Grant Hill out again.........

[sunsfn]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ap-magic-hill&prov=ap&type=lgns

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Hill hopeful he can play, but prepared to sit out season

By FRED GOODALL, AP Sports Writer
September 8, 2003

AP - Sep 8, 3:27 pm EDT
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ORLANDO, Fla. (AP) -- Grant Hill's next comeback attempt will be his last.

The question the six-time NBA All-Star couldn't answer Monday, though, was when can the Orlando Magic expect him back on the court?

Hill hopes to return by February, but he conceded it might be best for him to wait until the 2004-05 season to play again on the surgically repaired left ankle.

The injury has limited to him to 46 games since signing a $93 million contract three summers ago.

``I'm prepared to do whatever it takes. If it means sitting out a year, I'll do it,'' Hill said. ``I don't want to do it. I want to play. But at the same time, if that's going to help me to further my career, then I'll do that.''

Hill suffered a stress fracture to his ankle while playing for Detroit in the 2000 playoffs. He signed with the Magic as a free agent that offseason, hoping that teaming with Tracy McGrady would lead Orlando back to the NBA Finals.

In March, he had surgery for the fourth time. Although he's confident doctors fixed the problem when they broke a bone in his heel to better align the ankle, he's not yet able to run and isn't anywhere close to being ready to test it on the court.

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Instead, he's spending hours this summer, exercising, riding a stationary bike and working out in a swimming pool at the Magic's training facility.

``I'm just staying as active as I'm allowed to be,'' Hill said.

``We're being a little bit more cautious. ... This time last year, six months after surgery, I was already on the court, working my body, trying to get ready for training camp.''

Hill played four games three seasons ago. He played 14 in 2001-02 and 29 last season when he averaged 14.5 points, 7.1 rebounds and 4.2 assists -- numbers he felt demonstrated he is still capable of performing at a high level.

If his ankle doesn't hold up in his next comeback, Hill doesn't view a fifth operation as an option.

``If I had to go through another surgery, it's just not meant to be,'' he said.

The NBA denied the Magic salary cap relief for Hill in July, rejecting the team's argument that there was no realistic way the 6-foot-8 forward can play this season. The medical exemption would have been worth about $4.9 million, enough money to pursue a potential starter.

Hill, who will earn $13.3 million this season, said he was encouraged that the findings by an independent doctor seem to suggest there's a chance he will be able resume his career sooner, rather than later.

At the same time, he was disappointed that the team was not able to seek immediate help.

``That would have been awesome,'' said Hill, who found it difficult watching the Magic lose in the playoffs last spring.

``It's not the easiest thing in the world and not something I'd wish on anybody, but I'm not looking for any sympathy,'' he said. ``It's the cards I've been dealt, and I've got to deal with it. You fall down, you pick yourself back up. That's what I'm trying to do.''

 

[SirStefan32]

Poor guy. He was such an outstanding player, and one of the few good guys in the NBA.

 

[Wally]

The biggest difference between Hardaway & Hill is that Hill isn't on the Sun's payroll. Other smaller differences are Penny's attitude (which seems to have improved) and of course, the injury itself.

I haven't checked any Orlando board, but I'd like to see how many "fans" have blasted Hill for being injured. It seems as if many on this board might be blasting Hill if he were a Phonix Sun.

 

[elindholm]

It seems as if many on this board might be blasting Hill if he were a Phonix Sun.

Uh huh. If you can't detect a major attitude difference between Hill and Hardaway (during most of his time in Phoenix), then I'm not sure what to say. Notice that the Hardaway-bashing has slowed way down now that he's not constantly bitching to the media.

 

[fordronken]

Originally posted by Wally
The biggest difference between Hardaway & Hill is that Hill isn't on the Sun's payroll. Other smaller differences are Penny's attitude (which seems to have improved) and of course, the injury itself.

I haven't checked any Orlando board, but I'd like to see how many "fans" have blasted Hill for being injured. It seems as if many on this board might be blasting Hill if he were a Phonix Sun.

