Dennis The Menace

[Skkorpion]

http://arizonasportsfans.com/storypage.php?Story_ID=470&Category=cardinals

 

[AzCards21]

Interesting article Walter. I see a pattern emerging here, strictly from a fan standpoint, of Green stirring the players and media in a large couldron.

Before the draft people were questioning him on the things he would say and do. His top five list and the big Fitz is our guy statements, but it appears to have the potentual of being our best draft in years.

Now he's using the status of being a starter to stir up more media and fan conversation, and some player posturing and motivation.

I bet this continues through training camp with new starters every week. Through pre-season. And it wouldn't surprise me to have starters suddenly lose that status during the season.

But through all of that, I also see a much more motivated team with a sense of urgency and individual players with a strong desire to run every play to perfection. What will it take to lose your label as the starter? One missed block, one missed tackle, a 9 route when it was supposed to be 9.5?

This team has been far too forgiving of half assed play in the past. I don't see that as being the case any longer. And that's good.

 

[vince56]

I dunno, I really like Green's approach. The players are not there to be treated warmly and coddled. They're there to be used to win football games. If that means some tough love sometimes, so be it.

 

[jw7]

I dunno. His moves have been baffling, but I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt based on his track record. Like Walter said in the article, its only June, so the final lineup is not set in stone.

 

[az jam]

Green did not make many changes during the season when he was Viking coach. He normally stuck with his core group of starters unless an injury occurred or someone was underperforming. IMO he is setting up training camp to be very competitive with players having to earn their starting positions.

 

[Red Air Force]

One thing it will do is to definetly keep many of the players fighting hard during this break to be in top physical shape for Training Camp. If guys want hang on to the spot or get it back, then they better bust their ass from now til then. NO ONE is comfortable, I think it's genius.

 

[CardsRep03]

No position is safe and Green is unpredictable. This whole scenario sets up training camp perfectly--no one's position is safe, and that's a good thing. Remember the last few season when Marmie was scheme-ing for a lack of pass rush aka talent? Well, Green is "roster scheme-ing" to make up for a lack of overall talent on the team. There is a reason we've been 4-12, 3-13, 5-11...Green knows this. This may be his best shot at getting more out of less. Either that or he's doing us all a favor and giving us something to talk about for the next 2 months. There will never be a dull moment in Cardinal land while Green is in charge.

 

[slanidrac16]

Green did not make many changes during the season when he was Viking coach. He normally stuck with his core group of starters unless an injury occurred or someone was underperforming. IMO he is setting up training camp to be very competitive with players having to earn their starting positions.

EXACTLY!!! Everybody needs to look beyond the smoke and calm down a little.

 

[Cardiac]

In today's NFL the talent level is fairly even amongst many teams. The winning teams set themselves apart by attitude, determination, dedication and coaching. Oft times players believe they are working hard but almost always there is another level that they could and should be reaching for. DG is raising the bar as high as it can go and these players need to stop pouting and work towards the new goals.

Shipp plays very hard during the game, could he be doing more in practice? I don't know but it seems DG thinks he can be. Why is Emmitt better at blitz pick up? At this point Shipp should be at the same level and last year he surely wasn't.

Freddie Jones knows he is the best TE on the team but does he have Shannon Sharpe dedication. I would think not since FJ has a ton of talent but it doesn't always translate to his play on the field.

LJ just signed a lucrative contract. How many times have we seen players in this situation lose some of their work ethic? How come some players have their best years when they are in the last year of their contract? They are extra motivated to make more money. DG is making sure LJ doesn't fall into this trap.

In prior years with the Cards these players had it made because they were obviously the most talented players on the team and this team was lacking in overall talent. Now everyone realizes that everyone must give 100% all the time to reach their true potential.

Allen Iverson is a classic example of an incredibly talented player who gives it his all at game time. He is also a spoiled brat who doesn't think he has to practive hard or at all. Larry Brown spent several seasons trying to get through to Iverson about this and couldn't. Many Philly fans blamed Brown for not winning a championship and thought he was to hard on poor little Allen. Brown goes to Detroit and we can all see how that turned out.

Let's give DG more than a couple of months before we decide he doesn't know what he's doing. At this point I like what he's doing and can't wait to see how things shake out during training camp.

 

[ajcardfan]

Cardiac, that is an A+ post. Very well thought out and very well said. I hope you are right!

