Harry Greene - A contrarian view

[Skkorpion]

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/storypage.php?Story_ID=295&Category=cardinals

See what you think. Harry doesn't miss often but I think he whiffed on this one.

 

[Tangodnzr]

I'd say "whiff" may be an understatement.

 

[Rivercard]

Wow, I don't think he gives the Cards a fair shake here. Has he been watching the same team this camp/preseason? This is worse than most of the stuff the "real' media writes.

<<Pace, King and Bryant remain largely unproven, though it looks like the Cards may have gotten lucky with King >>

This sentence is a fine example of what is unfair about that article. Why is it when a draft pick does well the Cards are considered "lucky" but when a draft pick doesn't work out we are considered inept at evaluating talent?

 

[Rivercard]

Wow, I don't think he gives the Cards a fair shake here. Has he been watching the same team this camp/preseason? This is worse than most of the stuff the "real' media writes.

-Pace, King and Bryant remain largely unproven, though it looks like the Cards may have gotten lucky with King-

This sentence is a fine example of what is unfair about that article. Why is it when a draft pick does well the Cards are considered "lucky" but when a draft pick doesn't work out we are considered inept at evaluating talent?

 

[CardinalChris]

I thikn what is most important is what he said early in the article. Arizona could have a worse record than last year, but be a much better team. I think that could happen, but I also think our team has more heart and guts than I can remember ina LONG time.

 

[spanky]

Harry,

I used to like your "objectivity" in your posts. But now, your just another "Cards management sucks", therefore they won't go anywhere doomsday poster. No, the Cards may not make the playoffs (I think they will), but according to your assessment, they can't carry anyone's suitcase so we should all give up right now. What the f*** would have had to happen (4-0 aside in preseason) that would have made you happy.......or at least more balanced in your attack of things?

 

[AzKarl]

The Article....

Is well written. It's just his opinion that blows.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Well, intitially after reading the article, I was somewhat disappointed by Harry's assessment, but after thinking about it, this team is going to have to earn credit before we assume it. For everything that can go right, there are many things that can go wrong. There are just to many question marks, and knowing the importance of getting used to a system, many of these players are just too new.

Having said that, I am extremely optimistic about this upcoming season, and the future prospects of the team. We have a ton of young talent, and a GM who while making some large mistakes, seems to be learning well on the fly, and heading the team in the right direction. I am hoping we make the playoffs and have an encouraging year, but expecting nothing.

 

[arthurracoon]

Originally posted by ASUCHRIS
Well, intitially after reading the article, I was somewhat disappointed by Harry's assessment, but after thinking about it, this team is going to have to earn credit before we assume it. For everything that can go right, there are many things that can go wrong. There are just to many question marks, and knowing the importance of getting used to a system, many of these players are just too new.

Having said that, I am extremely optimistic about this upcoming season, and the future prospects of the team. We have a ton of young talent, and a GM who while making some large mistakes, seems to be learning well on the fly, and heading the team in the right direction. I am hoping we make the playoffs and have an encouraging year, but expecting nothing.

Well said!

 

[JeffGollin]

Harry's opinion is just as valid as any of ours. (If any of us "really knows", we'd be GMing a pro team and raking in the big bucks.

Two sides of the coin:

Harry is Wrong:
I think we're a better team than Harry describes - both in an absolute sense and in comparison to other teams I've seen this spring and summer.

Harry is Right"
Every Fall (except one), we talk ourselves into believing that "we're really good this time" only to find out that "something happens" and we turn out not to be so good.

One nagging thing that prevents me from not totally disagreeing with Harry is the contrast between the way the Cardinals have handled roster-deficiencies and the way the Lions have.

The Lions Way - Matt Millen sees Mariucci is available and immediately goes out and signs him. He decides the Lions are soft defensively up the gut and when Wilkinson is available, signs him quickly. Then - when it looks like James Stewart will miss at least 6 games due to injury, Millen immediately pulls off a trade with Buffalo for Olandis Gary.

The Cardinals Way - A bit (heh heh) less proactive. We were a little soft at DT going into preseason. We still are. We lacked great front-line corners going into camp. Our starting corners, while not horrible are still suspect. Our backups behind Blake were untested young QBs going into camp. They still are.

So far Rod Graves seems to have the magic touch and is making the right moves. Maybe the Cardinals Way is the right way. But I've got to admit that sometimes I wonder...

 

[FischerKing]

Well - aside from some glaring grammatical errors, I think Harry is probably closer than some of you would like to admit.

The Cardinals have long deserved the "loser" tag that carry. That doesn't mean that this years team isn't good - but they've got a lot of history and tradition to shake along with the teams on this seasons schedule.

