Hibbert?

[JCSunsfan]

I know Hibbert showed very poorly in the second half of the season and playoffs. And it seems that Indy fans are ready to sell him for a bag of chips (really, straight up for Robin Lopez was considered a positive move on one site). But, he has been one of the best rim defenders in the league for most of the previous year and the first half of this year and he might be attainable.

Is that something that would be of interest? Maybe there is an injury or something. Has Hibbert been exposed or is it just a bad stretch?

Thoughts?

 

[slinslin]

not even for free

 

[SirStefan32]

Neh, I'll keep Plumlee and Len over Hibbert at this point.

 

[sunsfan88]

One of the worst contracts in the league. I think Indiana will have to trade George just to dump Hibbert's contract.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Bring him in. All Frye can do is help you win, this guy pulls down 1.5 more rebounds per 36 minutes!!! And if you come to wherever he is, he's a very good defender.

Steve

 

[Ronin]

High risk/High reward type player. I'd think its worth a shot.

 

[AzStevenCal]

High risk/High reward type player. I'd think its worth a shot.

Okay, I'm feeling a little bitter because I keep running across rumors that we're trading Dragic and I can't help connecting that to the fact that he was a lesser player when Frye was on the bench. And we parted ways with Frye, presumably because he doesn't rebound very well. Then I see the interest in Hibbert and it's bringing out the sarcastic side of me. So I'll try this nicely, in what way do you see a high reward with Hibbert? He can't defend anyone in the league unless that player runs directly to him. He has no lateral quickness and he's very slow to react. He's on the books for 15 million per for two more years. I just don't see the up-side other than the fact he's almost an average rebounder.

Steve

 

[Ronin]

Okay, I'm feeling a little bitter because I keep running across rumors that we're trading Dragic and I can't help connecting that to the fact that he was a lesser player when Frye was on the bench. And we parted ways with Frye, presumably because he doesn't rebound very well. Then I see the interest in Hibbert and it's bringing out the sarcastic side of me. So I'll try this nicely, in what way do you see a high reward with Hibbert? He can't defend anyone in the league unless that player runs directly to him. He has no lateral quickness and he's very slow to react. He's on the books for 15 million per for two more years. I just don't see the up-side other than the fact he's almost an average rebounder.

Steve

lol you've changed my point of view of him. I just thought that he was a raw player that needs a change of scenery. I also didn't see him getting a lot of shots in the Pacers offense.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Its interesting how perceptions of Hibbert have changed. A year ago, he was considered one of the better defenders in the league. Really, in the fall he was considered one of the league's top centers.

So, back to my question. Has he declined, is he in a slump, or has he been exposed for what he is?

So, BC, here is a big bulky defensive minded center, and no one wants him.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Its interesting how perceptions of Hibbert have changed. A year ago, he was considered one of the better defenders in the league. Really, in the fall he was considered one of the league's top centers.

So, back to my question. Has he declined, is he in a slump, or has he been exposed for what he is?

So, BC, here is a big bulky defensive minded center, and no one wants him.

He's been exposed but truthfully, he'd been exposed long before that deal. David Falk worked some magic and managed to get the Blazers to make an unbelievable offer for Roy and the Pacers reluctantly matched. He's always been slow. He has value but it is nowhere near his contract level and he would be a horrible match with our roster. Now, if we're keeping Tucker along with dumping Dragic and Frye and we're going to try to build a Memphis like roster in Phoenix, he wouldn't be quite so horrible of an option.

Steve

 

[sunsfan88]

Hibbert is basically a taller version of Kendrick Perkins without the leadership.

 

[Finito]

No way. His problem isn't physical it's his fragile mental state don't want guys like that on the team

 

[BC867]

So, BC, here is a big bulky defensive minded center, and no one wants him.

Well, that's not the same as a big bulky talented defensive minded center.

 

[elindholm]

Well, that's not the same as a big bulky talented defensive minded center.

Since when has talent been a requirement for you? For 20 years, you've been moaning that the Suns play SFs and PFs a position up instead of their big no-talent stiffs. Now all of a sudden you want to add talent to the equation?

 

[SirStefan32]

Well, hold on now. When we are talking about players, we have to consider money/contracts. I don't want to speak for BC, but as far as I am concerned, Hibbert is a fine Center, but he is simply grossly overpaid.

 

[BC867]

Since when has talent been a requirement for you? For 20 years, you've been moaning that the Suns don't play SFs and PFs a position up instead of their big no-talent stiffs. Now all of a sudden you want to add talent to the equation?

I always wanted Colangelo to bring in (talented) big men for C and PF instead of moving lighter players up.