 

[Goldfield]

Greens approach is baffeling to "us" the fans.

But first off change IS good for this team. Green has erased ALL the negative vibes from this team n a very fast way...


Making the players bust their asses is great. As long as Green knows when to give a much needed compliment when a player has earned one. That is how you keep balance to the fine line between demanding & just plane *****.


I Just hope the Emmitt thing isnt the Bidwells stepping in front of Green.

 

[az jam]

Making the players bust their asses is great. As long as Green knows when to give a much needed compliment when a player has earned one. That is how you keep balance to the fine line between demanding & just plane *****.

I certainly don't want to get on the bandwagon that DG can do no wrong; however when he was the Viking coach he never, ever criticized his players in the media.

 

[NFL_FAN]

As I posted under the article.....

You know what..let Denny rattle the cages all he wants. A coach with a backbone is a very nice change. And you are right, it is only June 20th but why not put a little fear into an apathetic team that has allowed the players to run over coaches and management like they are God's gift to the Cardinals. Where would these guys be lining up on successful teams? Why should Dennis expect anything other than 100% from these millionaires? Let Dennis coach his team, our team, in the manner that got him the impressive record he has and quit whining about it until the season is at least half over!! Mac, Bugel, and others have proven being a nice guy and liked by the players doesn't work on a team that has accepted being in the bottom 5!! That mentality shouldn't cut it anymore, no one should just show up for a paycheck or put it into high gear in a contract year just to get traded or released. Let them fear and hopefully respect Dennis in the end. Tough love, baby! And just maybe we will get to the playoffs in 2004!!

 

[Wild Card]

Training Camp Starters?

Why does anyone care who Dennis Green has named as his offensive starters in June, fer chrissakes? In my estimation, this is a little like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. Here's why, for anyone who may have missed it:

Only one of the eleven named starters wasn't on the Cardinals roster last season, when this was the worst offense in the league. One player. Rookie Larry Fitzgerald, who--apparent talent notwithstanding--has yet to play a down in the NFL. Every one of the remaining ten players started one or more games for the Cards in 2003, so it isn't like these are players who haven't had their chances.

Unless this nondescript bunch has a collective rebirth under Green and his assistant coaches, and suddenly discover wellsprings of ability the former regime couldn't unearth, this is gonna be a long season. Regardless of who does or doesn't start at OLT, RB, or anywhere else.

WC

 

[maddogkf]

If we were coming off a 12-4 season & a SB victory & these changes were being made, I'd be ticked.

However, we weren't & we didn't & change is good. The past 18 years (sans 1) have not been good.

Rattle away. Rattle the cage.

 

[Bobcat]

You know what..let Denny rattle the cages all he wants. A coach with a backbone is a very nice change. And you are right, it is only June 20th but why not put a little fear into an apathetic team that has allowed the players to run over coaches and management like they are God's gift to the Cardinals. Where would these guys be lining up on successful teams? Why should Dennis expect anything other than 100% from these millionaires? Let Dennis coach his team, our team, in the manner that got him the impressive record he has and quit whining about it until the season is at least half over!! Mac, Bugel, and others have proven being a nice guy and liked by the players doesn't work on a team that has accepted being in the bottom 5!! That mentality shouldn't cut it anymore, no one should just show up for a paycheck or put it into high gear in a contract year just to get traded or released. Let them fear and hopefully respect Dennis in the end. Tough love, baby! And just maybe we will get to the playoffs in 2004!!

I couldn't agree more!!!!

Allan

 

[Wild Card]

Let Dennis coach his team, our team, in the manner that got him the impressive record he has and quit whining about it until the season is at least half over... maybe we will get to the playoffs in 2004!!

NFL_FAN:

So, Dennis Green is gonna turn sow's ears into silk purses, huh? Lemons into lemonade? Chicken sh*t into chicken salad?

Let's review. When Green took over the Minnesota Vikings for the 1992 season, he inherited an 8-8 team with the following assets:

>A receiving corps of Steve Jordan, Anthony Carter, Hassan Jones and Cris Carter. Jordan had been to six consecutive Pro Bowls--the only TE in history, to that point, selected to more than five. Still trying to crack the starting line-up was second-year "project" Jake Reed.