Looking at a team like the Buccaneers - no one would classify then as a losing organization anymore. However, they used to be the laughing stock of the NFL. What changed that perception? Consistency in winning year in and year out.

What's it going to take for the Cardinals to finally get the respect of the local and national media? Consistency and winning year in and year out. The Carindals - over the course of their history - have built themselves a less than glamorous history. Now they need to start digging themselves out of the hole they've put themselves in.

Yeah, I know - the players here now are not those players of the past. Well, to that I say, tough - they play here, they put on the uniform, they bear that legacy, so it's up to them to change the perception.

Look at a team like the Browns. They had a storied history in the 40's and 50's. Then they fell off and have become perpetual cellar dwellers for the most part. But since rejoining the league they've done much to improve their image by playing well. Perhaps they aren't winning all their games - but at least they are playing competitively. I think they'll have a decent team this season - probably even manage a playoff game or two.

If the Cardinals want to rise above their history and the negative media, then they must prove it in multi regular seasons - not preseason - that they are worthy of that respect and praise.

Shawn

 

[az1965]

Harry should write for AZ Repulic...

 

[KingofCards]

Originally posted by az1965
Harry should write for AZ Repulic...

 

[Sandan]

Note: This is not intended as a rip Harry, I just don't understand where you are coming from.

Ok, I can understand that Harry is feeling pretty negative about the team. Usually Harry provides some rationale for the opinions, I don't see any analysis here, just the Cardinals suck because of the Bidwill's.

Sorry I don't get it Harry.

Specificly ...

"virtually every team they are scheduled to play, has improved as much or more than the Cardinals have"

Packers, Rams, 49's and Seahawks D seems to have serious trouble. I mean, the Rams would kill for our current secondary.

"I still think Jackson is overrated", I've met him and I don't.

How long will Gracia's back hold up once he starts getting hit for real ?

"Pace, King and Bryant remain largely unproven", As I've said before Unproven is not the same as bad and so far they have looked pretty good. I know it's preseason but do you really think these teams are letting us hit their QB?

Are you suggesting that Wilson learnt nothing last year ? From what I've heard everybody is happy about the change in DB coach and that should help a bit.

"you have to blame ownership", this is a great throw away line. You toss it out there with no followup on what should have been done differently.

Another great cheap shot is "This is the best chance for a victory this season and may well decide the first pick in the draft." Do you honestly believe we will be worse than

Dallas
Redskins
Bears
Bengals
Detroit

While I agree I won't be happy if that's all we are better tha but how can anybody suggest that the Redskins will do well this year. I just got back from DC and nobody there believes it so why should we ?

I just don't buy that the teams we play have improved as much or nearly as much as us, there is no logic to it. One real interesting possiblity is that the Rams will implode this year as ...

1) Secondary is a mess far beyond our standards
2) O Pace is pissed off
3) Just how good wil Kurt be this year
4) Only have to WR with ANY NFL expereince and they are far more dependant of a perfectly executed passing game than us.
5) They have still to replace Hodgins, who I am very impressed with
6) MF has been talking in the offseason that he is concerned about making it through a season with his knee injuries.

Just how have they improved more than us, I don't get it ?

 

[conraddobler]

Ok a little perspective here please.....

I live in KC and have for about 13 years now I moved from St. Louis.

KC was worse than the Cardinals are now they had numerous losing seasons dating back to after the Len Dawson era and that was a very long time ago now.

They got a new GM and presto after about a year of Marty ball they went from 18000 fans a game to filling the stadium in two years.

None of those teams save for the Joe Montana team ever really had a shot at the super bowl. Well there was one year that Rich Gannon was QB for a hurt Elvis Grbac and that year they had a shot until Grbac came back and then another year with Steve freakin Bono at QB they had a Defense to die for but Linn Elliot ruined the whole season by missing 3 straight chip shot field goals. All in the name of saving money and kicking off farther than Nick Lowry. So said genius GM makes big blunders too and yet he still fielded a winning team.

Now this all relates in that I have never been in a football atmosphere where the fans had so much impact as they do here in KC. Come Mondays or even worse Tuesday mornings after a monday night game everyone is hoarse at work.

I am somewhat of an objective viewer of Chiefs football since my team always has been and always will be the Cardinals. I do root for them especially when they play the Raiders or the Broncos those teams are just pure evil in my book almost as bad as the Cowboys.

What I saw all that time was a team without hardly any legit stars win games because they believed. That was it folks they weren't all that good. They had years where they beat teams simply because they thought they would. That and they had a great place to call home in Arrowhead stadium.

