Didn't we have a debate about Euro vs. NBA talent?

[Lars the Red]

I believe we did. Sometime around the draft if memory serves. I stated something to the effect that NBA players playing against Euro teams, with International style officials, and against the fundamentally superior team offenses and team defenses, would struggle.

Some of you might argue that we aren't fielding our best players. Well, that's true. Shaq, Kobe, Garnett, TMac, etc. have chosen to stay home. But the team we are fielding isn't made up of Eisley, Voskul, Mikki Moore or Casey Jacobson either. These are supposed to be some of the greatest athletes in the world, but with few exceptions, they appear to be looking like guys that aren't capable of playing the true game of basketball.

Did anyone not enjoy watching the Italians work the ball on offense? Wasn't it nice to watch players that didn't feel the need to put their 'AndOne' skills on display? Join me my brothers in an effort to change the face of American basketball back to it's roots. Applaud the efforts of the International teams and scorn the displays of the Americans. Show David Stern and the NCAA that we do appreciate good basketball and we don't need to see guys swinging from the rims to enjoy the sport.

-Call the traveling.
-Bring a 5 second count back into play.
-Call a T for hanging on the rim.
-Don't bail out stars with cheap fouls on other players.
-Call the contact in the post when it gives an advantage to a player.

Coaches need to become teachers again, not just babysitters. Demand fundamental drills. Demand that players practice. Don't appease the spoiled punks that would struggle in any other walk of life with out sports. Let some fail in a most miserable public way as a lesson/message to all that believe sports are an entitlement. The best punk on the play ground is still just a punk on the play ground.

My spleen is vented. I will enjoy any responses.

 

[F-Dog]

Dude, what are you talking about?

Italy was 100% flash and And-1. They ran the same play all game, took crazy shots, bowed to the crowd, etc.

I guess you could argue that the Germans were more sound fundamentally, but they lost...


Anyway, the problem with this US team is obviously selection. There are plenty of fundamentally-sound basketball players from the US; just because only a couple of them were invited to play on the national team, doesn't mean the others don't exist.

-Call the contact in the post when it gives an advantage to a player.

This seems like a much bigger problem in FIBA play than it does in the NBA, actually. All I saw in the post for two games was grabbing, holding, warding off with the off arm, etc.

 

[Lars the Red]

Dude, what are you talking about?

Italy was 100% flash and And-1. They ran the same play all game, took crazy shots, bowed to the crowd, etc.

So exactly what game did you watch, because I saw tons of ball movement, screens, back cuts, solid parimeter shooting, solid free throws, and, yes at least one bow to an appreciative home crowd.

I guess you could argue that the Germans were more sound fundamentally, but they lost....

Barely, missing some key players and with the US coming off of an extreme ass whipping, being ridiculed in the press around the world, and getting lucky on a last second prayer.

Anyway, the problem with this US team is obviously selection. There are plenty of fundamentally-sound basketball players from the US; just because only a couple of them were invited to play on the national team, doesn't mean the others don't exist..

Who? Give me your list of plenty, because I can't think of more than a handful and the majority are guys that are currently playing on someone else's national team.

This seems like a much bigger problem in FIBA play than it does in the NBA, actually. All I saw in the post for two games was grabbing, holding, warding off with the off arm, etc.

Your missing the point. International is physical, but position related. You don't get to run over another player in the post just because you outweigh them by 110 lbs. What you call warding off is called making yourself a larger target. The best part is everyone gets the same calls.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Dude, what are you talking about?

Italy was 100% flash and And-1. They ran the same play all game, took crazy shots, bowed to the crowd, etc.

QUOTE]


dude, you're way off here. the italians beat us with good old fashioned fundamental shooting, passing, and moving without the ball. and1? not by a long shot.

 

[slinslin]

The italiens didn't win because of fundamentals.

They won because of

1. Attitude
2. They are playing as a team for a long time
3. They have well defined roles

A regular NBA team would beat the crap out of team USA at this point.

 

[elindholm]

A regular NBA team would beat the crap out of team USA at this point.

A good regular NBA team, maybe.

 

[Gorilla]

IMO American players have a big advantage. Athleticism is a natural ability, while fundamental basketball is learned. The point being, is that at elast they can do something about it.

 

[Lars the Red]

The italiens didn't win because of fundamentals.

They won because of

1. Attitude
2. They are playing as a team for a long time
3. They have well defined roles

A regular NBA team would beat the crap out of team USA at this point.

Fundamentals, as in good free throw shooting, good parimeter shooting, good ball movement, good spacing, good team defense and playing within themselves. These guys are playing on the National team together, but they play on different teams during the Euro-Pro season. It's not like they've been playing together everyday since puberty.