Please don't start this up. People on this board have spoken very well of Penny since a few months into the past season. Also, saying that we "blasted" him for being injured is absurd. Nobody on this board ever said "What a jerk! Where does he get off having injuries!?" The ill feelings toward Penny had to do with his attitude, and misleading statements like "I'm 100 percent better," and "I feel like I could still be a dominant player in this league(or something to that effect)."

 

[SirStefan32]

Originally posted by Wally
The biggest difference between Hardaway & Hill is that Hill isn't on the Sun's payroll. Other smaller differences are Penny's attitude (which seems to have improved) and of course, the injury itself.

I haven't checked any Orlando board, but I'd like to see how many "fans" have blasted Hill for being injured. It seems as if many on this board might be blasting Hill if he were a Phonix Sun.

I disagree. Most of us have criticized Penny for his attitude. You just can not blame somebody for having a huge contract or being hurt. As soon as Penny stopped bitching to the media, and accepted his role on the team, most, if not all of us have spoken well about Hardaway.

My problem with Hill is that he is really screwing Orlando by playing a couple of games every now and then, thus screwing the Magic out of gettign a medical exemption which they could use to sign a decent player.

Stefan

 

[Chaplin]

Think about it. There hasn't been a bad word about Hardaway on this board (other than the typical lame trade threads) in months.

And everyone is right, it all boils down to his attitude, which has been stellar for quite some time now.

 

[jimjames1]

My problem with Hill is that he is really screwing Orlando by playing a couple of games every now and then, thus screwing the Magic out of gettign a medical exemption which they could use to sign a decent player.

Exactly. Hill should just wait until he's completely healed and then try to work himself slowly back into shape to the point where he can play basketball for the Orlando Magic once again.

Problem is, you see this as being cautious, and Grant Hill sees it as being cautious. Even his doctors probably view it that way, but the second one person has a differing opinion, be it in the Magic front office, or in the media, everybody starts to think that Grant Hill can be blamed for every problem the Magic has. He's lazy, they say. He's getting paid a maximum contract, he better get his soft as$ back on the court and help his team out. People lose faith in him. Instead of being Grant Hill anymore, he's just "Over-the" Hill. The Magic play alright for a stretch, and people start to question whether they even want him back at all.

You can't say that that same thing didn't happen with Penny. It's a lose-lose situation, in a sense. Sometimes in Orlando, Penny would be injured, and everybody would call him soft. To prove to everybody that he wasn't come back, even though he had a legitimate physical problem, and he wouldn't be able to play up to his full potential because of that. He'd seem slower, less energetic, and less interested, all the while because he was feeling nothing but pressure to come back. Then, in the process, he hurts himself again, and is out even longer. Had he stayed out, he would've been criticized. Had he come back sooner, while still hurt, it's just going to add to the criticism. You tell me how that works for him?

I remember him actually calling it a "lose-lose" situation for him exactly because of this, and people bashed him for saying that. That's where people the whole "bad attitude" thing. People said, "lose-lose?? You're getting payed 80 million dollars to sit on the bench and watch a team play basketball, how is that lose-lose!!?" It made him seem spoiled and self-centered. Another problem was that nobody really understood Penny's injury in Orlando, so he went to Houston to get it checked out by doctors that could help him. This merely made him seem aloof, and when people questioned where he was, the Magic front office acted as if they had no idea. They didn't support him, and in that case it seemed like it was Penny against the rest of the world. Everybody was against him, and when he looked to his team for support, he found none. Whether he's payed 65 million or 2 dollars, how is he supposed to deal with that.

 

[fordronken]

Originally posted by jimjames1
I remember him actually calling it a "lose-lose" situation for him exactly because of this, and people bashed him for saying that. That's where people the whole "bad attitude" thing. People said, "lose-lose?? You're getting payed 80 million dollars to sit on the bench and watch a team play basketball, how is that lose-lose!!?" It made him seem spoiled and self-centered. Another problem was that nobody really understood Penny's injury in Orlando, so he went to Houston to get it checked out by doctors that could help him. This merely made him seem aloof, and when people questioned where he was, the Magic front office acted as if they had no idea. They didn't support him, and in that case it seemed like it was Penny against the rest of the world. Everybody was against him, and when he looked to his team for support, he found none. Whether he's payed 65 million or 2 dollars, how is he supposed to deal with that.

