Hey they kicked our Butts!

[Cheesebeef]

And I think that you put too much credit on an offense to make no mistakes vs. a defense to FORCE mistakes.

We failed on defense to force the issue.

sorry, but I saw a different game. I saw us bring blitzes and never get to Eli. No one ever gets to Eli. And you think that it's a matter of our defense not "forcing" mistakes... do you realize how bad our defense has been at "not forcing" mistakes against the best teams we've faced? The Skins hung 24 against us, the Jets put 56 against us, the Cowboys put 24 against us, the Panthers put 27 against and the Giants put 37 against us. Not sure why you thought that would be any different today. That's an average margin of 33.6 ppg. And really, the only time the D even came close to looking solid in any of those games was the first 57 minutes of the Cowboys game before the D rolled over and died.

thus, another reason of the great chasm between us and the Giants. this D seems to fatten up it's stats against pretenders but so far, when it's come to the big boys, for the most part, they really haven't shown the ability to change a game or control it, the way you talked about above.

 

[D-Dogg]

WTF? Are you serious? We have the Eagles on the road on 3 days rest. I dont care what any of you say that is gonna be one tough game.

We have a very stout and better than their record Minnesota team and The Pats on the road another east coast game with time change. Thats 3 of 5 pretty damned tough games. The Seahawks are getting healthy too. They played the skins mighty tough today on the road. This schedule is no easy minus the Rams maybe.

We have the eagles, where we lose, though I think we are the better team. wouldn't be shocked at a win, but not shocked at a blowout either.

We have Minny, who has A weapon, one, that runs. And we will stop him like we stop all RBs. We win. At home.

We have the Rams.

We have the seahawks at home...we win. Sorry, they aren't good. That ship has sailed.

We have the Pats...we probably lose but it will be close, could pull that out.


The Giants:

They play washington on the road, a divisional game with Wash in the thick of the playoff hunt.

Philly at NY, probably kill them. They aren't good but will beat us on the short week.

Dallas at Dallas, divisional game and Dallas trying to get into the playoffs. Desperate division foe.

Home vs. Carolina...trying to win that division, a solid team.

That same Minny team you tout as better than record, but in Minny.



Shane, I'll take our schedule every day over theirs.

 

[Cheesebeef]

This is simply a disagreement on how the game is played. I feel it is played from the defensive side..."you take what the defense gives you."

However, we GAVE them field position inside our side of the field 5 times to the tune of 23 points. We failed there. They didn't make that happen.

you keep saying we GAVE them... does that mean when Arrington scored a TD against the Cowboys they GAVE it to him? Simply making a mistake like Warner's unpressured pick is giving the ball away. Hammering Warner and forcing the ball loose is FORCING a turnover. Taking a kickoff at your own 2 and running it back 70 yards isn't being handed anything.

 

[D-Dogg]

However, we GAVE them field position inside our side of the field 5 times to the tune of 23 points. We failed there. They didn't make that happen.

We missed tackles on returns. We turned the ball over on bad plays...the INT was a bad throw. The other TO was a bad play on our part. The KR were bad tackling. We had them pinned back in their field, and Matt ware was an idiot...did the Giants make Ware an idiot?? No, he was an idiot. They didnt' MAKE him lose his mind. We effed up and they made us pay.

Like I said...a good team will make you pay for your mistakes. The seahawks, rams and niners won't. A good team will.

I hope that we learned that from this game.

If the Cards come away thinking...hey, we got beat by a better team, then we are screwed. If they come away thinking...God, we effed up and better clean it up against good teams, then this loss will help us improve.

I wonder what Whis thinks...

You didn't adress any of that, cheese. We gave them the opportunity. They didn't take it.

We played a baseball game against them and obliged their request to use a tee.

 

[Shane]

We have the eagles, where we lose, though I think we are the better team. wouldn't be shocked at a win, but not shocked at a blowout either.

We have Minny, who has A weapon, one, that runs. And we will stop him like we stop all RBs. We win. At home.

We have the Rams.

We have the seahawks at home...we win. Sorry, they aren't good. That ship has sailed.

We have the Pats...we probably lose but it will be close, could pull that out.


The Giants:

They play washington on the road, a divisional game with Wash in the thick of the playoff hunt.

Philly at NY, probably kill them. They aren't good but will beat us on the short week.