 

[Lars the Red]

A regular NBA team would beat the crap out of team USA at this point.

A good regular NBA team, maybe.

Maybe, maybe not. The team that beat the crap out of them from Italy is made up of AllStars just like the one from the US. The difference being, the Int. team knows the International game, plays a much more team oriented style, and doesn't just rely on athleticism to win games.

If the US players began using the same type of practice drills, worked as many hours as the Euro players do on the basics of the game, and changed their mindset to one that goes from me to we, they would never lose another game. But that won't happen until the powers that be decide the current American game is bad and in need of a major overhaul.

 

[George O'Brien]

Maybe, maybe not. The team that beat the crap out of them from Italy is made up of AllStars just like the one from the US. The difference being, the Int. team knows the International game, plays a much more team oriented style, and doesn't just rely on athleticism to win games.

If the US players began using the same type of practice drills, worked as many hours as the Euro players do on the basics of the game, and changed their mindset to one that goes from me to we, they would never lose another game. But that won't happen until the powers that be decide the current American game is bad and in need of a major overhaul.

Maybe if ESPN would show good passing rather than dunks on their highlights.

There are an enormous number of reasons why the NBA struggles with fundimentals:

1. Limited college experience by players
2. Too many games restrict the amount of practice time during the game
3. Players grew up in the old "illegal defense" environment explicitly designed to give guys chances to make dunks. Even now the defensive 3 second rule restricts how the zone is played.
4. NBA overpays selfish players at the expense of unselifish players
5. Long term guaranteed contracts limit the power of the coaches make players do what they are told.
6. Rapid turnover of coaches gives power to the players.

 

[Gaddabout]

The bottomline is our best NBA players aren't very patriotic. We aren't putting the best players on the court. Even if we did, the disparity between our best players and international teams isn't what it was in 1988. Far from it.

 

[George O'Brien]

One idea I've been pushing is that the NBA champion represents the USA in the Olympics. Their coach would have the option of replacing up to six players with other NBA players, but the core of the team would remain. No player could be excused except if proven to be medically unable to play. (BTW, I would dramatically increase the amount of money the players get for playing in the Olympics paid for by the NBA that gets a lot of cheap advertising.)

Realistically, the Pistons plus a half dozen other players like Duncan and Amare would be better prepared than the current USA team.

 

[Joe Mama]

One idea I've been pushing is that the NBA champion represents the USA in the Olympics. Their coach would have the option of replacing up to six players with other NBA players, but the core of the team would remain. No player could be excused except if proven to be medically unable to play. (BTW, I would dramatically increase the amount of money the players get for playing in the Olympics paid for by the NBA that gets a lot of cheap advertising.)

Realistically, the Pistons plus a half dozen other players like Duncan and Amare would be better prepared than the current USA team.

yeah George, that's a realistic possibility.

Joe Mama

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

yeah George, that's a realistic possibility.

Joe Mama

my favorite part is that no player is excused w/o medical reasoning.

george, man do i wish something like that was even remotely possible, but that's some good crack man!

 

[F-Dog]

So exactly what game did you watch, because I saw tons of ball movement, screens, back cuts, solid parimeter shooting, solid free throws, and, yes at least one bow to an appreciative home crowd.

I saw the game where the Italians ran a guy off a couple of screens, and/or ran a high pick-and-fade--on every possession. They didn't defend too well, and they certainly didn't rebound.

They won because they made their perimeter shots, including some very tough shots, and because of the Americans' missed FTs, defensive breakdowns, and unforced turnovers. The Italians' "fundamentals" didn't have anything to do with it.

Your missing the point. International is physical, but position related. You don't get to run over another player in the post just because you outweigh them by 110 lbs. What you call warding off is called making yourself a larger target. The best part is everyone gets the same calls.

I don't remember Shaq having much of a problem with the International rules, honestly. Didn't he dominate every game he played in a US uniform?

And in the last three games, calls have been all over the place. You can really see the difference between the NBA's three officials and FIBA's two officials.

Who? Give me your list of plenty, because I can't think of more than a handful and the majority are guys that are currently playing on someone else's national team.