I am not calling out anyone on this board because to be here really defines being a loyal fan but the AZ area as a whole is as much to blame as the team. Bidwill will never change however he did hire a new GM...

I suffer no illusions, I believe that management is saving money on the cap now on purpose because they need money for the stadium.. They also preplanned this and I think Graves knew this going in. He probably was authorized to get players he thought would fit the plan and if that didn't work out to pass on retreads for short fixes. This isn't great from a competitive standpoint right now but it is a plan and I can see the point.

So the new boss isn't as same as the old boss etc etc etc. These are not your fathers Cardinals.

Translation get on the wagon or risk running behind it I think shortly maybe not this year but soon it will get crowded.

Thinking with my head I can accept there is a possiblity Harry's article will be close to the true number of wins. However the part where it is so gloomy about management is a complete whiff in my opinion.

I believe and no one or any article is going to change that. I haven't suffered this long to bail in the first year of a turnaround and no matter how bad it looks it looks much better than I have ever seen it. 1998 was a fluke what is building now is not.

 

[KingofCards]

Originally posted by conraddobler
Come Mondays or even worse Tuesday mornings after a monday night game everyone is hoarse at work.

I am always hoarse at work after a game. I argue with people constantly on the phone so it makes it difficult if your hoarse. I actually had to to take a day off last year cause I could not talk.

 

[conraddobler]

Yeah the only difference is that your in very small minority there and in KC you wouldn't be.

Thats ok though it just makes it even better when guys like you get to go to game that really rocks on a consistent basis.

 

[KingofCards]

Originally posted by conraddobler
Yeah the only difference is that your in very small minority there and in KC you wouldn't be.

Thats ok though it just makes it even better when guys like you get to go to game that really rocks on a consistent basis.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
I'd say "whiff" may be an understatement.

As odd as it may be, I am in 100% agreement with Tango.

 

[Houdini]

Would the people who ridicule Harry ridicule the following writer?

http://archive.profootballweekly.com/content/archives2001/features_2001/daily_010302.asp

 

[jw7]

I disagree with the article on several points...but the bottom line is that the Cards have to do it on the field.

The management bashing was overdone, IMO. Yup we are not there, but with the renegotiated contracts in the offseason, uses of escalator clauses, getting all draft picks in camp within the 1st week. Big improvement. I love the free agent pick up of Hodgins.

Someone mentioned in the Gambo article, no UDFAs made the team this year. Last year there were a few.

Before KVB and Starks went down, I was in the Section 11 camp of 10 wins (yup drinking kool-aid). Now I think 8-8 if healthy. The main reason being with Hodgins and Smith/Shipp/Anderson/Jones and a legit O-line, the cards have a serious running game that can keep the D well-rested and off the field.

That said, one injury to Blake and it could be a disaster. Last year a worse team (IMO) started 4-2 and should have been 5-1 except for Jakes horrific performance against San Diego. Then the whole team started dropping like flies and only 3 of 11 offensive starters played in the final games.

This team is made up of good, talented, workaholic, character players that like each other - I see a lot of similarities between this and the Suns rebuilding efforts to clean out the riff-raff.

But until the Cardinals translate that into wins, they will still be ridiculed, have problem landing free agents, and suffer "Same old Bidwills" syndrome. Time to quit whining and put some W's on the board to shut folks up.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Good point Houdini. It's amazing how an article can turn into Witch trials. It seems well established that there are those that feel that the Cardinals will be successful this year, and there are those who don't. Regardless, those who support both positions seem to be die-hard Cardinals fans. That people attack Harry as a writer I find quite funny. He has been providing excellent and insightful articles on the Cardinals for years, and should be given some credit.

Between Walter and Harry, I believe we get some of the most thoughful and interesting perspectives on the team, and I think that while we may disagree on whether the team will succeed or not this year, to attack these two, or anyone else for that matter seems pretty premature. Once things play out, we'll see who's right. I, like probaby many of you, would love to shut people up, who ridicule us year after year for supporting the Cards.

 

[slanidrac16]

My 2 cents

Rod Graves took over a ship that wasn't sinking...it had been sunk for a couple of years. Even so, he still had to tear it down further before he embarked on his rebuilding program.

It absolutely kills me that guys like Plummer( who has looked less than stellar so far) David Boston ( ditto) Frank Sanders( injured once again) and Martay Jenkins( who got cut) were allowed to leave this pathetic 5-11 team and management gets blasted for it. Should we have overpaid and kept Plummer? Should we have have stepped way out on the ledge for Boston with his off field antics, attitude and health questions? I know some response to Boston will be that we got nothing for him. We took a big enough risk OFFERING him a contract in the first place. Thank God he didn't accept it. Were Sanders and Jenkins going to any pro bowls in the near future?

