Great article & something I & many have been saying

[Buckybird]

This team as constructed right now isn't built to play this way.

http://www.ktar.com/category/opinio...n:-Warner-is-gone,-but-does-Whiz-realize-it?/

 

[PACardsFan]

This team as constructed right now isn't built to play this way.

http://www.ktar.com/category/opinio...n:-Warner-is-gone,-but-does-Whiz-realize-it?/

I think the 2 comments below the article made more sense than Adam did.

 

[kerouac9]

I'll first admit that I find the spread offense the Cards are running to be aesthetically displeasing and ineffective if you don't have a top tier QB. The top tier QBs in the NFL cut their teeth with run-first offenses, and then grew into the multi-WR sets that we see from Brady, Manning, Brees, Rivers, etc.

But I don't understand how Whis can believe that he's playing to his roster's strengths with the lineup that he's using. He has two starting-calibier RBs, but three rookie WRs. Obviously, it makes sense to come out in three- and four-WR sets. Don't put your veteran tight ends on the field, who can block and catch.

 

[Cardiac]

I think the 2 comments below the article made more sense than Adam did.

At some point Whiz does need to stop referring to Warner. I believe he does this to help explain why he is running the offense the way he is and not simply trying to establish a 3 yrds and cloud of dust offense.

There are 2 teams that have been successful with a run first offense recently, the Titans and Jets. Perhaps the Bengals, Steelers and Ravens as well. The thing is that all of these teams have very good to outstanding defenses.

Which teams have been to SB's in the past 10 years? It would be teams that have a very good passing game. It is easier to go to the SB with a very good Pass offense then an elite running offense.

The ability to be effective in the run game is important but not as important as being able to throw the ball. Against the Saints who stacked the box and dared the Cards to throw the ball Whiz (IMHO) used a great balance of Pass and Run. The run was used to help eat clock but also to keep the Saints D more honest. Imagine how horrible the Cards would be if they simply ran on 1st and 2nd and then passed on 3rd and long.

The Steelers philosophy of being a run first team is over stated and not accurate. When Whiz was there as the OC he passed early and often in games to get a lead and then let the D and the run game finish off the opposition. Big Ben is a quality QB and carried the offensive side of the ball to their last SB.

Adding Fanaca didn't all of a sudden make this team a running jugernaught, nor was it meant to. Yes he is expected to help us with running the ball but he is also expected to help as a mentor and with leadership. As the line gets more playing time together and the chemistry helps improve the run game I'm sure Whiz will run more. I also doubt he will only throw the ball on 3rd and longs. Does anyone here really want 3yds and cloud of dust?

 

[kerouac9]

At some point Whiz does need to stop referring to Warner. I believe he does this to help explain why he is running the offense the way he is and not simply trying to establish a 3 yrds and cloud of dust offense.

There are 2 teams that have been successful with a run first offense recently, the Titans and Jets. Perhaps the Bengals, Steelers and Ravens as well. The thing is that all of these teams have very good to outstanding defenses.

Which teams have been to SB's in the past 10 years? It would be teams that have a very good passing game. It is easier to go to the SB with a very good Pass offense then an elite running offense.

The ability to be effective in the run game is important but not as important as being able to throw the ball. Against the Saints who stacked the box and dared the Cards to throw the ball Whiz (IMHO) used a great balance of Pass and Run. The run was used to help eat clock but also to keep the Saints D more honest. Imagine how horrible the Cards would be if they simply ran on 1st and 2nd and then passed on 3rd and long.

The Steelers philosophy of being a run first team is over stated and not accurate. When Whiz was there as the OC he passed early and often in games to get a lead and then let the D and the run game finish off the opposition. Big Ben is a quality QB and carried the offensive side of the ball to their last SB.

Adding Fanaca didn't all of a sudden make this team a running jugernaught, nor was it meant to. Yes he is expected to help us with running the ball but he is also expected to help as a mentor and with leadership. As the line gets more playing time together and the chemistry helps improve the run game I'm sure Whiz will run more. I also doubt he will only throw the ball on 3rd and longs. Does anyone here really want 3yds and cloud of dust?

Yes. I do. Because both Beanie and Tim Hightower can break a 40 yard run when they get the ball.

