green knows what they did in practice, what play was supposed to be run, and who made the proper adjustments based on his system.

He also interacts with the team on a daily basis. I guess there is some merit to the idea that maybe he is too close to the situation to be objective, but still, it is reaching.

I think it is a little presumptuous to say that some fans, even if they are football savy fans, know how to operate an NFL team better than somebody who has successfully made it their life's work.

To put it simply there are a lot of facts we simply do not have.
 

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john h said:
I realize Dennis Green has had a lot of success and experience as a Head Coach in the NFL. No one on this board could began to hold a candle to his knowledge about pro football. Collectively, however we bring a hundred or so of guys who have been watching NFL football as long or longer than Dennis. These guys have become football savy over the years and from what I have seen appear to recognize problems with players and the organization well before the coaches and management recognizes them. It is becoming overwhelmingly evident that the majority of the regular posters on this board thing Josh McCown has some real problems at QB and think it is time to start one of the other OB's. When you get this many football savy people seeing a problem I wonder what the coach is seeing that we do not? Individally we may be dopes compared to Dennis but collectively we have an awsome amount of savy our selves.

Yeah, sure... and

A million monkeys on a million typewriters will eventually write "War & Peace"... :D
 

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Crazy Canuck said:
Yeah, sure... and

A million monkeys on a million typewriters will eventually write "War & Peace"... :D

What's a typewriter?

:shrug:
 

TRW

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Easy for us...

OUR jobs and income aren't on the line, eh?

Dennis Green will do what HE thinks is the best chance to win, today and down the road. With all due respect to those on this board who think they know it all, I trust Dennis Green and his experience over any "savy" shown here :)

Dennis Green doesn't give a rat's behind what we think anyway...
 

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The members of this board are great, but none of us are in the locker room or on the practice field. All of our savvy is being applied to a limited window on the team. So rather than collectively deciding Josh has to go, we could be hypothesizing on what's going on behind the scenes that is resulting in what we see on the field, which I've tried to do on other threads. Few things are as they appear, and this team's internal measurement of success, politics, egos, and attitude are no different.
 

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TRW said:
OUR jobs and income aren't on the line, eh?

Dennis Green will do what HE thinks is the best chance to win, today and down the road. With all due respect to those on this board who think they know it all, I trust Dennis Green and his experience over any "savy" shown here :)

Dennis Green doesn't give a rat's behind what we think anyway...

Did he get that from Jake Plummer?

Overall I agree with JohnH.
 
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john h

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Duckjake said:
Did he get that from Jake Plummer?

Overall I agree with JohnH.

Coaches are not brain surgeons. We may be giving Dennis Green credit for being a football genius when in fact he is not. He may have been at the right place at the right time in his previous coaching days. He may have been lucky and had the right players. Then he may have been a genius. Joe Gibbs was considered a genius coach when with the Redskins. He does not look much like a genius now with the Redskins and may be lucky to come back next year. Personally I thought DG was a great sign as the Headcoach but as time goes by he looks very ordinary in the way he is managing this team. He has made some moves that seem unreal. Firing your starting center and your OL coach after 7 games may be the move of a genius or a guy who is full of himself. All I can judge him on at the end of the day is how many games did his team win. Genius or not so genius the record will speak for itself.
 
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john h

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Pariah said:
I agree and disagree at the same time. Even as a collective whole, we probably aren't qualified to call the shots. But, I do think in the case of McCown right now, Green is too close to the situation. "Josh is our starter" is one of the tenents of Green's tenure so far, and I think there is some pride involved with it at this point. I also beleive Josh must still be shoing him something, or he would have been benched--but the chemistry of this offense isn't working right now that starts with the QB.

