Hey they kicked our Butts!

[Cheesebeef]

The Patriots of last season that lost the Super Bowl was a great team. One of the best teams I've ever seen.

They got beat by a solid, scrapping Giants team hot at the right time.

There is no "great" team in this season's NFL. Not a one. There are some good ones, and we are one of the good ones. The difference between us and the Giants is they can run the ball at will and are consistent...we can't run but can pass at will and are inconsistent. Running the ball trumps passing because you run the clock down.

If you think the Giants are great, then the Cards must be very, very good. They are not that far apart.

yeah Donald they are. That's not to say we're not good. I think we are a good team but we aren't in the Giants league right now. They just came into our house, without two of their best players and beat us by more than a TD and were never threatened in the second half. You list the difference up above about being able to run (and they passed at will against us)... that's a HUGE difference. It's half of the entire offense. The Giants have also proved they can not only win games against good team at home (by blowing them out), but they can also go on the road... and beat up on good teams - something we can't do. THAT again is a huge difference.

Bottom line, I think the Cards are good and the Giants are great at this point. They are multi-dimensional on O and can bring pressure like a mother on D AND they don't make mistakes. That's the make-up of a great team IMO. We're not there yet and I don't see us getting there this year because we just don't have the horses on the O-line to make it happen and we're missing a dominating pass-rusher, but those are two BIG areas in which we're behind the Giants... oh and the fact that our special teams are routinely the wrong kind of "special" is a giant (no pun intended) gap as well.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Heres my take.

1) Thats the best team in football period. Anytime you lose your number 1 RB AND WR and cone into a hostile environment against a geeked up team and still win - you are damn good.

2) Who knew the loss of Ali Highsmith would be so huge? ST one way or another either makes you or breaks you.

3) Arrington is playing like a man possessed

4) DRC is a future Pro Bowler

5) Warner has now had two tough games in a row. He is special when he doesn't turn over the ball. Hes his own worst enemy when he tries to do too much.

6) Wilson AGAIN proved to be the most important player on defense for us.

No shame in that loss. Can't say enough about championship experience. That was the difference today. They had it. We don't.

Gotta get ramped up for Thursday and get that win on a confused Philly team.

 

[Cheesebeef]

They were better than us today. But we sure didn't do ourselves any favors.

but we don't do ourselves any favors EVERY week as far as special teams. It's not like today was out of the norm. The last three weeks alone we've given up a KR for a TD against SF, a 70 yard KR against Seattle and then this week 2 70 yard plus KR. That's not us beating ourselves. That's just a bad unit and a bad unit is unfortunately part of the team.

 

[D-Dogg]

oh and the fact that our special teams are routinely the wrong kind of "special" is a giant (no pun intended) gap as well.

Regarding the other stuff, I remember it differently...agree to disagree, etc.

To the above:

Special teams has been a problem for this team for a long, long time. We've made significant gains on the return side, but the coverage is still really poor to average.

 

[D-Dogg]

That's not us beating ourselves. That's just a bad unit and a bad unit is unfortunately part of the team.

I can understand and agree with this argument.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Regarding the other stuff, I remember it differently...agree to disagree, etc.

To the above:

Special teams has been a problem for this team for a long, long time. We've made significant gains on the return side, but the coverage is still really poor to average.

poor to average is being kind. our punter/coverage teams are just pathetic.

 

[Cheesebeef]

4) DRC is a future Pro Bowler

kid's got really, really good cover skills. That's AWESOME. That's an inate ability that you either have or don't. Now someone needs to teach him how to tackle.

5) Warner has now had two tough games in a row. He is special when he doesn't turn over the ball. Hes his own worst enemy when he tries to do too much.

tough... that may be a bit... uh... tough. I'd say he's been a mixed bag the last couple weeks. That's okay though. No one's perfect. As long as he gets back to playing the way he did for the majority of the first half, we'll be okay and I'm confident he will.

No shame in that loss. Can't say enough about championship experience. That was the difference today. They had it. We don't.

and that is the GREATEST gap Donald. Beyond being better on D and multi-dimensional on O, the Giants have that confidence that we don't have. There's no substitute for the experience they got last year. None.

 

[D-Dogg]

and that is the GREATEST gap Donald. Beyond being better on D and multi-dimensional on O, the Giants have that confidence that we don't have. There's no substitute for the experience they got last year. None.