And I think you're misunderstanding the lesson of the last few Super Bowls. It's about the quarterback: Warner, Roethlisberger, Manning, Brady, Brees. Eli Manning won the Super Bowl with a power running offense.

And you're wrong about the Steelers Super Bowl season: http://www.nfl.com/players/benroethlisberger/gamelogs?id=ROE750381&season=2005

In the regular season that year, Ben R. attempted more than 30 passes one time. Once. In 7 games he attempted fewer than 25 passes. He had 3 games where he completed fewer than 10 passes. And this wasn't even in his rookie year.

What concerns me is that Warner said Sunday that Max Hall told him that he loves sending 5 receivers out into patterns so that he can read the defense. To an extent this makes sense when you have terrible WRs--you can't trust these guys to take advantage of one-on-one matchups. But once the offense has their full complement of WRs back, play your 21 package. Beanie can set the corner and Hightower can run the stretch play.

But you're not going to win games with Max Hall attempting 30+ passes a game, and you're not going to have your defense in the position to win games for you because they're going to be on the field for 70 snaps a game.

Kind of like they were against the Chargers and Falcons, when the offense came out hucking and ducking.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Does anyone here really want 3yds and cloud of dust?

In the context of your post ? No.

As a indentity, yes.

3rd yards and a cloud of dust has effects not seen in the stat sheet. 3yds and a clould of dust makes your play-action effective. 3yds and a cloud of dust puts bumps, and bruises on those pass rushers and cover linebackers to make them a little slower, and a little less aggressive.

Give me a offense that will get me 3 yds (dust optional) when I need it, regardless of the situation, 95% of the time, and you can start "imposing your will" on other teams.

Whiz has all the peices (stereotypically speaking) to have a nasty power running game. The problem is that our huge offensive line cannot sync up and run block as a unit, and our 239lbs running back is dancing, instead of blasting towards the line of scrimmage.

 

[Perfectionist]

Teams are going to be stacking the box and are going to make us beat them through the air. Until Max or who ever is quarterbacking hits some big plays to open receivers why should teams play us honest. If we can ever get to that position then our offense will be effective, and maybe we will see a more balanced attack.

 

[Cardiac]

Yes. I do. Because both Beanie and Tim Hightower can break a 40 yard run when they get the ball.

Sure they can, but at this point with Hall starting and D's scheming to shut down the run the odds turn against us.

And I think you're misunderstanding the lesson of the last few Super Bowls. It's about the quarterback: Warner, Roethlisberger, Manning, Brady, Brees. Eli Manning won the Super Bowl with a power running offense.

It being about the QB does equate to passing game, right? Eli won due to a balanced offense featuring the run and an Outstanding D.

And you're wrong about the Steelers Super Bowl season: http://www.nfl.com/players/benroethlisberger/gamelogs?id=ROE750381&season=2005

In the regular season that year, Ben R. attempted more than 30 passes one time. Once. In 7 games he attempted fewer than 25 passes. He had 3 games where he completed fewer than 10 passes. And this wasn't even in his rookie year.

I listed the Steelers as one of the teams with a strong running game. The point I made was that they passed early to get the lead and set up the run. I went throught the play by play on 3 of the games attached to your link. Pretty much went as I posted.

What concerns me is that Warner said Sunday that Max Hall told him that he loves sending 5 receivers out into patterns so that he can read the defense. To an extent this makes sense when you have terrible WRs--you can't trust these guys to take advantage of one-on-one matchups. But once the offense has their full complement of WRs back, play your 21 package. Beanie can set the corner and Hightower can run the stretch play.

Maybe that makes Max Hall a better QB then Warner, he likes more WR's out to make plays. To be clear j/k.

But you're not going to win games with Max Hall attempting 30+ passes a game, and you're not going to have your defense in the position to win games for you because they're going to be on the field for 70 snaps a game.

Having a rookie udfa QB starting isn't a recipe for success. Expecting a newly realigned O-line with only 2 of then at the same position as last year and 2 new starters to effectively run the ball if the opposing D knows we are in a 3 yds and cloud of dust mode isn't going to work.

To be clear, I don't want us throwing at the same rate as when KW was the QB, at least not for awhile. I also don't want to close the playbook to just running the ball. I like the ration Whiz had against the Saints and wouldn't be shocked if we go more to the pass until D's stop craming the box with 8 or more defenders.