For the record, people who bash him for saying it's "lose-lose" are wrong. However, he can still have had a bad attitude, even if it wasn't for that specific reason.

 

[schutd]

Originally posted by SirStefan32


My problem with Hill is that he is really screwing Orlando by playing a couple of games every now and then, thus screwing the Magic out of gettign a medical exemption which they could use to sign a decent player.

Stefan

The Magic submitted paperwork to the league for a medical exemption this season and the league denied them. Hill expressed regret that the team was not able to go get a good quality replacement for him if he decided to sit this whole season.

I dont think anyone would try do do anything different. I'd rather rather have an injured player "screw" me by working his ass off to stay in shape and in in all good faith make the best effort possible to contribute than some non competitive slacker get fat and not make any effort to earn his salary.

Hills damned if he does and damned if he doesn't, and its too bad.

 

[jbeecham]

I blame the doctor who has not fixed Hill's ankle problems after 4 seperate surgeries. He kept telling Grant that he's cleared to go back on the court and then Hil plays 4 games and is in pain again. I'm sure Hill's ankle problem isn't an easy one to diagnose, but the doctor just took away 3 years of the guys life by not getting it right the 1st time (he still may not have it fixed either).

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Originally posted by jbeecham
I blame the doctor who has not fixed Hill's ankle problems after 4 seperate surgeries. He kept telling Grant that he's cleared to go back on the court and then Hil plays 4 games and is in pain again. I'm sure Hill's ankle problem isn't an easy one to diagnose, but the doctor just took away 3 years of the guys life by not getting it right the 1st time (he still may not have it fixed either).

I think that is the most ridiculous allocation of blame I have ever heard. Both my parents (and many close family friends) are doctors, so this may hit me harder than most people, but I will try to lay this out as orderly as possible.

I personally believe that you can NEVER blame a doctor not curing a person. This is a person who dedicates at least 12 years of post high school education to helping other people, and just because they cannot fix a problem you hold them responsible. Why not hold Grant Hill responsible for injuring it in the first place. That is like blaming a firefighter for letting a house burn down instead of blaming the person who lit the fire.

IMO that is one thing that is fundamentally wrong with this society. How can you hold someone responsibile, and accuse them of wasting 3 years of a man's life because he couldn't fix the problem. That is the reason I dont want to follow my parents path. If you save a man's life or career, then they thank for a week. If you are unable to help them, even though you tried your best, you are hated for a year.

He kept telling Grant that he's cleared to go back on the court and then Hil plays 4 games and is in pain again.

I am almost positive he told Hill to let it rest, and to proceed with extreme caution. It was Grant Hill and the Magic organization's decision to let him play. No doctor in their right mind would say, "go back and play full speed, nothing bad could happen from that."

I'm sure Hill's ankle problem isn't an easy one to diagnose

How about not an easy one to fix. Joints like your knees and ankles are used a lot. Playing professional basketball on them does not help either. When you tear something that bad, you should be thankful you can walk again, not upset that you cant play basketball.

Imagine you break the handle on your desk drawer off. So to solve it, you super glue it back on. Sure, it looks like it is fixed, and for all purposes it is. However, after your open and close that drawer a few times, it is bound to break again.

Sorry for the flame, just something that bothers me a lot

 

[jbeecham]

It's a similar thing to what happened with Marbury's ankles (although not as extreme). The doctor missed bone spurs in Marbury's ankle. Then he had to go back in and operate a year later to correct the problem. How does anyone know if he hasn't missed something else or possibly even done some damage while he was trying to correct the problem?

The doctor for Grant Hill admitted that he missed the true cause of the problem and had to go in and re-brake a bone in Hill's ankle because he didn't fix it right the first time and it healed incorrectly. Is this Grant Hill's fault? I don't think so. Could Hill have prevented the doctor's misdiagnosis? I don't think so. The only thing Grant could do was never injure himself in the 1st place and that's not a possible scenario right now.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Ok, but is it correct to blame the doctor for missing part of the problem? He obviously fixed part of the ankle with the first surgery.