I agree with that...it is where they get their consistency from. They have won big, and won close games. They are very consistent in what they want to do. We are not...yet. I hope that comes.

To be honest, I might feel differently about this game when (if..I don't have time this week) I watch the broadcast version. I'm going off what I saw on the field, and the atmosphere. We had the momentum there until Ware's penalty on the return, that turned into a rekick and a huge return. From that moment on, we were trying to get the mo back. Later in the game even though we were down, there was a feeling in the building that we could get some big plays. It didn't feel like we were being outclassed, but like we weren't rising to the challenge.

I've felt one way in the stadium to feel differently on rewatch before, and you may be right in your viewpoint, but I think we just shot ourselves in the foot and gave a good team the ball in great position too many times to win the game. If that was an NFC West opponent, we'd have won despite our mistakes, but you can't do that against a good team. FIVE times we gave them the ball on our side of the field. You simply can't do that and win in the NFL. The margin of talent is too small to spot that kind of field position.

If they were great though, they would have slaughtered us, IMO. We hung around there and had a good shot at recovering the onside kick to have great field position with a lot of time left to go for a chance to tie. Can't ask for much more against a defending champion.

We executed defensively for most of the game the way we should have...heavy against the run and let Eli make plays. He just made them and we didn't get to him to rattle him. hats off to them for that, but they didn't kick our butts. They simply executed and won a tough road game against a tough opponent.

People touted their pass defense...didn't matter...we scored on them and moved the ball well. We made key mistakes on the coverage unit and that cost us this game, IMO.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I agree with that...it is where they get their consistency from. They have won big, and won close games. They are very consistent in what they want to do. We are not...yet. I hope that comes.

To be honest, I might feel differently about this game when (if..I don't have time this week) I watch the broadcast version. I'm going off what I saw on the field, and the atmosphere. We had the momentum there until Ware's penalty on the return, that turned into a rekick and a huge return. From that moment on, we were trying to get the mo back. Later in the game even though we were down, there was a feeling in the building that we could get some big plays.

I didn't feel that AT ALL in the second half. The first half, yeah. But there was very little feeling as far as I was concerned that we could get some big plays, ESPECIALLY on D. I mean, literally, every possession of the first half the crowd was on it's feet when we were on D(believe me, I know all too well seeing as standing for that long is incredibly tough on my back at this point) and in the 2nd, it felt like I got a breather because that same energy wasn't there. At least not anywhere near where I was sitting.

I've felt one way in the stadium to feel differently on rewatch before, and you may be right in your viewpoint, but I think we just shot ourselves in the foot and gave a good team the ball in great position too many times to win the game. If that was an NFC West opponent, we'd have won despite our mistakes, but you can't do that against a good team. FIVE times we gave them the ball on our side of the field. You simply can't do that and win in the NFL. The margin of talent is too small to spot that kind of field position.

If they were great though, they would have slaughtered us, IMO. We hung around there and had a good shot at recovering the onside kick to have great field position with a lot of time left to go for a chance to tie. Can't ask for much more against a defending champion.

a defending champion at home, missing it's two best offensive players? And they should have slaughtered us? We're a good team and a VERY GOOD home team, one of the best in the league. Winning by more than a TD (and being up by as many as 15 in the fourth) is an impressive win from a team missing it's two best players. Saying they should have slaughtered us is giving us too little credit.

We executed defensively for most of the game the way we should have...heavy against the run and let Eli make plays. He just made them and we didn't get to him to rattle him.

then we didn't execute our game. Just stopping their run doesn't stop the Giants. You also have to pressure Eli and we never even came CLOSE to doing so (save one play by Bert on the first drive). And we didn't take away their run as much as the Giants came out throwing. When the Giants needed to run (like in the fourth quarter to bleed the clock) they did.

hats off to them for that, but they didn't kick our butts.

i thought they put a pretty good licking on us in the second half, dominating both lines of scrimmage. Warner was tossed around like a rag-doll, we couldn't run for squat, we couldn't touch Eli and when they needed to run the ball at the end of the game to bleed the clock they were able to. Not a complete and utter ass-kicking like the Jets game, but it seemed to me that the game was pretty well in hand. One of those games where the score didn't tell the whole story (although they were up twice by 12, 15 and 11 points at separate times in the second half meaning that they were just always in control.)