Guys like Thomas Jones, Joel Makovicka, Rob Fredrickson, and Kwamie Lassiter have been replaced by Emmitt Smith, James Hodgkins, James Darling, and Dexter Jackson.

On draft day we traded down and got 2 players in the first round ( and got them into camp!) at 2 positions that we were in desperate need. Both Johnson and Pace have looked like future stars and the remaining draft choices look solid.

We have changed offensive coordinators. We added a stable QB. We have changed our defensive philosophy.

Just how much more can be done in 1 year? Could we have spent more money. Yes, but we may still do that with "keepers" on current roster.

I am not going to predict playoffs. But to say this team hasn't made huge strides is just flat out wrong in my humble opinion. I feel the amount of success this team will achieve, will be directly related to THE OFFENSIVE LINE. If they stay healthy and live up to billing, WE WILL TURNS SOME HEADS THIS YEAR. Not enough to make the playoffs.......but enough to give us a shot next year.

KVB was not going to get us 12 sacks this year and I doubt Starks would have started all 16 games. Will we miss these players? Yes. But how much better did the Eagles get when they lost Hugh Douglas? How much better did the Rams get when Herring and Sehorn got hurt? Seattle won't miss Shaun Springs at all will they? Did the 49ers get better when cb Jason Webster went down? My point is every strives to "get better", but I don't believe every team that we are scheduled to play has succeeded in "getting better".

I respect Harry's opinion. But finally, Rod Graves have started to raise this sunken ship. Do we have a ways to go? Absolutely. But........

THIS IS NOT YOUR FATHERS CARDINALS!

 

[Krangodnzr]

Re: My 2 cents

Originally posted by slanidrac16
Rod Graves took over a ship that wasn't sinking...it had been sunk for a couple of years. Even so, he still had to tear it down further before he embarked on his rebuilding program.

It absolutely kills me that guys like Plummer( who has looked less than stellar so far) David Boston ( ditto) Frank Sanders( injured once again) and Martay Jenkins( who got cut) were allowed to leave this pathetic 5-11 team and management gets blasted for it. Should we have overpaid and kept Plummer? Should we have have stepped way out on the ledge for Boston with his off field antics, attitude and health questions? I know some response to Boston will be that we got nothing for him. We took a big enough risk OFFERING him a contract in the first place. Thank God he didn't accept it. Were Sanders and Jenkins going to any pro bowls in the near future?

Guys like Thomas Jones, Joel Makovicka, Rob Fredrickson, and Kwamie Lassiter have been replaced by Emmitt Smith, James Hodgkins, James Darling, and Dexter Jackson.

On draft day we traded down and got 2 players in the first round ( and got them into camp!) at 2 positions that we were in desperate need. Both Johnson and Pace have looked like future stars and the remaining draft choices look solid.

We have changed offensive coordinators. We added a stable QB. We have changed our defensive philosophy.

Just how much more can be done in 1 year? Could we have spent more money. Yes, but we may still do that with "keepers" on current roster.

I am not going to predict playoffs. But to say this team hasn't made huge strides is just flat out wrong in my humble opinion. I feel the amount of success this team will achieve, will be directly related to THE OFFENSIVE LINE. If they stay healthy and live up to billing, WE WILL TURNS SOME HEADS THIS YEAR. Not enough to make the playoffs.......but enough to give us a shot next year.

KVB was not going to get us 12 sacks this year and I doubt Starks would have started all 16 games. Will we miss these players? Yes. But how much better did the Eagles get when they lost Hugh Douglas? How much better did the Rams get when Herring and Sehorn got hurt? Seattle won't miss Shaun Springs at all will they? Did the 49ers get better when cb Jason Webster went down? My point is every strives to "get better", but I don't believe every team that we are scheduled to play has succeeded in "getting better".

I respect Harry's opinion. But finally, Rod Graves have started to raise this sunken ship. Do we have a ways to go? Absolutely. But........

THIS IS NOT YOUR FATHERS CARDINALS!

Nice post. Hell, even Gambadoro is jumping on the bandwagon somewhat.

 

[Redheart]

Originally posted by Houdini
Would the people who ridicule Harry ridicule the following writer?

http://archive.profootballweekly.com/content/archives2001/features_2001/daily_010302.asp

Hard to compare a year-old article with all the changes.

Last year could have been a great year for us if not for INJURIES. I know, life in the NFL, but we were smacked and our lack of depth was clearly shown.

Better depth this year, but a really different team IMO.