Ford/Simmons on Shaq/Marion deal

[WuRaider]

Ford: Yeah, if Bayless is on the board, you take him and run. The Pacers need something out of their backcourt besides Mike Dunleavy taking jump shots. Bayless will penetrate, pull up for shots and even play a little point.
We keep reading Jermaine O'Neal is on the block (though I'm not feeling T.J. Ford). What is the best possible deal you can get for him? I was stunned the Heat got Shawn Marion for an overweight, 35-year-old Shaquille O'Neal. Could the Pacers do even better?

Simmons: You're baiting me again. First of all, they took Marcus Banks' awful contract in the deal, which you neglected to mention. Second, the Suns could have absolutely beaten the Spurs in Round 1 (how does that series turn out if Duncan doesn't make the Miracle 3?), and for all we know, they may have been the best team in the West -- after the El Foldo that the Lakers pulled in the Finals. Shaq at least brings some stuff to the table; Jermaine hasn't been relevant as a basketball player in three years. I can't imagine that Bryan Colangelo would be dumb enough to deal for him. I just think O'Neal is done -- he's like Antoine Walker to me, a guy who is 31 going on 45.



Ford: What? You liked the Shaq deal? Oh, that's right.
So … the Suns sign Marcus Banks to a ridiculous deal and then you praise them a year later for finding someone else to take it off their hands? Even when it cost them Marion, their best defender? (Didn't you say defense wins championships?)
Shaq brought the buffet to the table, but that's it. He was done. Finished. The Suns had the best record in the West before the trade. (And they would've been in the Finals the year before if the suspensions hadn't worked against them.) I think the Suns, not the Lakers, would've been in the Finals versus the Celtics without the trade. Boston probably beats them, but they would've competed more than the Lakers. Honestly, the Suns trading away Marion for Shaq was almost as big a gift to the Lakers' title hopes as Pau Gasol.


Simmons: So you're telling me that Shawn Marion -- an enigmatic head case who was legitimately happy to leave Steve Nash and the top team in the Western Conference so he could play with Ricky Davis and Mark Blount on the worst team in the league -- now would have swung the 2008 playoffs? I'll take my chances with Shaq, thanks.


Ford: Yeah, I'm saying that. Marion can play. Shaq can't.
I'm not denying the head case charge. Nor the selfishness one. But Marion defended the other team's best player and gave the Suns a fighting chance. I know Phoenix was sick of him, but the Suns should've waited until the summer and gotten more.


Simmons: Keep this up and Shaq's next freestyle is gonna be called, "Hey, Chad, Tell Me How My A-- Tastes."



Ford: That is the sickest thing I've ever read. I can't believe you wrote that. And by the way, like candy.



Simmons: Come on, that joke was sitting there for the last 30 minutes! Plus, we needed to have at least one moment that prompted an emergency conference call with the ESPN.com editors. I have no regrets.



http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/columns/story?page=DraftDebate-080624

 

[green machine]

Ford thinks the Suns win the West if they don't make the trade? Really? I mean, they were doing so well against the conference's elite, I guess it would make sense.

 

[Irish]

I don't know why we have two threads on this, so excuse me for repeating myself:

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/f7/is-shaq-a-cancer-114407.html

When the Suns traded Marion for Shaq, the Suns had a very good overall schedule, but were just awful against playoff Western Conference teams.

Once Shaq was moved back to the post and GG was added, the Suns finished the regular season with a recored of 15 wins and 5 losses.

During the Shaq period Of the wins, only two were to Eastern Conference teams with 13 in the West. Of those losses, two were to Detroit and Boston. The remaining with 3 in the West. This means that Suns finished out their Western conference schedule 13 and 3 in the West or 81.25%


Overall, the Suns had a fairly weak conference record:

Lakers 37-15
Hornets 34-18
Spurs 33-19
Jazz 33-19
Rockets 33-19
Dallas 33-19
Nuggets 31-21
Suns 31-21

The last 20 games were 24.4% of the season, but generated 39.4% of the conference wins.

As of the last game Marion played, the Suns were 34 and 14. But they had 20 of the 48 were against Eastern conference teams. Of the other 28 games against Western teams, the Suns were 17 and 11. Only three of their losses were in the East. In the West, the Suns averaged 60.7%.

If the Suns averaged 60.7% of the last 16 Western Confernce games, they would have won 9.7 wins rather than 13, just barely ahead of Dallas.

In any case, the regular season record does not support the notion that adding Shaq made the team dramatically worse than they were before. As it is, it is not like Marion has this great reputation for playing extremely well in the playoffs when the game slows down.

 

[Joe Mama]

Chad Ford is an idiot. we can argue all day about whether the Shaquille O'Neal trade was a good one for the next two years, but nobody who truly follows this team should be arguing that they would have had a better shot at the championship without the trade.