 

[D-Dogg]

I didn't feel that AT ALL in the second half. The first half, yeah.

~

i thought they put a pretty good licking on us in the second half, dominating both lines of scrimmage. Warner was tossed around like a rag-doll, we couldn't run for squat, we couldn't touch Eli and when they needed to run the ball at the end of the game to bleed the clock they were able to. Not a complete and utter ass-kicking like the Jets game, but it seemed to me that the game was pretty well in hand. One of those games where the score didn't tell the whole story (although they were up twice by 12, 15 and 11 points at separate times in the second half meaning that they were just always in control.)

This is the first part I want to address; I'll come back to your other points in another post.

My point has been that the ST coverage meltdowns were what screwed us. Those were two of the times we gave them short field. We played them tight in the first half and gave them easy points to boot. Take away our miscues, and the game plays out differently. We were with them, and we had momentum on them. Then Ware's KR penalty gave them another shot and they took advantage. The air came out of the building and the game changed. You could feel it...we all could.

Then we try to hit a miracle kick, which was doable and instead of making it even remotely close, it turned into a squib kick. Just an awful way to go into the halftime.

Third quarter, we surrender the ball to them on TO, and they score. The life is sucking away, but we hang around and continue to try and make plays. we tighten the game, and again a TO puts them in our field. The INT by Warner was simply a dumb throw. Oh well, it happens, but we bounce back again and get it within a score and the onside kick bounces off of our guy's chest, which would have given us the ball down 8 with 4 or so to go.

We never rose to the challenge. It was there for the taking, but we couldn't take it.

I never felt we were out of it. I thought it would be a hell of a mountain to climb, for sure, but that we had the offensive horses to do it if we had the ball, but we couldn't make the plays that were THERE for us.

woulda, coulda, shoulda, I know. But we shot ourselves in the foot when opportunity said "hey cards, here's another chance."

 

[az1965]

Cheese, I don't see how you can disagree. We handled them in the first half for sure, but ST we collapsed TWICE and gave them what, 25 and 30 yard fields on back to back posessions?

yes, anytime someone efs up on special teams someone can say the other team did a good job. But WE are the team who gave them a second return opportunity with a stupid penalty that led to a return to the 25 and a TD.

WE played terribly on ST. They didn't do anything special. It wasn't Devin Hester back there just outrunning people. WE missed tackles.

WE had bad snaps. We made serious mistakes.

They got what they wanted on us, but they didn't have to earn it. We served it up on a silver platter. 23 of their points came on drives they started in OUR half of the field. You say the Giants are "great" and I disagree with that. I think they are very good, but not great. They aren't going down in any history books. However, give a pretty good team the ball with less than 50 yards to go five times and they will make you pay.

Lackluster effort on ST and defense. The offense was ok, not great but not terrible.

Agree... I did not see anything special from Giants except that they did not make mistakes and they capatilized on ours.

 

[az1965]

poor to average is being kind. our punter/coverage teams are just pathetic.

Agree... this is an understatement.

 

[D-Dogg]

I was concerned that we could get some big plays, ESPECIALLY on D.

then we didn't execute our game. Just stopping their run doesn't stop the Giants. You also have to pressure Eli and we never even came CLOSE to doing so (save one play by Bert on the first drive). And we didn't take away their run as much as the Giants came out throwing. When the Giants needed to run (like in the fourth quarter to bleed the clock) they did.

This is where I thought we failed. They succeeded. We could not generate a pass rush...but we also didn't bring AW as much as we should have either. The inability to get to Eli when we had been stuffing the run doomed us, IMO.

My thoughts on this game were that we'd stop the run (we do very well at this, time and time again) and that we'd get pressure on Eli. Putting the game in his hands was the way to win, but we couldn't pressure him to make him force it and make mistakes....the entire game was tight enough where a big defensive play like we've made all season long (INT, sack and fumble recovery) would have helped us get the momentum back. We couldn't make it materialize.

I think our difference of opinion here is that you credit the Giants for not allowing it to happen, and I chastise our defense for not MAKING it happen. In the NFL, you have to make things happen, and with an opportunistic, but seive like defense that we have, we have to make things happen. We got no pressure. We let them dictate in the passing game. The plan was executed to the point of taking away the run, and having Eli throw, but we couldn't capitalize.

