Fans deserve share of blame for melee

[azdad1978]

Paola Boivin
The Arizona Republic
Nov. 20, 2004 12:00 AM

Two years ago, Milwaukee pitcher Valerio de los Santos was warming up in the Wrigley Field bullpen when a fan threw a dead bird at him.

De los Santos turned to the fan, pointed at the bird and said, "This is what you're going to look like when I see you after the game."

The birds have turned into bottles.


The finger-pointing has turned into right hooks.

Civility at sporting venues has disappeared along with the wishbone offense and the underhand free throw.

Should we be surprised that sporting events are turning into heavyweight title fights, with fans in one corner and players in another? Should we be shocked that a slugfest between players at The Palace in Auburn Hills, Mich., moved into the stands after fans started disposing of their drinks on players? Should we be blown away that Indiana's Ron Artest was in the middle of it?

No, no and no.

Discontent between athletes and fans has festered for years. We live in an era when athletes' failures are available to see on high-definition TV. We know how many assists Damon Stoudamire has, not to mention how many times he's been arrested on drug charges.

We read about the shoe deals and the contract holdouts and Artest needing a little break to make a rap album, and it clouds our memories of the great shots, the no-look passes and the gutsy, come-from-behind victories.

"Man, there are going to be some lawsuits," Suns forward Quentin Richardson said after watching the brawl on TV. "You don't think some of those fans aren't going to want some NBA money?"

We see players dumped by teams for bad behavior and quickly courted by others. Two seasons ago, Seattle cut Ruben Patterson after he pleaded guilty to assault charges. Portland signed him immediately. The NBA: It's Fan-tastic. It's Thug-tastic.

As fans, we are troubled by bad behavior, but we are also inflexible and judgmental. We pretend to hate the bling and bravado, but we dismiss the San Antonio Spurs for being boring.

It's a shame this story line will overshadow better ones, like the one happening in America West Arena, where the Suns proved Friday that there is room for unselfishness in the league.

No one was talking about that after an impressive 107-102 victory over the Los Angeles Lakers. Suns players were crowded around the TV in the locker room, yelling at the ESPN highlights of the brawl as if they were watching a cockfight in the back room of a bar.

They didn't support what the players did, but they could understand how it happened.

"No doubt about it," forward Amaré Stoudemire said. "Fans should love the game no matter what side of the court you're on and what team you're representing. It wasn't good on the fans' behalf."

The incident escalated out of hand while Artest lay on his back on the scorer's table. It was ugly early, after he fouled Ben Wallace and Wallace retaliated, but it was made worse when Artest was struck by a cup thrown from the stands. He was hot already, and that made him livid. He charged into the stands, throwing punches as he climbed.



The fans have to share the blame in this one. When did we begin feeling that we have an inalienable right to behave poorly at sporting events? We don't just boo, we swear. We don't leave early in disgust, we run onto the field and tackle innocent coaches.

We have become a society of entitlement, and that goes for both sides. It's ruining all the fun.

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/columns/articles/1120boivin1120.html

 

[Joe Mama]

Sure, if you want to dole out the blame is certainly a good part of the pillows on the fans. However, it doesn't really matter if they are unruly. Whether you're a basketball player or just some guy on the street you cannot attack somebody with a throw a beer in a plastic cup at you. It is assault plain and simple. It's especially a case of assault when you attack the wrong guy. Then Stephen Jackson started wailing on some Pacers fan who was just trying to break it up. I heard commentators saying he was just trying to defend his teammate. BS, once the flight started between the Pistons you could see that he was looking for someone to punch.

I would suspend Ben Wallace for 5-10 games. The media is saying that Artest's foul was a hard one. It wasn't. We see foul's harder than that in every game we watch. 5-10 games is still harsh, but sometimes the punishment needs to reflect the results of the action.

Ron Artest, Stephen Jackson, and Jermaine O'Neal should be suspended for months if not for the entire season. All three of them will be sued, and they should be. These ESPN commentators are flat out ridiculous. They are placing almost the entire blame on the fans. They are trying to justify the players actions by saying that we don't know what sort of things the players are subjected to all game long. Who the hell cares? Have these guys ever heard of the saying, "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me."