As Irish pointed out the Phoenix Suns had the weakest schedule through the first half of the season and the most difficult schedule in the NBA after the All-Star break. Everybody says the Phoenix Suns records suffered while they were adjusting to Shaquille O'Neal, but that was a difficult stretch with or without the trade. I'm not sure they would have fared much better had they stayed with Shawn Marion. I definitely don't think they would have done as well down the stretch.

I hope I never hear Shaquille O'Neal ask, "Chad, how does my ass taste?" However that was really funny.

Btw, I didn't have time to post something in the Jermaine O'Neal trade thread, but I agree with Bill Simmons. That is just a horrible trade for Toronto. I mean they might get lucky with Jermaine O'Neal's health, but Toronto just gave up a lot for the right to pay a broken down 42% shooting center $22 million per year for the next two years. I can understand taking a gamble, but I wouldn't do it when the odds are stacked against it working.

The Jermaine O'Neal is healthy the second half of next season and going into the playoffs, Bryan Colangelo might look like a genius. If he isn't healthy Toronto is irrelevant. I think it's debatable whether Jermaine O'Neal, when healthy, is going to provide a whole lot more to the raptors as TJ Ford, Nesterovic, and the #17. Then you throw in the very real possibility (some would say the likelihood) the Jermaine O'Neal isn't even healthy, and this is just a bad trade.

Joe

 

[tobiazz]

Btw, I didn't have time to post something in the Jermaine O'Neal trade thread, but I agree with Bill Simmons. That is just a horrible trade for Toronto. I mean they might get lucky with Jermaine O'Neal's health, but Toronto just gave up a lot for the right to pay a broken down 42% shooting center $22 million per year for the next two years. I can understand taking a gamble, but I wouldn't do it when the odds are stacked against it working.

Joe

Ford's contract lasts way longer than O'Neal's so Ford's could potentially be a bigger hindrance.

 

[elindholm]

Ford's contract lasts way longer than O'Neal's so Ford's could potentially be a bigger hindrance.

Ford's contract lasts one year longer than O'Neal's.

 

[tobiazz]

Ford's contract lasts one year longer than O'Neal's.

To some people a year is a long time! Sorry, I was thinking of Mo Williams contract which goes on for one more year than Diaw's. However, Ford's one extra year occurs during that big free agent class of Lebron et al.

 

[Joe Mama]

Btw, the disastrous trade last season was actually the Kurt Thomas deal. I was never excited about giving only draft picks to unload Thomas's salary, but I said if we got PJ Brown to replace him it would be a wash as far as last season. Of course we did not get PJ Brown. Kurt Thomas ended up going to San Antonio am being one of the deciding factors in the first round loss.

One could only hope that Sarver will think about what that trade cost the Phoenix Suns for next time he thinks about making a deal that hurts the team from a basketball standpoint in order to save money. I mean with Kurt Thomas the Phoenix Suns would have been the best team in basketball last year IMO... before or after this O'Neal trade.

Lastly, Sarver will tell everybody that he had to make that Kurt Thomas deal because of the luxury tax. But when you figure that they could have sold those first-round draft picks for $3 million apiece that reasoning doesn't really add up. On top of that the team makes about $1 million for every additional playoff game.

Ford's contract lasts way longer than O'Neal's so Ford's could potentially be a bigger hindrance.

TJ Ford has three years, around $25 million remaining on his contract.

Nesterovic has one year, $8.4 million remaining on his contract.

Jermaine O'Neal has two years, around $44 million remaining on his.

Joe Mama

 

[AtlHawksFan]

The Jermaine O'Neal is healthy the second half of next season and going into the playoffs, Bryan Colangelo might look like a genius. If he isn't healthy Toronto is irrelevant. I think it's debatable whether Jermaine O'Neal, when healthy, is going to provide a whole lot more to the raptors as TJ Ford, Nesterovic, and the #17. Then you throw in the very real possibility (some would say the likelihood) the Jermaine O'Neal isn't even healthy, and this is just a bad trade.
Joe

Man, I couldn't agree more as I thought the Pacers played much better ball without O'neal and I don't understand how anyone can think that he can can stay healthy for a full year. I'll give him credit for taking the risk but this ain't exactly the Celtics part deaux.

Of course Ford has his own injury issues but Indy does come out on top by picking up #13 - even in a weak draft.

 

[nowagimp]

Btw, the disastrous trade last season was actually the Kurt Thomas deal. I was never excited about giving only draft picks to unload Thomas's salary, but I said if we got PJ Brown to replace him it would be a wash as far as last season. Of course we did not get PJ Brown. Kurt Thomas ended up going to San Antonio am being one of the deciding factors in the first round loss.

One could only hope that Sarver will think about what that trade cost the Phoenix Suns for next time he thinks about making a deal that hurts the team from a basketball standpoint in order to save money. I mean with Kurt Thomas the Phoenix Suns would have been the best team in basketball last year IMO... before or after this O'Neal trade.

