Give Marion some slack

az1965

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Gambo - Critical fans need to cut Marion some slack


May. 15, 2006 08:45 AM


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Love him or hate him, no professional athlete in this town creates more discussion about the caliber and consistency of his play than Shawn Marion come playoff time. At times he is the hero, others the goat. That was clearly evident this weekend when he willed the Suns to victory on Friday and was all but non-existent on Sunday. Depending on which day of the week it is in May, Suns fans would either consider Marion untouchable or be willing to deal him for a bag of balls.

Win or lose, it is time for this town to take a stand on the Matrix. Great players are under the microscope 24/7, and it's easy to forget that Marion is truly one of the greatest players to ever wear a Suns uniform and will someday have a spot in the Suns' Ring of Honor.

Marion may have his faults and there are games in which he struggles with his shot, but night in and night out, he brings everything he has to the court and leaves nothing behind. On Friday night Marion proved his worth. Just two days after one of his worst post-season performances (13 points and 6 rebounds), Marion responded by dominating the Los Angeles Clippers at both ends of the court. His 32-point, 19-rebound, 4-steal performance was a thing of beauty, and his defense on Sam Cassell took the veteran point guard completely out of the game. Cassell was more of a non-factor in Game 3 than Marion has been in any of the games he has struggled.

And when the Suns needed big baskets Friday night, it was Marion to the rescue. His three-pointer with 2:53 left tied the score at 85 and his three-point play with 49.2 seconds left put Phoenix up, 92-86.

How Marion can go from the best player on the court one night to barely noticeable the next is beyond comprehension. But it's not because of lack of effort. Marion plays hard every game, but on Sunday the results just weren't there (14 points, 10 rebounds). If any word could describe Marion in the playoffs, it is inconsistent. He has his good and bad games, and at times his shot looks like Rick Ankiel trying to find the strike zone. He has his deficiencies - he can't create his own shot. And maybe it is because of those inconsistencies that Marion is not considered a superstar in this league.

But his pluses far outweigh any minuses. Marion is a great defender, a great slasher, a great rebounder, a great dunker, a good three-point shooter and a great team player. He is also a non-complainer, content with his role and not one to whine over petty jealousy of other players. Marion has talked about getting more respect, and who could blame him when at least three times per year he hears his name in trade rumors.

After every poor post-season performance talk radio lines are lit with the Marion-to-the-Timberwolves-for-Kevin-Garnett rumors.

What fans need to realize is, the longer Marion stays in a Suns uniform the better. With Amare Stoudemire and Kurt Thomas out of the lineup, Marion has had more pressure on him than ever to defend the bigs and rebound the basketball. He has done so without complaining and done a very good job.

It seems too easy to criticize Marion when the Suns don't play well. A team devastated by injuries, the Suns need every player clicking on all cylinders to be at their best and win playoff games. And when they aren't, it seems Marion's game is picked apart more than anyone else's. And that could be because Marion is so valuable to the Suns that when he's not on, the team can't overcome his struggles.

In the first-round against the Los Angeles Lakers, Marion was held in check early by the Lakers as he struggled with the length of both Lamar Odom and Kwame Brown. After a 19-point, 7-rebound effort in a Game 1 win, he shot 5-for-15 from the field and had just 13 points and 9 rebounds in the Game 2 loss. He had only 7 rebounds in the Game 3 loss. But as the series went longer Marion got better. And in the final four games he was back to being a key factor in helping the Suns advance. He had 20 points and 12 rebounds in Game 4; 21 points and 9 rebounds in Game 5; 20 points and 12 rebounds in Game 6 and chipped in 14 points and 10 rebounds in the Game 7 blowout.

Against the Clippers, Marion struggled - as did everyone else - in Game 2 as he missed four of his first five shots and finished with just 13 points and six rebounds. But Marion had a major impact on the Game 1 win with 20 points and 15 boards and the monster Game 3.

Those who would like to see Marion go say he disappears in the playoffs. But this season, he is averaging 19.2 points and 10.6 rebounds in the playoffs, similar numbers to what he averaged in the regular season (21.8 points, and 11.8 rebounds). In past playoff series, Marion has had to sacrifice his offensive game to concentrate on shutting down the opponents' top scorers - see Dirk Nowitzki. And on nights when he has to be a stopper he sometimes struggles with his offensive game.

So maybe it's time we cut Marion some slack. There is not a team in the league that wouldn't want him on their roster and he is one of the few players who is earning every penning of his contract.

So be careful what you wish for when you are in the trade-Marion corner. The grass isn't always greener on the other side. Sometimes you don't appreciate what you have until it's gone. And if Marion was ever to leave, fans here would learn that rather quickly.