Dallas at Dallas, divisional game and Dallas trying to get into the playoffs. Desperate division foe.

Home vs. Carolina...trying to win that division, a solid team.

That same Minny team you tout as better than record, but in Minny.



Shane, I'll take our schedule every day over theirs.

Def would take ours. But ours isnt easy save one game IMO. We all know what that means with us though. Could be a likely loss or nailbiter.

Yea Minny has one major weapon on O. But they Also have Berrian who has the ability to make our CB's look silly. And a Defense that is probably a top 3 or 4 D in the whole NFL>

 

[D-Dogg]

you keep saying we GAVE them... does that mean when Arrington scored a TD against the Cowboys they GAVE it to him? Simply making a mistake like Warner's unpressured pick is giving the ball away. Hammering Warner and forcing the ball loose is FORCING a turnover. Taking a kickoff at your own 2 and running it back 70 yards isn't being handed anything.

They absolutely gave that TD to JJ. Terrible coverage by them. FFS, he cut back across several tacklers to get there.

Again, it goes back to defense vs. offense. JJ didn't outrun them...he saw spaces, made good cuts but they failed to execute good coverage.

he made nobody miss. He didn't outrun a guy, stutter step and beat them athletically, as Hightower did on his 30 yard TD run. He took advantage of mistakes.

The entire game of football is taking advantage of mistakes. We made a bunch and let them have great opportunity to take advantage. They are good enough to do so. We didn't force any of our own.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You didn't adress any of that, cheese. We gave them the opportunity. They didn't take it.

so, I guess every time we kick off from now on, we're giving the other team the opporunity to hurt us and every time Warner goes back to pass we're giving the other team... sorry, but a) I did address this and b) your logic here just makes so little sense and just seems to back up the point you tried to make all week which was that you were positive that we would win and that the Giants weren't all that.

Well, you know what's really funny about this conversation? The Giants WEREN'T all that today, they were down their two best offensive players, they couldn't run the ball, they had 9 penalties and yet they still came into one of the toughest places to play and beat us by more than a TD (and was up by as much as 15 in the 4th). When a team does that, they're pretty freaking good.

 

[D-Dogg]

Agree. No game is easy. Even the MNF with 9ers was tough.

True, no game is ever easy. It comes down to execution. The talent gap is tiny. Executing plays is key. Any team can beat any team. I'd roll with our schedule any damn day.

The Giants schedule is much tougher, stacked with better divisonal opponents, and divisonal opponents (especially ones with playoff hopes alive like the skins and dallas) are infinitely tougher.

Our division opponents are thinking of summer homes and groupies at this point.

 

[Zeno]

WTF? Are you serious? We have the Eagles on the road on 3 days rest. I dont care what any of you say that is gonna be one tough game.

We have a very stout and better than their record Minnesota team and The Pats on the road another east coast game with time change. Thats 3 of 5 pretty damned tough games. The Seahawks are getting healthy too. They played the skins mighty tough today on the road. This schedule is no easy minus the Rams maybe.

I agree with the Eagles & Pats being tough but the others are all more than winnable.

The way to beat the Cards is through the air and Minnesota isn't built that way. Frerotte is having a very average year, we'll contain AP just like we've done every other RB we've faced so far.

The game against the Redskins was in Seattle and as we all know Seattle plays better at home.

5 games left and we win at least 3 of those.

 

[Cheesebeef]

True, no game is ever easy. It comes down to execution. The talent gap is tiny. Executing plays is key. Any team can beat any team. I'd roll with our schedule any damn day.

The Giants schedule is much tougher, stacked with better divisonal opponents, and divisonal opponents (especially ones with playoff hopes alive like the skins and dallas) are infinitely tougher.

Our division opponents are thinking of summer homes and groupies at this point.

MUCH tougher? I see two gimmes (Rams/Hawks - although is there really a such thing as a gimme with this team) on our schedule and one on the Giants and then the rest are tough games. Difference is the Giants have shown the ability to win on the road against good teams and we have not. The G-Men probably finish 13-3. We probably finish 10-6 at best, 9-7 at worst. Ain't no way we're going into New England and winning there and I think it will be near impossible to travel to Philly and play in likely bad conditions and come out with a W. Right there you have two sure losses. There are no sure losses on the G-Men's plate. That right there gives them a leg up on us schedule wise.