What Grant Hill could have done (although probably not due to his personal nature) was to sit out and actually let it fully heal. If it still hurt a year after the initial surgery, and he hadnt played basketball on it and just did routine physical therapy, maybe the other problem could have been solved sooner since it would have become more obvious that something didnt heal right.

Most torn joints take multiple surgeries to fix. You can only do so much each time since you have to wait for things to heal before you fix another problem. However, that can take up to 18 months sometimes before you can ever begin to start training again. That was obviosuly not acceptable to either Grant Hill or the Magic.

Most of the fault lays on Grant Hill and the Magic. They are the ones who made an expedited time table on what proved to be a bad injury. As far as I know, joint surgery is not an in and out type of thing. It take trial and error, it a very small area, where many things can be wrong. However, if you try to rush it, you find yourself in a situation not unlike Penny, Googs or Hill.

Hell I would even put more fault on the fans for being so demanding than I would put on the doctor.

 

[Wally]

Originally posted by jbeecham
I blame the doctor who has not fixed Hill's ankle problems after 4 seperate surgeries. He kept telling Grant that he's cleared to go back on the court and then Hil plays 4 games and is in pain again. I'm sure Hill's ankle problem isn't an easy one to diagnose, but the doctor just took away 3 years of the guys life by not getting it right the 1st time (he still may not have it fixed either).

This is not meant to upset anyone especially thegrahamcrackr BUT I think you're right. There ARE bad doctors just as there are bad lawyers..... maybe that's not a good analogy.
I "fired" my old doctor after the third mistake. Problem was, I didn't find out it was the third mistake until he had sent me to the hospital for an appendectomy when I had a hernia. I won't even go into the other mistakes but they were all related. My wife's brother would still be alive if his doctor were any good and my sister's husband is an ER surgeon who has been "fired " from one hospital and now works at another - I have yet to see him sober. I'm not saying ALL doctors are bad by any means, but it seems as if Hill's doctor could use a doctorectomy.

There is a funny story even my new doctor likes..... I'll pass it on - hope it doesn't offend anyone....

Think About This:
A. The number of physicians in the US is 700,000.
B. Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year is 120,000. C.
Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171. (US Dept. of Health & Human
Services)

Then think about this:
A. The number of gun owners in the US is 80,000,000.
B. The number of accidental gun deaths per year (all age groups) is
1,500. C. The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is .0000188.

Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than
gun owners.

FACT: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE
HAS AT LEAST ONE DOCTOR.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

My only arguement against your unfortunate situation is in Grant Hill's case dont you think that the doctor would have been better? He obviosuly had to be a very distinguished doctor in his field, and had an amazing track record to handle an 80 million dollar ankle.

I understand that there are bad doctors, but the are bad cops, bad teachers. People are just sometimes bad. Their profession does not identify the type of person they are.

If a doctor injures someone from a malpractice case, then they should burn in hell. But if he cannot surgically repair you while performing correct and ethical procedures, then he should bear no blame.

I do not know anything about your wife's brother's case, and you two have my condolences.....however, just so you know (not saying this is the case with you) many people who loose a loved one blame the doctor.

My dad is arguably one of the top 3 pediatric intensivists in the state. Nurses and 2 doctors followed him when he left a horrible St. Joseph situation to move to PCH. In fact, if you have ever had a child in bad condition, there is a decent chance you may have met my father. His group handles a good percentage of the cases in AZ, and each member tends to see each patient at least once. Anyways, the point of his backround is that he has had people cuss him out, cry and scream at him for months after a child passes away becasue he couldn't save them. The fact of the matter is, he is a good doctor, he is a member of a reputable group, and sometimes you just cannot help an untimely death.

It is human nature to hold a vendetta against someone who couldnt help. I know that I still dislike the doctors who were taking care of my best friend when he died 3 years ago. Even though my dad told me there was nothing that could be done, I still hold them unfairly responsible.