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Joe Mama

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The inaccuracies, over statements, and flat out BS in this article are too numerous to point out individually. Everybody knows that I'm all for trading Shawn Marion for Kevin Garnett, but that has more to do with my appreciation for KG than my underappreciation for Shawn Marion. I agree with Gambo that fans can be too hard on Marion. He's a complementary player. He can not be counted on to help carry a team during a playoff series against a good team. His performances this postseason without Kurt Thomas and Amare Stoudemire in the rotation should not surprise anyone.

There is one more thing that Gambo nails in this article. Shawn Marion almost always plays his heart out. This is the argument I made in the first round. Shawn Marion looks great during the regular season because he is playing harder than anyone else. Once opponents stepped up their efforts in the postseason to match Shawn Marion's effort he doesn't look as great.

Joe
 

boisesuns

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"He is also a non-complainer, content with his role and not one to whine over petty jealousy of other players"

I'm not sure I agree with this part.
 

AzKarl

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Shawn should never feel underappreciated

He gets his recognition every time he cashes those huge paychecks. He does earn every penny with his effort and versatility but frankly the nobody recognizes me stuff is getting old.
 

nowagimp

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I dont think much of gambo, but I wonder if many fans appreciate how few "go to" guys really are good defenders. I'm not talking about potential, but actions. If you just look at the all defensive team minus Kobe, who I think shouldnt be on there, I like prince better on D. Ben Wallace, Bruce Bowen, AK47, Artest, Kidd, Kobe(tie). Only kobe is a "go to" guy. Marion is just as or more consistent offensively as these guys.
 
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Gaddabout

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If Shawn were making $8 mil to $10 mil a season, no one would be complaining much about his playoff performance. Guys making $14 mil per should be affecting every game -- no matter where he plays.
 
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haverford

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az1965 said:
Gambo - Critical fans need to cut Marion some slack


May. 15, 2006 08:45 AM


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Love him or hate him, no professional athlete in this town creates more discussion about the caliber and consistency of his play than Shawn Marion come playoff time. At times he is the hero, others the goat. That was clearly evident this weekend when he willed the Suns to victory on Friday and was all but non-existent on Sunday. Depending on which day of the week it is in May, Suns fans would either consider Marion untouchable or be willing to deal him for a bag of balls.

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Um, the correct cliche is "dumb as a bag of hammers." I saw you reaching for it--"bag of balls" sounds odd but not original, if a little unsettling--you almost found the "right" stock phrase. Please don't conflate cliches, Gambo. Your writing is bad enough.....
 

Joe Mama

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nowagimp said:
I dont think much of gambo, but I wonder if many fans appreciate how few "go to" guys really are good defenders. I'm not talking about potential, but actions. If you just look at the all defensive team minus Kobe, who I think shouldnt be on there, I like prince better on D. Ben Wallace, Bruce Bowen, AK47, Artest, Kidd, Kobe(tie). Only kobe is a "go to" guy. Marion is just as or more consistent offensively as these guys.

was Shawn Marion on either of these NBA defensive teams? please don't try to put Shawn Marion in the same class as Ben Wallace, Bruce Bowen, Ron Artest, or Tayshaun Prince.

By the way, Prince and Artest can both initiate their own offense. They are also making half of Shawn Marion's salary and aren't complaining about lack of respect.

Joe
 

Cheesebeef

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Joe Mama said:
was Shawn Marion on either of these NBA defensive teams? please don't try to put Shawn Marion in the same class as Ben Wallace, Bruce Bowen, Ron Artest, or Tayshaun Prince.

By the way, Prince and Artest can both initiate their own offense. They are also making half of Shawn Marion's salary and aren't complaining about lack of respect.

Joe

seriously.
 

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Joe Mama said:
was Shawn Marion on either of these NBA defensive teams? please don't try to put Shawn Marion in the same class as Ben Wallace, Bruce Bowen, Ron Artest, or Tayshaun Prince.

By the way, Prince and Artest can both initiate their own offense. They are also making half of Shawn Marion's salary and aren't complaining about lack of respect.

Joe

Amidst all the criticism you and Cheese are directing towards Shawn Marion, do you think that Prince and Artest are better players than Shawn Marion?
 

nowagimp

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Joe Mama said:
was Shawn Marion on either of these NBA defensive teams? please don't try to put Shawn Marion in the same class as Ben Wallace, Bruce Bowen, Ron Artest, or Tayshaun Prince.

By the way, Prince and Artest can both initiate their own offense. They are also making half of Shawn Marion's salary and aren't complaining about lack of respect.