Lastly, Sarver will tell everybody that he had to make that Kurt Thomas deal because of the luxury tax. But when you figure that they could have sold those first-round draft picks for $3 million apiece that reasoning doesn't really add up. On top of that the team makes about $1 million for every additional playoff game.

Joe Mama

Yeah I would love to be a fly on the wall when sarver does his annual report to the board and tells them how the 6 million bucks in draft picks and getting bonked in the first round equals 8 million dollars saved in luxury taxes. Guys like "foam finger" know how to present the books and ignore the obvious to put things in a good light. Or in the event the board isnt stupid, they know how to blame the decisions and the results on someone else, and then jettison their a**.

And in the event someone actually someday figures out who is to blame, it must be nice to be a CEO or top level executive type that gets a hugh multimillion dollar parachute to leave after mucking things up.

 

[hafey]

To be fair the Suns saved both Thomas' season salary and luxury tax hit for a total of 16 million and would have needed 12 home playoff games to break even.

 

[nowagimp]

To be fair the Suns saved both Thomas' season salary and luxury tax hit for a total of 16 million and would have needed 12 home playoff games to break even.

True almost, -skinners salary(1.7M) plus revenues lost and or gained from being successful. I guess if you dont want to win or dont think winning impacts the bottom line in future revenues. those draft picks, if they develop into player on their rookies contracts are valuable commodities that are cheaper than free agents. Also the suns are no such a great distination now for FA's willing to take a pay cut to win. The FA's will want more money now to come here.

 

[hafey]

I mean we can argue about nickels and dimes. For instance Skinner played for the min not the 1.7 LLE and whether the Suns would've been more or less sucessful with Thomas. I think his impact is negligible as long as MikeD was coach. However an extra 8 mil saved is pretty big.

 

[Mainstreet]

To be fair the Suns saved both Thomas' season salary and luxury tax hit for a total of 16 million and would have needed 12 home playoff games to break even.

The Suns save money on almost everything they do, selling draft picks, moving contacts. etc. The Suns are also saving approximately 4 million by letting D'Antoni go and hiring Porter as the HC. Kerr it seems is more an accountant than a GM.

I literally hope and pray that Kerr will do something to prove my perception wrong. I would be the happiest man in the world if he made a great draft day move.

 

[nowagimp]

I mean we can argue about nickels and dimes. For instance Skinner played for the min not the 1.7 LLE and whether the Suns would've been more or less sucessful with Thomas. I think his impact is negligible as long as MikeD was coach. However an extra 8 mil saved is pretty big.

thomas impact when amare went down was -6% in 3 pt FG% and -6ppg allowed, and DA WAS the coach. To say the suns wouldnt have been more successful with thomas is incomprehensivble to me. He got like 9rpg AGAINST the suns in the playoffs. Without him, the spurs might not be able to rebound enough to win, and he kept shaq(and amare) in check much better than oberto did, IF you saw that. Would KT have played for the suns and DA? Every damn time a big got into foul trouble, every damn time, and he wouldnt have looked like a buffoon like skinner, there'd be no "hack a KT".

If you look up the playoff stats KT played 19.8 mins/game with the suns, and 15.8 mins last year with the spurs. DA played him 4mins more/game than POPs did. Does that make POPs a stupid coach or does that mean that oberto is better than KT? Sometimes I dont understand suns fans, no reference points at all in their judgements.

 

[nowagimp]

I mean we can argue about nickels and dimes. For instance Skinner played for the min not the 1.7 LLE and whether the Suns would've been more or less sucessful with Thomas. I think his impact is negligible as long as MikeD was coach. However an extra 8 mil saved is pretty big.

thomas impact when amare went down was -6% in 3 pt FG% and -6ppg allowed, and DA WAS the coach. To say the suns wouldnt have been more successful with thomas is incomprehensivble to me. He got like 9rpg AGAINST the suns in the playoffs. Without him, the spurs might not be able to rebound enough to win, and he kept shaq in check much bette than oberto did, IF you saw that. Would KT have played for the suns and DA? Every damn time a big got into foul trouble, every damn time, and he wouldnt have looked like a buffoon like skinner, there'd be no "hack a KT".

If you look up the playoff stats KT played 19.8 mins/game with the suns, and 15.8 mins last year with the spurs. DA played him 4mins more/game than POPs did. Does that make POPs a stupid coach or does that mean that oberto is better than KT? Sometimes I dont understand suns fans, no reference points at all in their judgements.

 

[Chaplin]

I mean we can argue about nickels and dimes. For instance Skinner played for the min not the 1.7 LLE and whether the Suns would've been more or less sucessful with Thomas. I think his impact is negligible as long as MikeD was coach. However an extra 8 mil saved is pretty big.

You're right, 8 mil is a lot. But Kurt Thomas would have had a much larger impact in the SA series had he been on the Suns instead of Skinner. I don't see any conceivable way anyone can argue against that.