I'd pit our defense against Eli throwing any day...but I don't think the defense performed as well as they could have. One sack? We win games when we get at the QB. Ask Edwards and Romo. We beat the living world out of Romo, and he made mistakes. We basically said...hey Eli, beat us..and then didn't put any pressure on him. He's a very good QB with time, and we let him have that time. He beat us at our own game...short passing game killed us.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I agree with that...it is where they get their consistency from. They have won big, and won close games. They are very consistent in what they want to do. We are not...yet. I hope that comes.

To be honest, I might feel differently about this game when (if..I don't have time this week) I watch the broadcast version. I'm going off what I saw on the field, and the atmosphere. We had the momentum there until Ware's penalty on the return, that turned into a rekick and a huge return. From that moment on, we were trying to get the mo back. Later in the game even though we were down, there was a feeling in the building that we could get some big plays.

I didn't feel that AT ALL in the second half. The first half, yeah. But there was very little feeling as far as I was concerned that we could get some big plays, ESPECIALLY on D. I mean, literally, every possession of the first half the crowd was on it's feet when we were on D(believe me, I know all too well seeing as standing for that long is incredibly tough on my back at this point) and in the 2nd, it felt like I got a breather because that same energy wasn't there. At least not anywhere near where I was sitting.

I've felt one way in the stadium to feel differently on rewatch before, and you may be right in your viewpoint, but I think we just shot ourselves in the foot and gave a good team the ball in great position too many times to win the game. If that was an NFC West opponent, we'd have won despite our mistakes, but you can't do that against a good team. FIVE times we gave them the ball on our side of the field. You simply can't do that and win in the NFL. The margin of talent is too small to spot that kind of field position.

If they were great though, they would have slaughtered us, IMO. We hung around there and had a good shot at recovering the onside kick to have great field position with a lot of time left to go for a chance to tie. Can't ask for much more against a defending champion.

a defending champion at home, missing it's two best offensive players? And they should have slaughtered us? We're a good team and a VERY GOOD home team, one of the best in the league. Winning by more than a TD (and being up by as many as 15 in the fourth) is an impressive win from a team missing it's two best players. Saying they should have slaughtered us is giving us too little credit.

We executed defensively for most of the game the way we should have...heavy against the run and let Eli make plays. He just made them and we didn't get to him to rattle him.

then we didn't execute our game. Just stopping their run doesn't stop the Giants. You also have to pressure Eli and we never even came CLOSE to doing so (save one play by Bert on the first drive). And we didn't take away their run as much as the Giants came out throwing. When the Giants needed to run (like in the fourth quarter to bleed the clock) they did.

hats off to them for that, but they didn't kick our butts.

i thought they put a pretty good licking on us in the second half, dominating both lines of scrimmage. Warner was tossed around like a rag-doll, we couldn't run for squat, we couldn't touch Eli and when they needed to run the ball at the end of the game to bleed the clock they were able to. Not a complete and utter ass-kicking like the Jets game, but it seemed to me that the game was pretty well in hand. One of those games where the score didn't tell the whole story (although they were up twice by 12, 15 and 11 points at separate times in the second half meaning that they were just always in control.)

 

[D-Dogg]

And our punting is beyond terrible. Dirk has now effed up two XPs. That is inexcusable. We need a punter in the worst way. The field position game killed us today, both in punts and in the coverage teams play on kickoffs.

I put this loss on ST as much as the Cowboy win got them lifted up on shoulders.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Agree... I did not see anything special from Giants except that they did not make mistakes and they capatilized on ours.

man, I really think you guys underestimate the ability to make ZERO mistakes and being able to capitalize on EVERY mistake the other team makes. that takes incredible focus, determination and consistency. that's what makes greatness IMO.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I'd pit our defense against Eli throwing any day...but I don't think the defense performed as well as they could have. One sack? We win games when we get at the QB. Ask Edwards and Romo. We beat the living world out of Romo, and he made mistakes.