A typical case in point may not be technical football knowledge but a philosophy which we may well be as qualified as any coach. In the last year of Jake Plummers days in Airizona it was clear he would not be comming back. Most of us on the board continually wondered when we were clearly out of the hunt that we start McCown or Parsons. The reasons are clear and obvious as we would have a better handle on what we had to start this season. You did not be a brainy head coach to figure this out. Our coaching staff and or management continued to trot Jake out there until the end to what purpose. I will say we were all smarter than the head coach and or management on this point. I think I remember a poll as to who we should draft last year. I think I remember Big Ben to be #1 on our collective poll. We all read what the various experts had to say and his performance at the workouts. We as individuals had as much info on these guys as a head coach . At this point in the season who looks better on who we should haved drafted? Big Ben as a rookie has won 5 straight. Fitz still has a lot of potential. Green had personal ties with Fitz and you wonder just how much this influenced him? It is not as if we did not have some good receivers. We definitely did not have a proven QB. You do not need to be an experienced head coach to make informed judgements on such matters.
 

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Dennis Green made Josh his man. He has to give him a full 16 game season at least to show what he can do. I figured it would take about 8 games before the team would be able to learn his system and start using it effectively. I also wanted us to draft Ben Roethlisberger, but at least we did get a very good WR in Fitz.
 
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john h

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Snakester said:
Dennis Green made Josh his man. He has to give him a full 16 game season at least to show what he can do. I figured it would take about 8 games before the team would be able to learn his system and start using it effectively. I also wanted us to draft Ben Roethlisberger, but at least we did get a very good WR in Fitz.

Fitz seems a lock to be a very good NFL player but at this point he looks to be the second best receiver comming out of the draft. The Detroit receiver (Williams?) appears to be clearly the best at this point. Speed, strength and catch the ball in a crowd. Knowing what I know now I would prefer him but when we drafted I thought Fitz would be the top receiver. I wanted Big Ben but I did not expect him to be this good this quick.
 

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john h said:
Fitz seems a lock to be a very good NFL player but at this point he looks to be the second best receiver comming out of the draft. The Detroit receiver (Williams?) appears to be clearly the best at this point. Speed, strength and catch the ball in a crowd. Knowing what I know now I would prefer him but when we drafted I thought Fitz would be the top receiver. I wanted Big Ben but I did not expect him to be this good this quick.

I really liked Williams the year before as well as last year. He looked to be the best and most complete WR in the draft. He has the speed that Fitz doesn't have. I really wanted us to draft Big Ben but it didn't happen. McCown has a chance to be a very good QB as long as he doesn't lose his confidence in himself. He is physically gifted, he just has to get the mental part of the game down and really that is the hardest thing to do. It will be interesting to see how Josh does the rest of the year. If the Cardinals win most of there remaining games it would do wonders for McCown's confidence.
 

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I just don't agree.

I don't remember the "collective" decision on Josh. If you are saying he has proven he is not "it" as a QB, I disagree.

I need to see more. He looked absolutely great in the 1st half of the Seattle game. He looked horrible in Buffalo playing in condition's he said were the worst he ever played in.

Sometimes I think the "collective" is full of theirselves. My appolgies to the "collective".
 

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Redheart said:
I don't remember the "collective" decision on Josh. If you are saying he has proven he is not "it" as a QB, I disagree.

I need to see more. He looked absolutely great in the 1st half of the Seattle game. He looked horrible in Buffalo playing in condition's he said were the worst he ever played in.

Sometimes I think the "collective" is full of theirselves. My appolgies to the "collective".

I couldn't agree with this post more.

Some of the "collective" do indeed seem more than a little full of themselves.

In fact, I have felt for a long, long time here, that in general, the collective here often is the perfect example of : check to see where they are "going" and head the opposite way. You'll probably end up being a lot more accurate in your prognistications, and a lot closer to actual real genuine reality. :D

Edited to add:

Actually when I ponder it more, I think that often times the "collective", often times and in many ways, is really not so really "collective" as far as being a large majority of fans who visit this site. (or any for that matter).
There really is a certain "core" group of people who post regularly here. And there seems many times to be a definite "pack dog" mentality pervading the "collective" thought.
That and those same people, who do that, do make up a large % of the posts, and can appear thusly, to represent a majority that in reality may not be there.
To put it bluntly....the big mouths take up most of the air space.

