ESPN ranks teams by analytic use; Suns ranked in the middle tier

[sunsfan88]

In recent years, Phoenix has worked with several industry leaders responsible for conveying basketball analytics to a larger audience, including real plus-minus co-creators Jeremias Engelmann and Steve Ilardi, John Ezekowitz (who has written for FiveThirtyEight) and Zach Bradshaw (now with ESPN).

The Suns employ an unorthodox front office in which the business and basketball sides of the organization share analytics resources, as overseen by Zaheer Benjamin, VP for business planning and basketball analytics. According to sources, that structure has led to tension and miscommunication between the two groups.

But a source familiar with the Phoenix front office says the organization has begun to work through the issue, with more dedicated analysts available to basketball operations. Suns GM Ryan McDonough comes from a scouting background, but his formative experience with the Boston Celtics has given him an appreciation for statistical analysis, and assistant GM Trevor Buckstein gets high marks for his understanding of analytics.

"It's been a tool for me," McDonough told SportsBusiness Daily after being hired in Phoenix in 2013. "In Boston, we were at the cutting edge of some of that stuff, and certainly guys like Daryl Morey and Mike Zarren were smarter and further along with it than I am. I learned a lot and we're trying to emphasize that here."

Suns coach Jeff Hornacek, an accounting major at Iowa State, has followed through on a promise to Grantland's Zach Lowe to improve the team's shot selection. Phoenix had the league's fourth-highest ratio of midrange attempts to 3-pointers in 2012-13, but the fifth-lowest ratio in 2013-14, Hornacek's first season at the helm.

http://espn.go.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/12331388/the-great-analytics-rankings

 

[Errntknght]

Thanks for posting the link sunsfan... I was quite surprised how wide spread the use of analytics is already - most teams have a branch of their FO which deals with analytics and a significant staff. People paid to be idiots according to Sir Charles - to be maximally incorrect he claimed the Spurs had no use for such foolishness and it turns out the Spurs are in the top tier of users. He's always good for a laugh...

 

[slinslin]

I would not like to be a fan of those franchises in the low categories.

No surprise that the Nets, Lakers and Knicks are among the worst, they try to solve things with throwing money at problems.

 

[sunsfan88]

Thanks for posting the link sunsfan... I was quite surprised how wide spread the use of analytics is already - most teams have a branch of their FO which deals with analytics and a significant staff. People paid to be idiots according to Sir Charles - to be maximally incorrect he claimed the Spurs had no use for such foolishness and it turns out the Spurs are in the top tier of users. He's always good for a laugh...

What Charles said was stupid because he said that analytics don't mean anything at all.

However, he also said that the game isn't defined entirely by analytics and that's true. I don't think you can put all your eggs into the analytics basket and expect a winner. Just like I dont think you can put all your eggs into just watching the game either.

Even Spurs, Mavs, Rockets and 76ers all likely watch games as well and use the analytics along with the different variables and situations.

I found it most interesting that NFL teams are hesitant to dedicating themselves to analytics as much as other sports teams do.

 

[AzStevenCal]

What Charles said was stupid because he said that analytics don't mean anything at all.

However, he also said that the game isn't defined entirely by analytics and that's true. I don't think you can put all your eggs into the analytics basket and expect a winner. Just like I dont think you can put all your eggs into just watching the game either.

Even Spurs, Mavs, Rockets and 76ers all likely watch games as well and use the analytics along with the different variables and situations.

I found it most interesting that NFL teams are hesitant to dedicating themselves to analytics as much as other sports teams do.

Oh come on, this has never been an argument between using nothing but analytics or not using them at all. Charles mocked analytics and he mocked the people that used them. If he later on said they are useful but just a tool, that's just a tool changing his story.

Steve

 

[slinslin]

Analytics is by far the most important tool and reliable tool and Charles Barkley would not understand that.

Charles Barkley thinks that being a talented basketball player is a qualification to understanding the game, building a team, evaluating trades and so on which is just total non-sense.

Hardcore fan nerds that might totally suck at basketball themselves but love watching the game and UNDERSTANDING the game have most likely a lot more basketball understanding than Charles Barkley although Barkley played and practiced in the NBA.

Not to mention Barkley grew up in the NBA's dark ages concerning play style and tactics.