PG
Mike Bibby
Sam Cassell
Brent Barry
Jason Williams
Darrell Armstrong
Damon Stoudamire
Speedy Claxton
Kirk Hinrich
Jeff McInnis
Derek Fisher

SG
Kobe Bryant
Tracy McGrady
Ray Allen
Richard Hamilton
Michael Redd
Latrell Sprewell
Doug Christie
Michael Finley
Eddie Jones
Derek Anderson
David Wesley
Raja Bell
Jim Jackson
Anthony Peeler

SF
Shawn Marion
Richard Jefferson
Brian Cardinal
James Posey
Mike Miller
Shane Battier
Antawn Jamison
Rashard Lewis
Wally Szczerbiak
Grant Hill

PF
Kevin Garnett
Chris Webber
Rasheed Wallace
Elton Brand
PJ Brown
Brian Grant
Kurt Thomas
Donyell Marshall
Antonio Davis
Troy Murphy

C
Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
Brad Miller
Jermaine O'Neal
Marcus Camby
Theo Ratliff
Jeff Foster
Jake Voskuhl
Shawn Bradley
Greg Ostertag

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

didn't defend too well
didn't rebound.
unforced turnovers
The Italians' "fundamentals" didn't have anything to do with it.


PG
Jason Williams
Damon Stoudamire
Speedy Claxton
Jeff McInnis
Derek Fisher

SG
Latrell Sprewell
Doug Christie
Michael Finley
Eddie Jones
Derek Anderson
David Wesley
Raja Bell
Anthony Peeler

SF
Shawn Marion
Richard Jefferson
Brian Cardinal
James Posey
Antawn Jamison
Rashard Lewis
Wally Szczerbiak
Grant Hill

PF
Brian Grant
Kurt Thomas
Donyell Marshall
Antonio Davis

C
Shaquille O'Neal
Jermaine O'Neal
Marcus Camby
Theo Ratliff
Jeff Foster
Jake Voskuhl
Shawn Bradley
Greg Ostertag

i've removed everything from this post that i thought was at least a little legit. everything that remains just makes me say "wow" and shake my head...

 

[F-Dog]

You have a problem with Raja Bell's fundamentals?

 

[George O'Brien]

my favorite part is that no player is excused w/o medical reasoning.

george, man do i wish something like that was even remotely possible, but that's some good crack man!

I didn't say it was realistic. I said it was what I wanted. I rarely want realistic things.

 

[Lars the Red]

I saw the game where the Italians ran a guy off a couple of screens, and/or ran a high pick-and-fade--on every possession. They didn't defend too well, and they certainly didn't rebound.

Setting good screens is one of the fundamentals that Americans don't take too seriously.

They won because they made their perimeter shots, including some very tough shots, and because of the Americans' missed FTs, defensive breakdowns, and unforced turnovers. The Italians' "fundamentals" didn't have anything to do with it.

Good shooting is a fundamental skill. Good freethrows are a fundamental skill. Good passing is a fundamental skill. The Italians have them, the US doesn't.

I don't remember Shaq having much of a problem with the International rules, honestly. Didn't he dominate every game he played in a US uniform?

Shaq did have problems in some games, but his lack of minutes played a bigger role in it. He would not get the calls he currently gets in the International game.

And in the last three games, calls have been all over the place. You can really see the difference between the NBA's three officials and FIBA's two officials.

3 officials is the key, being NBA officials has nothing to do with it. Three NCAA officials would do a better job than 2. FIBA's guys no the game, and just as it is in any league, you have to adjust to the guys with the whistles, they don't adjust to you.

PG
Mike Bibby
Sam Cassell
Brent Barry
Jason Williams-not
Darrell Armstrong
Damon Stoudamire-hardly
Speedy Claxton-No
Kirk Hinrich
Jeff McInnis-your reaching
Derek Fisher

SG
Kobe Bryant
Tracy McGrady-has never played a team game in his life
Ray Allen
Richard Hamilton-nope
Michael Redd-average at best
Latrell Sprewell-passing skills? ball handling skills? consistant shooter?
Doug Christie-reach
Michael Finley-a model of consistancy?
Eddie Jones
Derek Anderson-marginal
David Wesley
Raja Bell-extremely marginal
Jim Jackson-your kidding, right?
Anthony Peeler-weak passer and ball handler

SF
Shawn Marion-poor shot selection, poor passer
Richard Jefferson
Brian Cardinal
James Posey-very average
Mike Miller
Shane Battier
Antawn Jamison-ball handling? shot selection? passing?
Rashard Lewis
Wally Szczerbiak-very average
Grant Hill-Nate Archibald was a solid player too, but he hasn't been on the court for about the same number of years as Hill

PF
Kevin Garnett
Chris Webber-Oh, please. Has no consistant shot. Never checks out.
Rasheed Wallace
Elton Brand
PJ Brown-Shooting skills? Passing skills?
Brian Grant-Can miss 2 footers with the best of them. Nice choice.
Kurt Thomas-Has he ever passed?
Donyell Marshall
Antonio Davis-Uh, no. Bad shot, bad passing, should never put the ball on the floor.
Troy Murphy-Never checks out and is hard pressed to see a shot he didn't want to take.