Joe
On defense, I dont put shawn in the same class as those guys, though Artest is just as inconsistent on offense and ben wallace and bowen have no offensive game at all. Artest corals a whole 5 rebs a game as well. As for the pay, that will change alot soon for all except Bowen. The morale of the story is that players who achieve on defense rarely are good offensive players. If you want to call Artest a "go to guy" like everyone wants Marion to be, thats your freedom of speech, I just happen to disagree. Bowen has been getting smoked by stackhouse at crunchtime, so I dont know how good he really is. I'm betting that shawn would do better with that matchup. Ben Wallace is a great one-dimensional player who will be making about 12 mil a year next year. I really like prince, and would trade marion straight up in a heartbeat, but prince sacrifices his offensive game to do the defensive dirty work. If pistons fans held prince accountable on offense to the same degree as suns fans hold marion, he would be run out of town.
 
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Cheesebeef

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Chaplin said:
Amidst all the criticism you and Cheese are directing towards Shawn Marion, do you think that Prince and Artest are better players than Shawn Marion?

In our system, yeah, I believe Prince would be a better player than Marion, easily. The guy can finish, shoot the three, post-up, create for others and play GREAT defense against 1-4.

I also don't think it's really much a question that Artest is a better player than Marion - can create and play better defense. I think if you ask ANY GM or anyone who's not a Suns fan who'd they rather have Marion or Artest or who's better talent wise, and it would be a landslide for Artest.
 

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cheesebeef said:
In our system, yeah, I believe Prince would be a better player than Marion, easily. The guy can finish, shoot the three, post-up, create for others and play GREAT defense against 1-4.

I also don't think it's really much a question that Artest is a better player than Marion - can create and play better defense. I think if you ask ANY GM or anyone who's not a Suns fan who'd they rather have Marion or Artest or who's better talent wise, and it would be a landslide for Artest.

Wow, completely disagree on both points, even though I like both Artest and Prince.

Hmm, it's posts like this that Shawn must be responding to when he talks about disrespect. :D Seriously, though, cheese, you definitely do act like someone who hates Shawn Marion. Too bad.
 

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Chaplin said:
Wow, completely disagree on both points, even though I like both Artest and Prince.

Hmm, it's posts like this that Shawn must be responding to when he talks about disrespect. :D Seriously, though, cheese, you definitely do act like someone who hates Shawn Marion. Too bad.

Posts like those? Chap, come on man - think about this - remember that Pacers team hat won 61 games a couple years ago - they're cornerstone were Jermaine O'Neal and Ron Artest - do you really think if that team substituted Artest for Marion they would have come even clsoe to that? No - because Marion can't create, nor play D like Artest. Anyone in the league would take Artest over Marion.

As far as Prince, where am I wrong about his skills when in comparison to Marion's? Is Marion as good of a defender, ball-handler, finisher, shooter, post-up player, disrtibutor?

I don't think that I act like a guy who hates Marion - like I've said, if they can't get a Garnett, or any deal involving the number #1 pick this year, I wouldn't trade him, but he's got GLARING problems, and his mouth doesn't make it any easier to swallow them.
 

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I agree with the article. Artest isn't even close to Marion. Marion would score as many points, and Artest is almost as bad at 3's. Marion gets twice as many rebounds. Marion's defense is being underrated on this board too. He's a great defensive player and he's the only guy at his height that can rebound with and defend bigger guys. Marion blocks shots and gets steals as good or better than Artest too. Also, Prince's defense looks better because of the team he's on. Marion would look better too if he had Ben Wallace and Rasheed on his team to help him in the front court. If you would seriously put those guys ahead of Marion I am glad you are not our GM. We'd seriously be screwed. I like Artest and Prince too, but the only one that I'd want on the team other than Marion right now in a trade is Garnett.
 

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Years ago I was all for a Marion for KG trade but that time has passed. Getting KG now does nothing for helping us to retain players we already have...players like Diaw, Barbosa, TT. Diaw in particular seems to be our SF of the future and I dont want him to bought out from underneath us. Getting KG restricts our salary even more than Marion which is saying something. Not only that but KG is older and are we really getting so much more with KG at this point? KG isnt known to be a playoff performer plus Marion is coming off his best season so thier values are getting pretty close IMO.

So the long and short of it is if we trade Marion for KG but lose Diaw or Barbosa due to salary implications what are we really gaining.?
 

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cheesebeef said:
In our system, yeah, I believe Prince would be a better player than Marion, easily. The guy can finish, shoot the three, post-up, create for others and play GREAT defense against 1-4.