 

[Phrazbit]

Not to mention Barkley grew up in the NBA's dark ages concerning play style and tactics.

I'd disagree with that. The 80s were a boom of NBA innovation, teams with contrasting styles all over the place.

The dark age of the NBA was undoubtedly the late 90s and early 2000s. It devolved into a snails pace entirely around not just ISO players, but ISO, clear out everyone so I can shoot my 40% jumper players. The league also had its least talent at any time in the modern era.

Scoring was in the crapper... and not because of brilliant defense, the league's ratings were in the toilet.

THAT was the dark ages.

 

[Covert Rain]

Analytics is by far the most important tool and reliable tool and Charles Barkley would not understand that.

Gross exaggeration. Scouting is just as important. That's why they interview, talk to people players play with, talk to coaches etc. Many guys can never put up the numbers they put up in college for example when they go to the NBA. If it was all about numbers every team drafting in the lottery would get their man. We know that doesn't happen. In sports, plenty of examples of guys without big numbers who were ignored until later rounds that made a career out of it. There are guys in the NBA who put up big numbers but have been perennial losers or chemistry killers. If you trade or bring in free agents based solely on statistics....good luck with that.

It's not "by far the most important" and even though I don't agree with Barkley he still had a point even if he took it too far. I am actually happy to see the Suns in the middle of the pack. That says balance to me. If you want to argue it should be a bit higher...OK. I like stats and believe they do matter.

I don't think for one second Barkley really thinks that stats are 100% useless. He uses them on a nightly basis when he talks about teams, standing and predictions. I have heard him reference them on several occasions. Barkley is doing what he always does...he makes outrageous statements for dramatic effect. The fact he got under your skin enough for you to keep talking about him says...."mission accomplished".

 

[AzStevenCal]

Gross exaggeration. Scouting is just as important. That's why they interview, talk to people players play with, talk to coaches etc. Many guys can never put up the numbers they put up in college for example when they go to the NBA. If it was all about numbers every team drafting in the lottery would get their man. We know that doesn't happen. In sports, plenty of examples of guys without big numbers who were ignored until later rounds that made a career out of it. There are guys in the NBA who put up big numbers but have been perennial losers or chemistry killers. If you trade or bring in free agents based solely on statistics....good luck with that.

It's not "by far the most important" and even though I don't agree with Barkley he still had a point even if he took it too far. I am actually happy to see the Suns in the middle of the pack. That says balance to me. If you want to argue it should be a bit higher...OK. I like stats and believe they do matter.

I don't think for one second Barkley really thinks that stats are 100% useless. He uses them on a nightly basis when he talks about teams, standing and predictions. I have heard him reference them on several occasions. Barkley is doing what he always does...he makes outrageous statements for dramatic effect. The fact he got under your skin enough for you to keep talking about him says...."mission accomplished".

I agree it's not all about the numbers but Barkley really tried to make them irrelevant. I watch a lot of basketball and am by no means a numbers person but I'm not sure that analytics aren't the single most important tool.

Also, this wasn't Barkley getting under someone's skin. He made an outrageous comment (one based on ignorance and nothing else) and was called on it. To defend himself he took his stupidity to a whole new level. There is really no way to defend what he said IMO. Even his fellow TNT'ers were clearly embarrassed when he tried to talk and laugh his way out of it.

Steve

 

[Covert Rain]

I agree it's not all about the numbers but Barkley really tried to make them irrelevant. I watch a lot of basketball and am by no means a numbers person but I'm not sure that analytics aren't the single most important tool.

Also, this wasn't Barkley getting under someone's skin. He made an outrageous comment (one based on ignorance and nothing else) and was called on it. To defend himself he took his stupidity to a whole new level. There is really no way to defend what he said IMO. Even his fellow TNT'ers were clearly embarrassed when he tried to talk and laugh his way out of it.

Steve

Actually Kenny Smith halfway agreed with him as well and gave a very good example. So, there is something to what he said. I don't think anybody (including himself) really believes they are irrelevant.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Actually Kenny Smith halfway agreed with him as well and gave a very good example. So, there is something to what he said. I don't think anybody (including himself) really believes they are irrelevant.

We're not talking about the same conversation. I'm talking about the conversation where he called Morey and everyone else that uses stats a loser that couldn't get the girls in high school. Sure, he has gradually backed away from his initial idiocy but he had little choice.