>An OL, ranked 2nd in yards per rush and eighth in sacks yielded, that included three-time Pro Bowlers Randall McDaniel and Gary Zimmerman. (Each went to his fourth Pro Bowl at the end of the 1992 season.)

>In the offensive backfield, three veteran QBs in Rich Gannon, Sean Salisbury and Wade Wilson. At RB, a healthy Terry Allen had averaged 4.7 ypc in taking over for Herschel Walker. Roger Craig was still available as a backup.

>Lining up on the DL were Chris Doleman, Henry Thomas and John Randle. The LB corps included three-time Pro Bowler Mike Merriweather and Plan B free agent Jack Del Rio, who'd led the Dallas Cowboys in tackles in 1991. SS Todd Scott and RCB Audray McMillian, both of whom made the Pro Bowl in 1992, were already on the roster as well.

What's my point? That when Green took his first Vikings team to an 11-5 record and the playoffs, he was doing it with a fairly talented roster, littered with current and former Pro Bowlers, that had gone .500 under his predecessor. And he did it with Tony Dungy as his DC, who should probably get some credit for that unit's performance (7th points allowed, 9th yards allowed).

Give Green his due. He's been a successful head coach in this league. But he was handed a far better group of players in Minnesota than last year's Cardinals squad. Even if he matches his first-year success with the Vikes--i.e., adds three wins to the prior year's total--we're looking at a 7-9 Cards team in 2004.

And that's about what I expect, given that the only addition to last year's roster among the current offensive starters is a rookie WR. So let's hold off on the playoff predictions for a little while yet, O.K.?

WC

 

[Shuesters2]

Wild Card,

Thanks for the perspective. Good stuff.

Shuesters

 

[BigRedArk]

Shuesters2 Wild Card,

Thanks for the perspective. Good stuff.

Shuesters

 

[NFL_FAN]

NFL_FAN:

So, Dennis Green is gonna turn sow's ears into silk purses, huh? Lemons into lemonade? Chicken sh*t into chicken salad?

Even if he matches his first-year success with the Vikes--i.e., adds three wins to the prior year's total--we're looking at a 7-9 Cards team in 2004.

And that's about what I expect, given that the only addition to last year's roster among the current offensive starters is a rookie WR. So let's hold off on the playoff predictions for a little while yet, O.K.?

WC

Straw into gold? That would be cool!! I understand your point of view and the reality check, appreciated. My point is let's lay off the guy and what he does until he puts a regular season team on the field for 8 games as opposed to jumping all over him immediately. I know there are DG haters out there who are just waiting for him to fail but in him failing so do the Cardinals and so do we fans have to endure another grueling season. I prefer to keep optimistic and if that's a fault, I'll live with it!

 

[Duckjake]

Well before we slit our throats let's see what Green has inherited with the Cardinals.

OL: 3 first round draft picks and backups who are better than the starters were on the '98 playoff team.
WR: An all pro,plus two first round draft picks AND Nate Poole.
TE: caught 127 for 1,436 yds '99-'00 playing in a real offense.
RB: The NFL's career leader in rushing yards and TD's.
QB: Young and strong who has shown he can lead his team from behind against playoff contenders.
P: Former Pro Bowler Scott Player
Plus real return specialists instead of moonlighting WR's and RB's.

On defense:

Two first round draft picks, a former Super Bowl MVP, another DB with Super Bowl experience, some of the best young LB's in the league AND Russell Davis and Fred Wakefield.

And of course overall the youngest team in the NFL.

There's not as much sawdust in the Cardinal's transmission as you think.

 

[Wild Card]

Well before we slit our throats let's see what Green has inherited with the Cardinals.

OL: 3 first round draft picks and backups who are better than the starters were on the '98 playoff team.
WR: An all pro,plus two first round draft picks AND Nate Poole.
TE: caught 127 for 1,436 yds '99-'00 playing in a real offense.
RB: The NFL's career leader in rushing yards and TD's.
QB: Young and strong who has shown he can lead his team from behind against playoff contenders.

DJ:

With the exception of rookie Larry Fitzgerald--who had better be all that, for the Cardinals' sake--these are the same guys who produced four wins and the fewest offensive yards in the league, last year. And first-round status means nothing if the player doesn't produce. Remember Thomas Jones?

On defense:

Two first round draft picks, a former Super Bowl MVP, another DB with Super Bowl experience, some of the best young LB's in the league AND Russell Davis and Fred Wakefield.