C
Shaquille O'Neal-sorry, can't shoot a jumper, can't shoot a freethrow, can't be considered fundamentally sound.
Tim Duncan
Brad Miller-extremely average
Jermaine O'Neal-Passing skills and if memory serves, weak at the line.
Marcus Camby
Theo Ratliff-Are we taking offense into consideration? What shot?
Jeff Foster-complete marginal
Jake Voskuhl-ditto
Shawn Bradley-Your going straight to Hell for that.
Greg Ostertag-Turns the ball over all the time. Can't shoot.

This completely makes my case. Your having to play the James Posey card just to fill out a group. That just isn't right.

 

[F-Dog]

Good shooting is a fundamental skill. Good freethrows are a fundamental skill. Good passing is a fundamental skill. The Italians have them, the US doesn't.

Defense and rebounding are "fundamental skills", too. So is shot selection.

I can't believe you're still trying to defend the Italians as fundamentally sound. They have worse fundamentals than Germany, S&M, and Turkey, which is probably the reason they're not as good as those teams.

3 officials is the key, being NBA officials has nothing to do with it. Three NCAA officials would do a better job than 2. FIBA's guys no the game, and just as it is in any league, you have to adjust to the guys with the whistles, they don't adjust to you.

So you admit that NBA officiating is better then?

This completely makes my case. Your having to play the James Posey card just to fill out a group. That just isn't right.

I think you're the one who's not getting it here.

You see, you can't have it both ways--either you're talking about these players in an NBA context (in which case LeBron and Dwyane Wade are plenty good enough to take on all comers) or you're talking about them in a FIBA context (in which case none of them is close to being a "marginal" player).

Raja Bell is "extremely marginal"? He's an outstanding defender, a good spot-up shooter, and a very good team player. Raja Bell is a better player (and not coincidentally, better-paid) than any guard the USA has faced in Europe.

If Bell is "extremely marginal", what does that make a player like Alex Righetti? "Toast"? "Garbage"?

Brad Miller is "extremely average"? Miller would be the best player on any team the US has faced besides Germany. In fact, if you put Miller on Germany, they would immediately become one of the big Olympic favorites. Or don't you think the Germans could use an upgrade over Femerling?

Shawn Bradley is one of the best zone centers in the world. His problems are power players, quick centers and the defensive 3-second rule, and he wouldn't be facing any of those if he was playing for the US.

Who defends Yao Ming better than Ostertag? Which Olympic team wouldn't love to have a Yao-stopper on the end of their bench?

And if you think Shawn Marion isn't capable of being effective on an international team, you obviously haven't been watching the games so far.


If you look at the role players on my list you'll see that most of them have some things in common--they're very good defenders who have the mentality to play within themselves for short minutes, and they have spots on the floor where they're money, so team USA can spread the other team's defense when they're out there. Put a bunch of those guys around Duncan, and the other teams have no chance.

 

[George O'Brien]

The USA team is extremely vulnerable to a hot shooting, three point oriented opponent. There is the other issue which is that no one since Italy has played zone against the USA team on a consistent basis.

Maybe I'm being paranoid, but it feels as if these teams are setting the USA team up to be beaten. The USA should have been getting experience against Euopean zones, but that is not what they've seen since Italy. The USA team is moving the ball better than before, but I'm not sure they are ready to beat the zone.

 

[Joe Mama]

The USA team is extremely vulnerable to a hot shooting, three point oriented opponent. There is the other issue which is that no one since Italy has played zone against the USA team on a consistent basis.

Maybe I'm being paranoid, but it feels as if these teams are setting the USA team up to be beaten. The USA should have been getting experience against Euopean zones, but that is not what they've seen since Italy. The USA team is moving the ball better than before, but I'm not sure they are ready to beat the zone.

I was thinking the same thing the other day and again today. I honestly believe that these teams are purposely playing man-to-man defense against team USA to keep them from getting much-needed experience against the zone defenses.

Joe Mama

 

[F-Dog]

I was thinking the same thing the other day and again today. I honestly believe that these teams are purposely playing man-to-man defense against team USA to keep them from getting much-needed experience against the zone defenses.

Joe Mama

Yup.

 

[cepstrum]

I was thinking the same thing the other day and again today. I honestly believe that these teams are purposely playing man-to-man defense against team USA to keep them from getting much-needed experience against the zone defenses.

Joe Mama

Hmm interesting thought, but Turkey has no reason to really do this. They arent competing in the olympics. The only teaem that really did that with that purpose possibly in mind is Serbia and Montenegro.

 

[George O'Brien]

Hmm interesting thought, but Turkey has no reason to really do this. They arent competing in the olympics. The only teaem that really did that with that purpose possibly in mind is Serbia and Montenegro.

All the Europeans benefit if the USA team loses, not just the team with the gold.