There's a lot of people here who only "lurk" or read the forums, but seldom actually post much....reminds me of the old LBJ term: "The Silent majority". Just becuase you stated your opinion 768 times more than someone else doesn't have anything really to do with its validity.
 
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Redheart

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Well! Thank-you!

AND thanks to Vomit-Boy! He did a GREAT job, for so many of us!
 

Tangodnzr

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john h said:
A typical case in point may not be technical football knowledge but a philosophy which we may well be as qualified as any coach. In the last year of Jake Plummers days in Airizona it was clear he would not be comming back. Most of us on the board continually wondered when we were clearly out of the hunt that we start McCown or Parsons. The reasons are clear and obvious as we would have a better handle on what we had to start this season. You did not be a brainy head coach to figure this out. Our coaching staff and or management continued to trot Jake out there until the end to what purpose. I will say we were all smarter than the head coach and or management on this point.

I think you shoot yourself right in the foot with this paragraph.
You apparently try to demonstrate how much more intelligent "we" are, but to me your very points mentioned demonstrate "we" may be a little bit of a legend in "our" own minds.
First of all it would be my contention that your initial statement " it was clear he would not be comming back." is not a fact at all.
I maintain, as I did then, that yes, near the end of that year it became evident to many, even most of us who generally liked Jake, that it was probably best for both him and the team to make a change. In spite of that, the team had to look at what the "real" options were that existed at that point.
Even I maintained that Josh was nowhere near ready. The best bet was going to be through free agency.
And until that day when Jake actually signed with Denver, he was still a legitimate option the Cards still had on the table.
Kordell came in and outsmarted himself....thank you, thank you, thank you, Lord.
Blake then entered the picture and seemed a reasonable as any "gamble" at that point.
Yes, I would agree that even most likely the Cards front office was ready for a change, but as the old saying goes: "Don't throw out the old razor blade until you actually have the new one to replace it".
And until late into the season, it was still not a forgone conclusion that Jake would be gone.
Yet you post as if you have some divine knowledge of what others were thinking. Your "facts" are not as factual as you would make them seem to be, and actually very debateable indeed
.



I think I remember a poll as to who we should draft last year. I think I remember Big Ben to be #1 on our collective poll. We all read what the various experts had to say and his performance at the workouts. We as individuals had as much info on these guys as a head coach . At this point in the season who looks better on who we should haved drafted? Big Ben as a rookie has won 5 straight. Fitz still has a lot of potential. Green had personal ties with Fitz and you wonder just how much this influenced him? It is not as if we did not have some good receivers. We definitely did not have a proven QB. You do not need to be an experienced head coach to make informed judgements on such matters.

Again, another set of "facts" that may not be totally factual. It also reeks, to me of what I call the "fantasy sports league" mind set. The concepts expressed sound more like reading a the latest issue of 'Gamer's Fantasy Stat's' or something.
Ignoring the innuendos and subleties of concepts like "team", "environment" 'dynamics of the unique situation" such as existing team composition, needs, situation, etc, etc, etc.
All those things IMO trumps any statistics or numbers as such.
I've been as critical of Green as anyone, but I don't care who he took with the #3 spot be it Fitz, Roth, Williams or whomever. Time could very easily prove taking Fitz to have been a key turning point in the long term success of this team, as much or more than anyone else could have.
Any of those 3 would help any team. The key is how eachs talents/skills are most optomized for them AND the team they go to as far as fitting each others needs.

...and just to make sure I got the point here.........you are basically saying "you" are more informed than the people who actually made and are making these decisions???
 
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john h

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Tangodnzr said:
...and just to make sure I got the point here.........you are basically saying "you" are more informed than the people who actually made and are making these decisions???

No I am not more informed than anyone or even the silent majority. After all the talk is done you get down to how many you won and how many you lost. These are indisputable facts and if you want your team to win the only thing that matters at the end of the day. At the moment we have won 2 games and our history speakes for itself. Something is wrong. Bad palyers, bad management, bad coaching. You make the call. This is a place where we can all come to vent. We can be right and we can be wrong it really does not matter. Good manners should prevail and we should never get so involved that it becomes personal. Being critical and second guessing is what fans do.
 
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