Anyways, I just dont think that you can blame a doctor who did what he could. Even if someone could do it better, if the doctor did his best then how can you blame them?

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Originally posted by Wally

There is a funny story even my new doctor likes..... I'll pass it on - hope it doesn't offend anyone....

Think About This:
A. The number of physicians in the US is 700,000.
B. Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year is 120,000. C.
Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171. (US Dept. of Health & Human
Services)

Then think about this:
A. The number of gun owners in the US is 80,000,000.
B. The number of accidental gun deaths per year (all age groups) is
1,500. C. The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is .0000188.

Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than
gun owners.

FACT: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE
HAS AT LEAST ONE DOCTOR.

Im not offended since it is more or less a joke, but just for arguements sake:

First off, the groups listed aren't really fair. A very small percentage of gun owners are responsible for other people in comparison to phycians.

Secondly, lets look at it this way.

There are 80million gun owners in the US. Each year, those 80 million people save "x" amount of lives. (Pretty much boils down to police officers, and they may not even be gun owners)

There are 700,000 doctors in the US. Each year they save probably close to say 20 million lives.

(Random number, but figure that an ICU has an average of 40 beds, and they are almost always full at every hospital. Not to mention trama wards, ERs, ect. ect. Dont forget a person can be saved more than once, chronically ill people can be saved once a month...I think it is safe to say that 20mil people are saved each year in one way or another.)

(I think we can all agree the number saved is far greater than the number of doctors)

So if 700,00 doctors save 20 million people a year, that is 28.57 people saved per year per doctor. If they accidently kill .171, you get a ratio of 167.07 people saved to 1 person accidently killed per doctor each year.

If 80,000,000 million gun owners save 50,000 people a year that is .000625 peopel saved per year. If they accidently kill .0000188 people, you get a ratio of 33.28 people saved to 1 person accidently killed per gun owner each year.


So statistically speaking (again numbers were made up, but are reasonable) doctors are much less dangerous when you look at the big picture. A hard question to ask, is 1 accidental death worth 167 saved lives.........I would say it is an "acceptable" number.

 

[fordronken]

Originally posted by thegrahamcrackr
Im not offended since it is more or less a joke, but just for arguements sake:

First off, the groups listed aren't really fair. A very small percentage of gun owners are responsible for other people in comparison to phycians.

Secondly, lets look at it this way.

There are 80million gun owners in the US. Each year, those 80 million people save "x" amount of lives. (Pretty much boils down to police officers, and they may not even be gun owners)

There are 700,000 doctors in the US. Each year they save probably close to say 20 million lives.

(Random number, but figure that an ICU has an average of 40 beds, and they are almost always full at every hospital. Not to mention trama wards, ERs, ect. ect. Dont forget a person can be saved more than once, chronically ill people can be saved once a month...I think it is safe to say that 20mil people are saved each year in one way or another.)

(I think we can all agree the number saved is far greater than the number of doctors)

So if 700,00 doctors save 20 million people a year, that is 28.57 people saved per year per doctor. If they accidently kill .171, you get a ratio of 167.07 people saved to 1 person accidently killed per doctor each year.

If 80,000,000 million gun owners save 50,000 people a year that is .000625 peopel saved per year. If they accidently kill .0000188 people, you get a ratio of 33.28 people saved to 1 person accidently killed per gun owner each year.


So statistically speaking (again numbers were made up, but are reasonable) doctors are much less dangerous when you look at the big picture. A hard question to ask, is 1 accidental death worth 167 saved lives.........I would say it is an "acceptable" number.

Hopefully nobody on this board is arguing that we'd be better off in the long run without any doctors...

 

[Wally]

Originally posted by fordronken
Hopefully nobody on this board is arguing that we'd be better off in the long run without any doctors...

Life without humor would not be worth living and then we wouldn't need any doctors.

 

[fordronken]

Originally posted by Wally
Life without humor would not be worth living and then we wouldn't need any doctors.

I think a life without humor would be terribly funny.