 

[D-Dogg]

so, I guess every time we kick off from now on, we're giving the other team the opporunity to hurt us

Only if we fail to execute coverage schemes and miss tackles. Dumb statement cheese. Yes, we have to kick off...no, missing tackles with our guys on a guy's legs is OUR bad, not them making a play. We fail, they succeed. Wrap him up and be done with it.

and every time Warner goes back to pass we're giving the other team... sorry, but a) I did address this and

We are giving the other team the chance to bring the rush on him and cover fitz and boldin, and the odds are they beat them with superior skills, but not because Warner is going to throw the ball to the guy in the other uniform because he read the defense wrong. again, his bad on that. he made the mistake. We didn't make the play. He's more capable of making the right read with his vision and beating the defense. Was that pick because of a sick jump on the ball or great coverage? No, it was a mistake. They capitalized.

b) your logic here just makes so little sense and just seems to back up the point you tried to make all week which was that you were positive that we would win and that the Giants weren't all that.

Giants aren't all that. we kind of proved it there. They didn't blow us out, as some thought they would. They didn't destroy warner and not let him get the ball off behind our piss poor line, as some said they would. We did what I hoped we would, take the ball off the ground and put it in Eli's hands...and we failed to stop him. That's our fault there...we asked for that and he made us pay for the fact that we couldn't stop them. But I'd want that same opportunity any time we played them. It's the only way to beat them, IMO. Today, Eli beat our D. But we wouldn't stand a chance if they rolled for 190 on the ground.

Well, you know what's really funny about this conversation? The Giants WEREN'T all that today, they were down their two best offensive players, they couldn't run the ball and yet they still came into one of the toughest places to play and beat us by more than a TD (and was up by as much as 15 in the 4th). When a team does that, they're pretty freaking good

They are pretty freaking good. They aren't great. But they are the best team in the NFC, and we hung with them despite our breakdowns. We stopped them running the ball, and Jacobs would have made no difference. We had run penetration with multiple players. We would have stopped him as well. Plax out is a good argument, because he's got talent that could have been dangerous, but they had guys step up. I didn't think our secondary would stop their recievers anyway, so that point you make is moot. My thought was our defense would get pressure on Eli and force mistakes. They didn't. If they had, it wouldn't have mattered if plax was there or if Jerry Rice were there....we got no pressure. We sucked in that facet. It was where we broke down.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Giants aren't all that. we kind of proved it there. They didn't blow us out, as some thought they would.

who said they were going to blow us out? Almost everyone on the board thought it would be close or (gasp - including me) that we would WIN. And a great team doesn't have to blow someone out to be great. When a great team goes into one of the toughest places in the league to play, without it's top two offensive weapons, has 9 penalties and still wins by more than a TD that's an impressive win any way you cut it. Not giving them credit and saying it was more us giving away a home game we never had control of against a team that made a lot of mistakes AND was without their best two offensive players just doesn't pass the stink test.

They didn't destroy warner and not let him get the ball off behind our piss poor line, as some said they would.

Warner got killed all game long, threw several balls that should have been picked and had two turnovers. They did work Warner pretty good. Didn't stop the fact that Warner even getting killed is pretty damn good, but the above is just wrong. Warner's gonna be sitting in a whirlpool from now until they hop on the plane with the abuse he took today.

They are pretty freaking good. They aren't great.

potatoe, potato.

But they are the best team in the NFC, and we hung with them despite our breakdowns.

and again, you act as if there were no breakdowns on their part. Like JJ's long returns on special teams (I mean if those are breakdowns on our part, they're breakdowns on theirs also, right? or does that not apply to the Giants)... or the 9 penalties the Giants had compared to our 3?

We stopped them running the ball, and Jacobs would have made no difference. We had run penetration with multiple players. We would have stopped him as well.

sorry, but a) they didn't even try to run the ball. their game plan coming out was short controlled passing and it worked to perfection against us and then when they did need to run the ball in the fourth to bleed the clock, they did. And simply saying Jacobs (the NFC's leading rusher) wouldn't have made a difference is poppy-****. You can cite how great we've been all year, but the Ravens were better and Jacobs beat the crap out of them, softening that D up before fire and lightning took over in the 2nd half. To just say he wouldn't have made a difference against us is nothing but conjecture.