More first-rounders who haven't panned out. Dexter Jackson's been "demoted," although most observers expect him to "win" his job back in training camp. Duane Starks never got on the field last season and had minimal impact the year before. You're overrating the LBs. And you've gotta be kidding about Davis and Wakefield.

There's not as much sawdust in the Cardinals' transmission as you think.

If you say so. After all, if you can't be optimistic in June, then when? Me, I think all this offseason hubbub about demotions, promotions and starting assignments is laughable. Again, with only a few exceptions--rookies Fitzgerald and Darnell Dockett, FAs Bertrand Berry and David Macklin--these "starters" are mostly the same players who finished 4-12 and were ranked 32nd in the NFL on both sides of the ball last year. (In contrast, the 1991 Vikings team that Green inherited had an 8-8 record, and finished 14th out of 28 teams for both yards gained and yards allowed.)

In Minnesota, Green took a reasonably talented team that had gone 52-43 (with only one losing season) in six years under his predecessor, got three more wins out of them, and returned the Vikes to the playoffs after only a two year absence.

In Arizona, Green's taken over a team that went 17-40 in 3+ seasons with Dave McGinnis, and that's had only one winning season since moving to the desert in 1988.

Green's a good coach, but he's no miracle worker. And he doesn't have as much to work with here as he did in his last rebuilding assignment. Anyone thinking that this will be an overnight fix is gonna be disappointed.

WC

 

[Red Air Force]

In Arizona, Green's taken over a team that went 17-40 in 3+ seasons with Dave McGinnis

.

 

[slanidrac16]

This is a very good debate.

Clear cut opinions without slamming anybody.

It's okay to be optimistic or pesimistic. I always choose to be optimistic because as somebody said earlier, if you can't be optimistic in June, then when can you be? Obviously stated by a Cardinal fan!

That being said, can the Cards make the playoffs? Absolutely. Is it likely? Absolutely not. Many things would have to go the Cards way for a miracle season. Here are a few things in no particular order:
1. Stay healthy. This goes for most teams but remember, I'm speaking for a Cardinal "miracle" season. Injuries always happen, so this isn't likely.
2. McCown would have to explode onto the scene. If that were to happen, it would mean Q and Fitz are contibutors and benefactors. I can see McCown having a decent year (20-24 td's, 15-18 ints, 3200 yds.) but not a Kurt Warner "explode on the scene" type year. In summary, not likely to happen.
3. With Smith and Shipp we lack a gamebreaker. There is no doubt in my mind that both these guys can run the ball effectively, but neither will score on a 60 or 70 yd run. I'm willing to bet Smith won't have a run of longer than 20 yds all season. Could Anderson or Scobey fill that void? Maybe, but it certainly doesn't seem likely. Opposing teams will constantly double Q and Fitz which should open up the field for big plays...but we don't seem to have that type of player on this roster.
4. Berry and somebody else...anybody else, would have to have career years. That means Berry needs to get 12+ sacks and somebody else would have to be close to him. Who? Pace, Johnson, Bryant? Again, this is not likely.
5. Starks needs to be a true #1 db and Wilson needs to blossom. This is 1 scenario that has the best chance of happening, however, this alone will not be enough.
6. Failure by 2 or 3 other teams. Seattle and the Eagles seem like sure things. The Panthers seem solid but took a few hits in free agency. The Rams and Packers have peaked but seem to have a year left in them. That leaves 3 playoff spots left. The Cowboys, Bucs, Vikings, Falcons, Saints, and Redskins are poised to be the remaining teams fighting for those last 3 spots. We could poke holes in everyone of those teams if we evaluated each of them. It probably won't matter.

I'm optimistic, but realistic. If we go 8-8 this year it will really be something.

 

[Bobcat]

Straw into gold? That would be cool!! I understand your point of view and the reality check, appreciated. My point is let's lay off the guy and what he does until he puts a regular season team on the field for 8 games as opposed to jumping all over him immediately. I know there are DG haters out there who are just waiting for him to fail but in him failing so do the Cardinals and so do we fans have to endure another grueling season. I prefer to keep optimistic and if that's a fault, I'll live with it!

Thank you for your true insight!!! There are to many negative people on this forum. We should all keep a positive outlook. Anything can be better than we had before.

Allan