Joe Mama

 

[sly fly]

I'm with you on this, Joe.

I can't believe how some people are riding the jock straps of Artest, Jackson, and O'Neal.

Sure, I'll just attack anybody. Doesn't matter WHO threw the plastic cup. I'm just going to give somebody a beat down.

All 3 should be suspended for the year.

The kid in the stands just won the lottery. In fact, he may own the Pacers after this is said and done.

 

[Toro]

The guys talking on ESPN were a joke!

Quote "the players had a lot of adrenaline going" or "the fan started it".

They ESPN guys were trying to justify why the players were throwing punches and going into the stands. My wife was going nuts as we listened to them try to back up the players stance.

Hey ESPN, stop trying to **** the players off! Tell both sides and try to hide your loyalty to the pro athlete.

 

[slinslin]

I don't think Artest should be suspended THAT long.

Unlike O'Neal and Jackson he had real reasons. First he got shoved in the face by Ben Wallace and restrained himself, lays down, Ben Wallace throws a sweat band at him, Artest restrains himself again and lays down until someone hits the guy with a full beer in the head.

I didn't see him punching anyone in the stands. He didn't punch anyone until those 2 fans in the end came up to him on the court.

Ben Wallace should be suspended as long as Artest.

I didn't see Jermaine O'Neal getting hit by a steel chair but his punch was bad.

 

[Mike Olbinski]

The first guy Steven Jackson hit was the SECOND guy who gave Artest a facefull of beer...

He was NOT just looking for someone to deck...how could you guys miss that?

Anyways, year, Artest maybe shouldn't have run up there, but once he did, what ensued was justified...fans hitting players from behind, etc...

Mike

 

[Mike Olbinski]

I didn't see Jermaine O'Neal getting hit by a steel chair but his punch was bad.

Again, that fan came onto THEIR court where they aren't allowed and started something...hitting those two morons was COMPLETELY within their rights...they had to defend themselves...it looked to them like they were being attacked from all sides...

Mike

 

[scotsman13]

late last night they run the pistons vs. pacers game on one of the espn channels. i watched the game looking for the fight from start to the end. i'll tell you what this fight didnt start with the fans it started between the players early on. starting early on there were fouls that should have been enough to get someone kicked out of they had been playing in a western conf game. but you let that type of play build up for the whole game and what do you get? fans feeling that the other team is trying to hurt their team and that the refs werent calling the game fair, players whos emotions are so high from being beat on all night that they are ready to pop and then you add in the beer and it is almost shocking that this hasnt happened before.


back a couple years ago when the jazz faced the bulls for the title. jazz fans were throwing coins at the bulls players. not this is the nice little utah with all of its mormons. this wasnt from just one fan but a number of them.


i dont know what is going to happen as far as players go but i think that it will be very heavy. what i do think is going to happen is how the games are going to be called by the refs. i think they are going to call a lot more fouls. i think that the nba is going to tell the refs they dont care if a whole team fouls out just call the games, call the hand checking, call the moving picks call every hard foul as a flagerant.

 

[George O'Brien]

There was certainly enough blame to go around. Clearly if a player gets suspended for hitting another player, hitting a fan should be a more serious penalty because of the relative size and strength involved.

The Piston's organization should be hit as well. It seems pretty obvious that that these fans were drunk and they did nothing to prevent them from drinking too much. Also, their security people were no where to be found.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Jim Gray had the the police chief/sargent guy on the court after it had been cleared out. He asked if he thought it was self defense if someone throws a bottle or chair at you.

The officer basically said the law permits you to retaliate if feel threatend.

Ron Artest did NOT punch the first guy. He threw him on the ground, and when the guy said it wasn't him he got off of him. The first punches thrown were from the guy who threw the cup, and they were to shots to the back of the head. At that point, Artest is free from the law in the fight. J. Oneal didn't appear to punch anyone until he was in the middle getting hit.