Plax out is a good argument, because he's got talent that could have been dangerous, but they had guys step up. I didn't think our secondary would stop their recievers anyway, so that point you make is moot.

so, you're saying that you didn't... forget it man.

the fact that you think that Giants playing without their best two players, while giving up long special teams returns to JJ repeatedly, having 9 penalties and going on the road in one of the most hostile environments in the league and STILL winning by more than a TD is more a reflection on us than them is beyond me.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Donald's glass is half full. Mine is half empty

 

[Cheesebeef]

Donald's glass is half full. Mine is half empty

Donald's glass is over-flowing. He still thinks we're on the same level as the Giants even though the Giants, despite not playing all that well themselves and having major injury problems beat us in our house by more than a TD.

 

[D-Dogg]

Donald's glass is half full. Mine is half empty

And that's pretty much what it breaks down to.

Maybe cheese will get it too.

His glass is half empty of cheese whiz...

I'm full up of cheese whiz.

 

[D-Dogg]

Donald's glass is over-flowing. He still thinks we're on the same level as the Giants even though the Giants, despite not playing all that well themselves and having major injury problems beat us in our house by more than a TD.

I hope you check under your bed tonight for Eli Manning.

He might be hiding in your closet, too. Don't scrimp on the Giant proofing of your room, Cheese!

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I hope you check under your bed tonight for Eli Manning.

That is creepy Burger King style.

 

[D-Dogg]

Donald's glass is over-flowing. He still thinks we're on the same level as the Giants even though the Giants, despite not playing all that well themselves and having major injury problems beat us in our house by more than a TD.

I think it is funny you tout that "more than a TD" line when we effed up on what is the most simple NFL play, an XP. But of course, it sounds more heinous when you say "more than a TD.

I want you to set the terms for our Gnats in the superbowl bet. Since they are so great and all.

 

[Cheesebeef]

And that's pretty much what it breaks down to.

yeah, it's really not. Chris and I both think the Cards are good. That's cup half full. You think Cards are just as good as the Giants (despite the G-Men playing an okay game, yet winning on the road in a hostile environment, without key players, with a score of penalities and with poor ST coverage). That's cup over-flowing.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

3-1 on the giants making the super bowl would be smart money but I wouldn't take it because it would mean ultimately betting against the Cardinals.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think it is funny you tout that "more than a TD" line when we effed up on what is the most simple NFL play, an XP. But of course, it sounds more heinous when you say "more than a TD.

we were down 15 in the fourth, 11 with 2 minutes left. In the 2nd half we were depending on an onside kick to try and save us so we could get in position to get a TD and a two point conversion. We weren't in that game at the end and it was going to take a couple miracles to pull it out. I'm not saying anything the way I am to make it sound more "heinous". It is what it is.

But even bottom line, a TD win in a hostile environment over a good team while playing without it's two best players, having committed 9 penalities, having had a bad day on special teams Kickoff return coverage is a pretty impressive win. The Giants played average today and still made it look pretty easy against us.

I want you to set the terms for our Gnats in the superbowl bet. Since they are so great and all.

whatever you want man. i don't really care.

 

[D-Dogg]

yeah, it's really not. Chris and I both think the Cards are good. That's cup half full. You think Cards are just as good as the Giants (despite the G-Men playing an okay game, yet winning on the road in a hostile environment, without key players, with a score of penalities and with poor ST coverage). That's cup over-flowing.

Yeah, it really is.

you think the Cards are good = cup half full.

No. The cards are good. They've beaten a better schedule than the giants had, to this point. They are way up in their division. They are going to win more games than they lose. They ARE good. That's just common knowledge.

You lose there.

I think the Cards are even with the Giants ON MATCHUP. We lost to them despite BOTH of us playing an ok game, and a "score" of penalties would mean 20...they did not have that. They had what, 8? Wow. Like, so un-normal. They are goth like in their non-conformity there.

We lose to them in a close game due a lot to our breakdowns on KR coverage and TOs, yet are still in the game late.. you think that puts us way out of their league (half empty) and I think it puts us right into their league (half full)

So, I'm half full. Per usual. You are half empty with a bunch of dismal deductions about this and that, per your usual.

Nothing changes. World turns. We all are still alive. Cardinals are still a good team...wait...STILL??? GOOD??? Wow, maybe things aren't the same.