Steve

 

[Covert Rain]

We're not talking about the same conversation. I'm talking about the conversation where he called Morey and everyone else that uses stats a loser that couldn't get the girls in high school. Sure, he has gradually backed away from his initial idiocy but he had little choice.

Steve

I only had watched the one clip?!? It was the same conversation I think. Kenny brought up the example of when he started shooting 3's to agree with Chuck that stats are sometimes misleading.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I only had watched the one clip?!? It was the same conversation I think. Kenny brought up the example of when he started shooting 3's to agree with Chuck that stats are sometimes misleading.

I don't know what to tell you. Chuck's point was not that stats are sometimes misleading, no one on the planet would contest that point. And he was nowhere close to making that point. He started all this by saying that Phoenix and Houston were the 2 worst defensive teams in the NBA (ignoring that Houston's best defender was injured). He got called on the "2 worst" and later changed it to 2 worst defensive playoff teams but his comments led to Morey firing back. Anyway, here's some of what Barkley said:

“Just because you’ve got good stats doesn’t mean you’re a good team defensively. They’re not a good defensive team. Give up 118 points – no good team gives up 118 points.”

“I’m not worried about Daryl Morey. He’s one of those idiots who believe in analytics.”

“I’ve always believed analytics was crap, and you know I never mention the Rockets as a legitimate contender, because they’re not. Listen, I wouldn’t know Daryl Morey if he walked in this room right now.”

“Analytics don’t work at all. It’s just some crap some people who are really smart made up to try to get in the game because they had no talent.”

“Analytics don’t work. What analytics did the Miami Heat? What analytics did the Bulls have? What analytics do the Spurs have? They have the best players. They have coaching staffs who make players better.”

“The Rockets sucked for a long. So, they went out and paid James Harden a lot of money. They got better. Then, they went out and got Dwight Howard. They get better.”

“The NBA is about talent. All these guys who run these organizations who talk about analytics, they have one thing in common. They’re a bunch of guys who ain’t never played the game, and they never got the girls in high school, and they just want to get in the game.”

“Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen; Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Ginobili and Kawhi Leonard – it has nothing to do with analytics. And I think when they put Chris Bosh, Dwyane Wade and LeBron James together, it had nothing to do with analytics. Give me a break”

Steve

 

[Covert Rain]

I don't know what to tell you. Chuck's point was not that stats are sometimes misleading, no one on the planet would contest that point. And he was nowhere close to making that point. He started all this by saying that Phoenix and Houston were the 2 worst defensive teams in the NBA (ignoring that Houston's best defender was injured). He got called on the "2 worst" and later changed it to 2 worst defensive playoff teams but his comments led to Morey firing back. Anyway, here's some of what Barkley said:Steve

Actually he was trying to make several points by making an over the top statement about stats. His real point was that the players themselves are more important that a stat line. Yes, he didn't say sometimes but the fact they ARE crap sometimes give some credence to what he says.

If you have two players... say...Melo and someone like Duncan. They both through their career put up good stats. If you just looked at stats you might be happy with either strictly looking at stats.

So yes his point wasn't sometimes but his point was that the players are more important than a stat line. A stat line that would ignore chemistry issues, selfishness and other x-factors. He is right on the money on that part no matter how ridiculous his statements were to make the point.

P.S. I did rewatch it. Kenny did in fact say that there is "something" to analytics but acknowledge Charles point that they can be misleading by talking about the change in his game (shooting 3's).

 

[slinslin]

Tim Duncan's advanced stats are in a different galaxy compared to Melo. What a terrible example.

 

[Covert Rain]

Tim Duncan's advanced stats are in a different galaxy compared to Melo. What a terrible example.

Not a terrible example. It wasn't meant to be a complete player by player comparison. Only that they are two players in the league who have put up very sizable numbers but only one is considered a winner.

There are tons of examples.

 

[sunsfan88]

Lakers HC on analytics:

https://twitter.com/billoram/status/570764951578488832

https://twitter.com/billoram/status/570766078655074304

https://twitter.com/billoram/status/570774383397982208

 

[sunsfan88]

https://twitter.com/BrettEP/status/571330540273594368

https://twitter.com/BrettEP/status/571332092795228161