Jackson can't really claim self defense because he hit someone before he was attacked. Although he could claim he felt unsafe because of all the other punches being thrown.

Whether you're a basketball player or just some guy on the street you cannot attack somebody with a throw a beer in a plastic cup at you.

I disagree. If I am at a party and some idiot purposely throws a cup of beer at me, I am getting in his face. I don't think a single person around the situation would fault me for it either.

Have these guys ever heard of the saying, "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me."

But Joe, it only got heated when the "sticks and stones" came out. Artest was just fine tuning out the yells while he was on the scorers table.

 

[D-Dogg]

Then Stephen Jackson started wailing on some Pacers fan who was just trying to break it up.

Nope, Jackson popped the dude who JUST THEN tossed his whole beer in Artest's face as he was punching the first guy. Watch the video...there is a huge splash by the guy, then Jackson cold-***** him.

 

[Chaplin]

Remember, the throwing of the cup can also be considered assault as well--it certainly probably can't debilitate someone, but it is assault anyway.

 

[Chaz]

Remember, the throwing of the cup can also be considered assault as well--it certainly probably can't debilitate someone, but it is assault anyway.

You're right Chap it is considered assault.

So what is the proper response in a 'civilized' society or even a professional sporting event?

Commit assault and battery!

 

[Joe Mama]

I don't think Artest should be suspended THAT long.

Unlike O'Neal and Jackson he had real reasons. First he got shoved in the face by Ben Wallace and restrained himself, lays down, Ben Wallace throws a sweat band at him, Artest restrains himself again and lays down until someone hits the guy with a full beer in the head.

I didn't see him punching anyone in the stands. He didn't punch anyone until those 2 fans in the end came up to him on the court.

Ben Wallace should be suspended as long as Artest.

I didn't see Jermaine O'Neal getting hit by a steel chair but his punch was bad.

Artest should definitely be suspended for a long time. What some of you guys and ESPN gametime guys fail to realize or acknowledge is that the law does not allow you to attack somebody because they throw a beer on you. Artest jumped several rows up into the fans and attacked the wrong person. Given his track record and his actions last night he should be penalized at least as severely as Latrell Sprewell was for choking PJ Carlesimo.

The first guy Steven Jackson hit was the SECOND guy who gave Artest a facefull of beer...

He was NOT just looking for someone to deck...how could you guys miss that?

Anyways, year, Artest maybe shouldn't have run up there, but once he did, what ensued was justified...fans hitting players from behind, etc...

Mike

I'll have to watch that again, but when I saw was Steven Jackson run up into the stands and immediately attack someone. And frankly Jackson should have tried to pull Ron Artest out of the fans. He certainly should have gone up there throwing punches on fans for throwing beer. He shouldn't have been up there in the first place. To me a didn't look like he was trying to protect himself or his teammate. It looked like he was trying to get a piece of the action.

Again, that fan came onto THEIR court where they aren't allowed and started something...hitting those two morons was COMPLETELY within their rights...they had to defend themselves...it looked to them like they were being attacked from all sides...

Mike

Mike, you are off your rocker today. First of all, it isn't THEIR court. It wasn't their personal property that they were trying to defend. Secondly, it started because Artest went up into the fans not because the fans rushed the court. And no, it isn't even close to being within their rights to start punching people of the court. If the Pacers were worried about protecting themselves they should have gone to the locker room.

The fat guy that Ron Artest punched on the basketball court didn't even have his hands up or anything. Artest could have easily walked away from him. Instead he walked up and punched the guy. Jermaine O'Neal ran up and sucker punch a guy that was being held by two people. Even if you forget the legal justification for striking someone that was obviously lacking, that was just a complete cheap, move by O'Neal.

Look, I understand why everybody gets jacked up about this stuff. I can understand how adrenaline takes over when you are in a situation like the players were last night. I've been in more than one situation like that before. I've done things like several of those players were doing. I understand what they were doing and where they were coming from, but I also understand it is wrong.