Kind of like they were against the Chargers and Falcons, when the offense came out hucking and ducking.

What did go right in those games. A THT home run and ......... nothing else. Well actually the 1st drive against the Chargers was impressive mixing pass and runs to get into scoring position. Then we were scudded.

 

[MrYeahBut]

How about 3.5 yards and a cloud of dust...that at least gets you a first down. 3 yards at a time gets you 4th and 1

 

[conraddobler]

I think the article completely misses the point.

Whis is doing what he thinks is best, he's well aware of who's not here and who's here.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I think the article completely misses the point.

Whis is doing what he thinks is best, he's well aware of who's not here and who's here.

Agreed.

I also think Warner played within Whiz's system and not the other way around.

Warner THRIVED in Whiz's system, which I think is the difference between Warner with Denny Green, and Warner with Whiz.

I know talk like that can get you locked away in the Bastille these days, but to be fair, Warners' success is getting a little too far reaching, IMO. Warner had a huge amount to do with this team's past success, but it is ridiculous to not think Whiz's system didn't have something to do with it.

Whiz's system is still his system, it is tweaked for the personel around him, but it is still the same.

When this team can, it does run the ball, and a lot. But when you RB's are getting 2 ypc ? What is the point ?

 

[Shane]

Well according to all teh so called "experts" from what I have been hearing most of your successful teams IE playoff bound teams have been passing offenses. By a rather large % too. They were talking about it on NFL network one day about how this is definitely passing league.

 

[Mulli]

Well according to all teh so called "experts" from what I have been hearing most of your successful teams IE playoff bound teams have been passing offenses. By a rather large % too. They were talking about it on NFL network one day about how this is definitely passing league.

Yep. How did both the Giants and Steelers win their recent Super Bowls? Game winning drives throwing the football down the field.

 

[THESMEL]

Can't read it at work, security event because stupid twitter and face book connections. We have had success and that covers up alot of stench.

But Our success is haphazard at best, what I call a solid win We have not even a handful since whiz has been here, thats after carrying 3 score leads into the half many times!

We can't play good fundemental football more than 1/4, I use to think we could but whiz is allergic to balance, Feed the bean ect. but this is the first time Whiz called Beanie 20 times, and he got 35 yards?

Saints stacked the box, pulled Beanie after each play same crap different game. tired of making excuses, I want to see a couple solid winds in a row, where we don't need flying monkeys coming out Our AZ to win.

I know what it takes you know what it takes adam knows what it takes, Is Whiz that nonconfident in this team? I mean Pittsburg 07, Vikings last year were sweet wins where we were not scared of only being 7 poiunts up!

I feel like were behind when were ahead again, penalties, officials, turnovers, UFA rookies in star positions, throwing away a potential franchise QB for scrubs is amazing,

and make know mistake some of our players would be on the bubble on other teams, that wasn't the case before whiz got this new contract with ultimate power, We are winning buit we are not a well coached football team,

too many mistakes on all sides of the ball, repeated same thing every week, starters benched, Mike Adams is playing at CB for heavens sake? They complete at least 8-10 on him? beans on the bench, Matts cut

Just what the hells going on out there?

 

[CardLogic]

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

 

[kerouac9]

Cardiac: The alternative to three-yards and a cloud of dust isn't necessarily four-WR/one back. That's what we're running, but that's not the case.

The alternative is a base offense with play-action and roll-outs. Those plays, if the offense can cash in on them, help to freeze pass rushers and safeties and provide a greater percentage for a non-elite QB. Yes, it's a passing league, but Trent Edwards had 34 passing attempts in his first start with the Bills. Sam Bradford had 55 attempts in his game aginst us. Where did it get those teams?

 

[WildBB]

:
The ability to be effective in the run game is important but not as important as being able to throw the ball. Against the Saints who stacked the box and dared the Cards to throw the ball Whiz (IMHO) used a great balance of Pass and Run. The run was used to help eat clock but also to keep the Saints D more honest. Imagine how horrible the Cards would be if they simply ran on 1st and 2nd and then passed on 3rd and long.