 

[D-Dogg]

whatever you want man. i don't really care.

You better win some ASFN bucks because I want to collect on this one.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yeah, it really is.

you think the Cards are good = cup half full.

No. The cards are good.

uh, yes, Chris and I agree.

They've beaten a better schedule than the giants had, to this point.

Donald, we've PLAYED a tougher schedule, but that doesn't mean we've beaten a tougher schedule. The Cards are 3-4 against teams with winning records for a 42.7% winning percentage and the Giants are 5-0, and that the Giants have a better record than us at 10-1 versus our 7-4, right? So, while we might have played a tougher schedule how can you really say we've beaten a tougher schedule considering the discrepancy in victories over winning teams/overall wins period?

They are way up in their division. They are going to win more games than they lose. They ARE good. That's just common knowledge.

You lose there..

huh? How do I lose? I've said that the Cards are good.

I think the Cards are even with the Giants ON MATCHUP.

and I disagree which is why I think you're cup is over-flowing.

We lost to them despite BOTH of us playing an ok game, and a "score" of penalties would mean 20...they did not have that.

donald, a score can also means a lot (and I already CLEARLY stated MULTIPLE times earlier in the thread the actual number was NINE so please don't put numbers/alternate meanings into my mouth).

look up #12 on this dictionary link:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/score

and if both teams played ok, with all things being equal, at home, facing a team without it's two best players we should have had a better shot than depending on miracle onside kicks just to stay in the game.

They had what, 8? Wow. Like, so un-normal. They are goth like in their non-conformity there.

they had 9 and that's a lot for any team not the Cardinals. Not sure what the whole goth thing you're talking about, but whatever.

We lose to them in a close game due a lot to our breakdowns on KR coverage and TOs, yet are still in the game late.. you think that puts us way out of their league (half empty) and I think it puts us right into their league (half full)

you thought it was a close game even though we never had a single drive where we could have tied it up. That's where I think I see you as over-flowing.

And just because I think we're out of their league is more a statement about the Giants than it is the Cards. I think the Cards are a solid playoff team. I think the Giants are the Super Bowl favorites. And I think pretty much EVERYONE who's not a myopic Cardinal fan would agree with me.

So, I'm half full. Per usual. You are half empty with a bunch of dismal deductions about this and that, per your usual.

I'm still trying to figure out how saying the Cards are a playoff team but not a Super Bowl favorite is half empty. You talk about common knowledge up above. Donald, the sentence I just wrote is common knowledge. It's realism. It's not pessimism and it's not half-empty. Hell, most people out there don't even think the Cards are a legit playoff team but I do. So you can take "dismal deductions", your "look under your bed for Eli" and whatever other Nashmanian crap you want to throw at me and keep throwing it. you seem to be enjoying yourself so I'm not going to stop you.

 

[Evil Ash]

As entertaining as the Donald-cheesebeef-Chris Sanders lovefest is, I'll throw in my two cents.

The Giants beat us today because we made more mistakes than they did, plain and simple.

-Our special teams was the definition of inept and made it so they had excellent field position on a regular basis.

-We had two unforced turnovers by Warner. The INT was just horrid and the fumble was a result of him holding on to the ball for too long. I'll give credit when credit is due but these weren't caused by the Giants D, they were just horrid decisions.

- The right side of the line, particularly Sedelein and Lu'benchme' are continually get pushed back or missing assignments completely. Making it so we are still almost completely one dimensional (true we are dominant in that part of our game but its still not good to be one dimensional especially against really good teams).

- Our high risk, high reward defense came up snake eyes for the most part as we couldn't get pressure on Manning (who dinked and dunked us to death)and didn't force any turnovers. However they were able to stuff the NFL's best run game.

I'm not buying into the injury excuses for the Giants since we were missing our starting CB ourselves. There is a dropoff between Hood and Green.

Did the Giants "kick our butts"? I'd say no. We lost but they were far from dominant. Even as many mistakes as we made, it was a one possession game and had Ralph Brown recovered that onside kick we could be talking about a Cards victory in overtime.

Are the Giants better than us? At this time, absolutely.
Is the gap insurmountable? Not even close.

There is a gap sure but thankfully there is plenty of time to close it completely and possibly upset them in the playoffs.