Romo/Edwards don't a) have the best offensive line in football in front of them like Eli does and b) since the playoffs last year, Eli protects the ball better than anyone in football.

we didn't take away jack from the Giants. They came out in the short passing game and controlled us with it and then when they needed to run out the clock in the 2nd half at the end of the game, they bled it dry.

 

[Cheesebeef]

This is the first part I want to address; I'll come back to your other points in another post.

My point has been that the ST coverage meltdowns were what screwed us. Those were two of the times we gave them short field. We played them tight in the first half and gave them easy points to boot. Take away our miscues, and the game plays out differently. We were with them, and we had momentum on them. Then Ware's KR penalty gave them another shot and they took advantage. The air came out of the building and the game changed. You could feel it...we all could.

Then we try to hit a miracle kick, which was doable and instead of making it even remotely close, it turned into a squib kick. Just an awful way to go into the halftime.

Third quarter, we surrender the ball to them on TO, and they score. The life is sucking away, but we hang around and continue to try and make plays. we tighten the game, and again a TO puts them in our field. The INT by Warner was simply a dumb throw. Oh well, it happens, but we bounce back again and get it within a score and the onside kick bounces off of our guy's chest, which would have given us the ball down 8 with 4 or so to go.

We never rose to the challenge. It was there for the taking, but we couldn't take it.

I never felt we were out of it. I thought it would be a hell of a mountain to climb, for sure, but that we had the offensive horses to do it if we had the ball, but we couldn't make the plays that were THERE for us.

woulda, coulda, shoulda, I know. But we shot ourselves in the foot when opportunity said "hey cards, here's another chance."

and what you see as shooting oursevles in the foot someone else can easily say the other team MADE PLAYS.

 

[D-Dogg]

man, I really think you guys underestimate the ability to make ZERO mistakes and being able to capitalize on EVERY mistake the other team makes. that takes incredible focus, determination and consistency. that's what makes greatness IMO.

And I think that you put too much credit on an offense to make no mistakes vs. a defense to FORCE mistakes.

We failed on defense to force the issue.

I'm of the opinion that defense is more of a wild card than an offense. The read and react aspect of football, IMO, lies on the defensive side more than the offensive side. Offense is trained to execute the set plays and find the open man, while the defense is trained to disrupt. We did not disrupt in any facet. Not at the line, not in the secondary. Great defense beats good offense, any day. We didn't play good defense...much less great.

 

[Linderbee]

It's like watching a game of tennis in here...

 

[Shane]

a nd we have a pretty weak one overall.

WTF? Are you serious? We have the Eagles on the road on 3 days rest. I dont care what any of you say that is gonna be one tough game.

We have a very stout and better than their record Minnesota team and The Pats on the road another east coast game with time change. Thats 3 of 5 pretty damned tough games. The Seahawks are getting healthy too. They played the skins mighty tough today on the road. This schedule is no easy minus the Rams maybe.

 

[az1965]

Hawks played Skins at home... and we don't "rest" 3 days. Its a brutal practice Monday and Tuesday and early Wednesday flight to Phili.

 

[D-Dogg]

and what you see as shooting oursevles in the foot someone else can easily say the other team MADE PLAYS.

This is simply a disagreement on how the game is played. I feel it is played from the defensive side..."you take what the defense gives you."

However, we GAVE them field position inside our side of the field 5 times to the tune of 23 points. We failed there. They didn't make that happen.

We missed tackles on returns. We turned the ball over on bad plays...the INT was a bad throw. The other TO was a bad play on our part. The KR were bad tackling. We had them pinned back in their field, and Matt ware was an idiot...did the Giants make Ware an idiot?? No, he was an idiot. They didnt' MAKE him lose his mind. We effed up and they made us pay.

Like I said...a good team will make you pay for your mistakes. The seahawks, rams and niners won't. A good team will.

I hope that we learned that from this game.

If the Cards come away thinking...hey, we got beat by a better team, then we are screwed. If they come away thinking...God, we effed up and better clean it up against good teams, then this loss will help us improve.

I wonder what Whis thinks...

 

[Shane]

Hawks played Skins at home... and we don't "rest" 3 days. Its a brutal practice Monday and Tuesday and early Wednesday flight to Phili.

Still same point. Our schedule isnt easy.

 

[az1965]

Still same point. Our schedule isnt easy.

Agree. No game is easy. Even the MNF with 9ers was tough.