I also don't think it's really much a question that Artest is a better player than Marion - can create and play better defense. I think if you ask ANY GM or anyone who's not a Suns fan who'd they rather have Marion or Artest or who's better talent wise, and it would be a landslide for Artest.

You really are a hater of Shawn Marion.....!

You also are overstating some of these players. There is no doubt that Artest and Prince are good players, but go look at the stats, not just this year, all years.
Marion is expected to score more this year without Amare and it has effected his defense some, but when Amare is playing and Shawn Marion is not required to score as much, he can use more energy to play defense.

Shawn Marion is a heck of a player, and if the suns trade him because of his salary, after he is gone, I believe many people will realize just how good he was here.
 

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cheesebeef said:
In our system, yeah, I believe Prince would be a better player than Marion, easily. The guy can finish, shoot the three, post-up, create for others and play GREAT defense against 1-4.

I also don't think it's really much a question that Artest is a better player than Marion - can create and play better defense. I think if you ask ANY GM or anyone who's not a Suns fan who'd they rather have Marion or Artest or who's better talent wise, and it would be a landslide for Artest.

Artest is a CAREER 41.6% FG's shooter. He basically has had one good year with the pacers, other than that he doesnt compare to Marion at all. He may be able to create a shot, he just doeant make it very often, I guess. If the suns could make a whole team shoot 41.6 % they would be a great defense. I'll take Marion anyday as he gets more rebounds, steals blocks and shoots 7-10% better FG's. I think that Prince is very under-rated, though he has never been tested as a key contributor. Princes 47% FG's in the regular season drops to 43% career in the playoffs, and he's never scored more than 15ppg in his career. I like him as a defensive stopper and this is probably why he doesnt score so much as it takes alot of energy to guard the '2' position.
 

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sunsfn said:
You really are a hater of Shawn Marion.....!

You also are overstating some of these players. There is no doubt that Artest and Prince are good players, but go look at the stats, not just this year, all years.
Marion is expected to score more this year without Amare and it has effected his defense some, but when Amare is playing and Shawn Marion is not required to score as much, he can use more energy to play defense.

Shawn Marion is a heck of a player, and if the suns trade him because of his salary, after he is gone, I believe many people will realize just how good he was here.

see my post, obviously Marion has somehow blinded cheesebeef's logic. Artest creats his own shot at 41% FG's. Go ahead and create, but not for my team, please.
 

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sunsfn said:
but when Amare is playing and Shawn Marion is not required to score as much, he can use more energy to play defense.

Like last year? Or the year before that or the year before that when his "great" defense was mysteriously COMPLETELY IGNORED by everyone else - he's never even SNIFFED an ALL-NBA defensive team - is that because the NBA "hates" him like I apparently do? Or is it just that your blind homerism clouds your judgement? Canb't be that? Nah.

He's a great rebounder, a great garbage man and a great energy guy - there's no doubting that. But to say he's a great offensive player (which I assume to mean he can create his own shot, create shots for others, demand double teams, take people off the dribble, is a great shooter) or that he's some kind of defensive dynamo, or hell, even above average, is just homerism.

Let's just hope this is one of the two games he shows up for in this series. They gotta win tonigth and they're gonna need EVERYBODY to step it up.
 

Nasser22

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Marion is definetly an above-average defender(calling him average is just plain stupid), he's a very good defender. If YOU can't see that it shows that you are just a hater because Marion is a little inconsistant in the playoffs. He should have been on the 2nd all-defensive team the last two years and anyone can see that.
 
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pokerface

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I just want to say that I think Marion should be traded due to salary implications and inconsistant playoff performances over the years. The emergance of Diaw has given us the luxury of being able to trade Marion.


As a side note we don't know how strong Amare will come back and we need as much flexibility as possibe (financial and otherwise) to be able to address that issue.
 

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Marion is an above average defender, but I don't think he's all-league. He defends some players quite well, but others eat him up. In my opinion, he shouldn't get any bonus points for trying to defend players who are bigger than he is -- if he can't do it well, he doesn't deserve credit as a great defender.
 

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Nasser22 said:
Marion is definetly an above-average defender(calling him average is just plain stupid), he's a very good defender. If YOU can't see that it shows that you are just a hater because Marion is a little inconsistant in the playoffs. He should have been on the 2nd all-defensive team the last two years and anyone can see that.

you mean anyone except the people that VOTE for the position, right? I guess all those people are just haters too. Man, there sure are A LOT of Marion haters in the world.
 

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The people that vote for awards aren't always right as I'm sure you know. Marion isn't noticed as much as other stars. He's always overshadowed by someone. The media doesen't vote for him but the Suns fans that actually watch all his games know he is a good defender and how important he is to the team.
 

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