The Steelers philosophy of being a run first team is over stated and not accurate. When Whiz was there as the OC he passed early and often in games to get a lead and then let the D and the run game finish off the opposition. Big Ben is a quality QB and carried the offensive side of the ball to their last SB.

Adding Fanaca didn't all of a sudden make this team a running jugernaught, nor was it meant to. Yes he is expected to help us with running the ball but he is also expected to help as a mentor and with leadership. As the line gets more playing time together and the chemistry helps improve the run game I'm sure Whiz will run more. I also doubt he will only throw the ball on 3rd and longs. Does anyone here really want 3yds and cloud of dust?

Good points, exactly! Benie is just now getting his legs under him and healthy. I expect to see a good 50/50 mix, provided the D continues to step it up and stop the opposition w/ three and six and outs.

 

[THESMEL]

dinosaurs

Whizenhunt blinks twice, pause calculated response:

fossil records shows they use to be dinosaurs, so primal ooze came first, before the chicken or the egg.

but rather eggs or chickewns want to fly, or run under the brush or get thrown at a window.

You need a fundementally sound football team. We look like a turkeys trying to play like Golden Eagles and we suck at it, scratch, peck, swallow before we try a 220 mph dive.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

 

[DeAnna]

I think it has a lot to do with the division we're in.

This is not the AFC Central, where power running games dominate. This is a sling-it first division and a running game complements it. Whis definitely changed his offensive style once Warner became the starter.

 

[football karma]

Cardiac: The alternative to three-yards and a cloud of dust isn't necessarily four-WR/one back. That's what we're running, but that's not the case.

The alternative is a base offense with play-action and roll-outs. Those plays, if the offense can cash in on them, help to freeze pass rushers and safeties and provide a greater percentage for a non-elite QB. Yes, it's a passing league, but Trent Edwards had 34 passing attempts in his first start with the Bills. Sam Bradford had 55 attempts in his game aginst us. Where did it get those teams?

I think this is right on

My one complaint with Coach W is this: I believe he out-thinks himself sometimes.

I get that with Hall the Saints were going to play the run first. I get that you want to show them some 4 wide sets to make them react. But I also think that you need to make the 2 WR, 2 TE set more of the base offense and run the football.

 

[Duckjake]

Warner THRIVED in Whiz's system, which I think is the difference between Warner with Denny Green, and Warner with Whiz.

Very true. But it's funny that in 2005 the Cards threw for 4,723 yards With Warner, McCown, and Navarre. Only 152 yards less than in 2008.

That was the year they couldn't score TDs and Rackers kicked a million FGs.

 

[Cardiac]

2010 Week 5: Max Hall vs. New Orleans
Personnel Comp. Att. Pct. Yards YPA TD INT Rating
5WR 1 1 100.0 13 13.0 0 0 118.8
1RB-2TE 4 5 80.0 32 6.4 0 0 93.3
4WR 4 6 66.7 51 8.5 0 0 93.1
2RB-2TE 3 4 75.0 25 6.3 0 0 90.6
2RB-1TE (base) 0 3 0.0 0 0.0 0 0 39.6
1RB-1TE 5 8 62.5 47 5.9 0 1 39.1
2RB-0TE 0 0 -- 0 -- 0 0 --
3TE 0 0 -- 0 -- 0 0 --
Totals 17 27 63.0 168 6.2 0 1 65.0

This is from Sando. Looks like we should go 5 WR's all the time.


Cardiac: The alternative to three-yards and a cloud of dust isn't necessarily four-WR/one back. That's what we're running, but that's not the case.

The alternative is a base offense with play-action and roll-outs. Those plays, if the offense can cash in on them, help to freeze pass rushers and safeties and provide a greater percentage for a non-elite QB. Yes, it's a passing league, but Trent Edwards had 34 passing attempts in his first start with the Bills. Sam Bradford had 55 attempts in his game aginst us. Where did it get those teams?

Just channeling my inner K9.

Seriously though, we don't have the Oline right now to simply line up and beat the snot out of anyone. Yes include play-action and roll-outs; but that doesn't have to come from a "base" offense.

Yep, the only problem with the Bills and Rams is that they pass too much.

 

[conraddobler]

I think Whis decided in camp to start Max, and he planned around that.