 

[Chaplin]

Artest should definitely be suspended for a long time. What some of you guys and ESPN gametime guys fail to realize or acknowledge is that the law does not allow you to attack somebody because they throw a beer on you. Artest jumped several rows up into the fans and attacked the wrong person. Given his track record and his actions last night he should be penalized at least as severely as Latrell Sprewell was for choking PJ Carlesimo.

You understand that Artest was assaulted, right?

 

[schutd]

You understand that Artest was assaulted, right?

Irrelevant. The person who assaulted him is then subject to being judged by the law. You understand that, right?

 

[Joe Mama]

You understand that Artest was assaulted, right?

Yes, he was assaulted. He was assaulted by some beer and a plastic cup that landed on his chest, but you seem to be insinuating that this insults somehow justifies him assaulting someone else. In fact even if he hadn't assaulted the man who actually threw the beer at him he wasn't even close to acting in self-defense.

Joe Mama

 

[Toro]

It was plastic cup!!!

Athletes are too cocky and arrogante.

 

[Chaplin]

I'm just saying, legally, Ron Artest was assaulted--and it will be up to the lawyers to determine if that assault warrented retaliation under the law. I'm not 100% supporting the players, but I'm also not coddling the idiot fans either. Artest said last night that he thought it might have been a bottle... I don't know if that's true, or how that is possible, but if he DID think that, it becomes a whole different story, because unlike a plastic cup, a bottle CAN cause damage.

I think Artest is a punk and should not have gone into the stands, and like I said, the thing I'm most worried about is what changes will be made to the game itself and it's presentation that will affect the way we all watch and enjoy basketball games.

 

[Chaplin]

Irrelevant. The person who assaulted him is then subject to being judged by the law. You understand that, right?

Again, it's about how the law is interpreted about self-defense and retaliation--nothing that happened in that fight is irrelevant.

 

[schutd]

I'm just saying, legally, Ron Artest was assaulted--and it will be up to the lawyers to determine if that assault warrented retaliation under the law. I'm not 100% supporting the players, but I'm also not coddling the idiot fans either. Artest said last night that he thought it might have been a bottle... I don't know if that's true, or how that is possible, but if he DID think that, it becomes a whole different story, because unlike a plastic cup, a bottle CAN cause damage.

I think Artest is a punk and should not have gone into the stands, and like I said, the thing I'm most worried about is what changes will be made to the game itself and it's presentation that will affect the way we all watch and enjoy basketball games.

I dont think glass bottles have been sold at sporting events since..... when? 1980-something?

 

[Chaplin]

I dont think glass bottles have been sold at sporting events since..... when? 1980-something?

Nobody has claimed that Artest is the smartest guy in the world--there's no law against being stupid.

 

[Joe Mama]

I'm just saying, legally, Ron Artest was assaulted--and it will be up to the lawyers to determine if that assault warrented retaliation under the law. I'm not 100% supporting the players, but I'm also not coddling the idiot fans either. Artest said last night that he thought it might have been a bottle... I don't know if that's true, or how that is possible, but if he DID think that, it becomes a whole different story, because unlike a plastic cup, a bottle CAN cause damage.

I think Artest is a punk and should not have gone into the stands, and like I said, the thing I'm most worried about is what changes will be made to the game itself and it's presentation that will affect the way we all watch and enjoy basketball games.

Great post, Chap. I know that I've been harping on the players for their involvement, but I definitely do think the fans were out of line. I'm just glad it wasn't Phoenix because I would have been seriously embarrassed. I do think if they can figure out which fans were involved they should be charged and have their ticket rights revoked.

I'm also worried about how this might change the game itself. Actually, as someone else noted in this thread or another one earlier it might help with the way the actual game is called. I know I have been much happier with the game this season since the officials started calling things tighter. Sure, they have let up at times, but who could have imagined a Pacers/Pistons game last season with a team scoring 97 points?

I just hope they don't go overboard with security and separating the fans from the players now.

Joe Mama

 

[schutd]

Nobody has claimed that Artest is the smartest guy in the world--there's no law against being stupid.

WELL THERE SHOULD BE!

 

[Chaplin]

WELL THERE SHOULD BE!