There was NO WAY! he could start him game one, there's no way to get there but he hatched a plan and we're in it IMO and IMO he thinks Max can run this offense, that's really the entirety of the situation.

It makes a lot more sense to me now given that I've seen Max play in a real game.

Why it looked insane is because frankly absent knowing Max it would be insane.

I don't know if it'll turn out like Whis thinks but the man has a set and he's a risk taker when he thinks it's worth it, I think we're knee deep in that bet right now.

It might not work out but it makes a lot of sense to me now where as before it didn't.

Plus we suck at running the ball, we aint going to overpower anyone with our run game, our run game works if it works at all because people are busy worrying about our passing game.

Whoever starts for this team is eventually going to have to scare people with our passing game our we're dead any way you slice it.

 

[Cardiac]

I think Whis decided in camp to start Max, and he planned around that.

There was NO WAY! he could start him game one, there's no way to get there but he hatched a plan and we're in it IMO and IMO he thinks Max can run this offense, that's really the entirety of the situation.

It makes a lot more sense to me now given that I've seen Max play in a real game.

Why it looked insane is because frankly absent knowing Max it would be insane.

I don't know if it'll turn out like Whis thinks but the man has a set and he's a risk taker when he thinks it's worth it, I think we're knee deep in that bet right now.

It might not work out but it makes a lot of sense to me now where as before it didn't.

Plus we suck at running the ball, we aint going to overpower anyone with our run game, our run game works if it works at all because people are busy worrying about our passing game.

Whoever starts for this team is eventually going to have to scare people with our passing game our we're dead any way you slice it.

 

[Mitch]

What everyone is now learning about Whiz: you cannot put much trust in what he says to the media. Whiz won't give away his thoughts...and that's mostly a good thing, but it's a frustrating thing for the fans, writers and pundits, especially after lopsided defeats when the fans want clear answers.

What it all boils down to, imo, Whiz has become enamored with scoring in the 20s and 30s...and with the skill players he has in this offense he still believes they can put up the points.

By committing more strictly to a running game, Whiz is committing to more low scoring games and that puts him in a predicament because the question is, can his defense win the low scoring close games?

I believe that as the defense gets stronger, so will Whiz's desire to run the ball. In the meantime, I expect Whiz to run the majority of the snaps out of the shotgun, where Max Hall feels more comfortable. Now...here's the thing, though. I think we will see more run calls from the shotgun...as Whiz will try to keep the defense off-balance.

It's easy for people to say the Cardinals should run the ball more...but, in reality, it's not that easy to do. In fact, when NFL teams stack the box these days it's near impossible to run the ball consistently well...it creates, as we saw Sunday a lot of 2nd and 9s and 3rd and 6s.

The problem is too...especially when you have a young QB, is constantly having to face third and mediums to longs...it puts a lot of pressure on the QB to convert.

Kurt Warner loved to pass to set up the run for that very reason...when you hand the ball off twice and now you get one pass to keep a drive going, you are not in a rhythm yet and that, combined with the pressure to be precise under third down pressure (both from the pass rush and your own pressure to preserve the drive) is a lot to put on the QB's shoulders.

One thing I do not mind at all is Whiz referring to Warner because Warner was right about so many things, the team needs to be reminded of those things. Warner was always mindful of getting himself and his WRs into a rhythm, right form the get-go (man, how many of Warner's first halfs last year were textbook? Remember the game at Chicago? Jacksonville? Home versus Green Bay?). In today's NFL this is the WAY to go. If you don't try to create rhythm by choosing to pound the ball, you risk two or three straight 3 and outs to start the game and the next thing you know you are down 10 or 14-0 and trying to dig yourself out of a hole.

This is what happened versus the Saints. The offense was not in rhythm early and the Saints jumped out. It wasn't until the offense started mixing things up more aggressively that the Cardinals were able to start moving the ball. Had the Cardinals continued to pound Beanie or Tim into the stacked box, they would have never won that game.

And...to Whiz's credit...the most dynamic player on his offense is still WR Larry Fitzgerald. When he is getting his touches the Cardinals are usually on the high side of the scoreboard.

Thus...Whiz should continue to do what the best OCs are doing today...try to get the QB into a rhythm as early as possible and mix up the plays to keep the defense guessing.