Guys like James Edwards and Rich Kelley with diminished playing time because Alvan Adams at 212 lbs. had a lock on the Center position. Strong championship players like Maurice Lucas and Dennis Johnson dumped because they didn't fit the Suns "finesse" persona, which JC knew when he obtained them.

And I never moaned that "the Suns don't play SF's and PF's a position up". The problem was that, under Colangelo and MacLeod, they always played smaller guys a position up.

Unless what you posted came out the opposite of what you meant. Seriously.

"All of a sudden", I want to add talent to the equation??? That is sarcastic and untrue!

 

[elindholm]

Guys like James Edwards and Rich Kelley with diminished playing time because Alvan Adams at 212 lbs. had a lock on the Center position.

So, to be sure I understand you ... are you saying that Rich Kelley was a more talented center than Roy Hibbert?

And I never moaned that "the Suns don't play SF's and PF's a position up". The problem was that, under Colangelo and MacLeod, they always played smaller guys a position up.

Yes, the "don't" was a typo, my mistake. Sorry about that.

That is sarcastic and untrue!

No it isn't. I won't go back to the MacLeod era, because you may have a point there. But in the last quarter century, the reason the Suns' bigs have ridden the pine has been precisely because they lack talent. And you've steadfastly refused to acknowledge that.

 

[Errntknght]

Hibbert didn't look too good against us this year... heck, I think we might have somehow greased the skids for his later pratfalls. Nevertheless, he is certainly not worthless though, IMO, he isn't worth what he's being paid. Some of you guys have said he's not mobile at all, which can't be true - except for Dieng he challenged shots at the highest rate of anyone in the league, and since he played way more minutes than Gorgui he challenged the most shots. So he couldn't just stand there until someone ran right at him. His rim protection % was one of the best in league as well during the regular season though it fell off 4 pctage points in the playoffs, which is stll pretty darn good.

I agree that it had to be a problem with his psyche and I'd guess it had to with the pressure the Pacers put themselves under to knock out the Heat. Its worrisome but I think he'll come around - it may require a change of scenery to happen. The Pacers seem to be interested in making that happen but the cost of getting him is still prohibitive. Worth keeping any eye on though...

 

[Folster]

You know who would love to have Hibbert on their roster? Gregg Popovich and the Spurs.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Hibbert didn't look too good against us this year... heck, I think we might have somehow greased the skids for his later pratfalls. Nevertheless, he is certainly not worthless though, IMO, he isn't worth what he's being paid. Some of you guys have said he's not mobile at all, which can't be true - except for Dieng he challenged shots at the highest rate of anyone in the league, and since he played way more minutes than Gorgui he challenged the most shots. So he couldn't just stand there until someone ran right at him. His rim protection % was one of the best in league as well during the regular season though it fell off 4 pctage points in the playoffs, which is stll pretty darn good.

I agree that it had to be a problem with his psyche and I'd guess it had to with the pressure the Pacers put themselves under to knock out the Heat. Its worrisome but I think he'll come around - it may require a change of scenery to happen. The Pacers seem to be interested in making that happen but the cost of getting him is still prohibitive. Worth keeping any eye on though...

You're right, he couldn't just stand there till they ran to him, that was a slight exaggeration on my part. But he lacks lateral quickness. If you pull him out of the lower defensive zone to where he is no longer allowed to put his hands on his opponent he's easily neutralized. When you run your offense at him, he's one of the better defensive centers in the league. But seriously, how hard is it to just not do that?

We showed the basketball world how to neutralize him when we beat them soundly in Phoenix. Maybe nobody believed it but a few days later we handled them in Indiana the same way and Hibbert and the Pacers were a far different team for the rest of the season.

In a sane basketball universe, Hibbert would be a pretty good backup center or maybe even a starting center for the right team. We aren't the right team. I suspect the Pacers feel the same way and they are much closer to being the right team than we are.

Steve

 

[elindholm]

You know who would love to have Hibbert on their roster? Gregg Popovich and the Spurs.

But don't they already have Splitter?

God I'm funny.

 

[Folster]

But don't they already have Splitter?

God I'm funny.

That made me chuckle. That Spurs fan really got to you.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I always wanted Colangelo to bring in (talented) big men for C and PF instead of moving lighter players up.

Guys like James Edwards and Rich Kelley with diminished playing time because Alvan Adams at 212 lbs. had a lock on the Center position. Strong championship players like Maurice Lucas and Dennis Johnson dumped because they didn't fit the Suns "finesse" persona, which JC knew when he obtained them.

And I never moaned that "the Suns don't play SF's and PF's a position up". The problem was that, under Colangelo and MacLeod, they always played smaller guys a position up.

Unless what you posted came out the opposite of what you meant. Seriously.

"All of a sudden", I want to add talent to the equation??? That is sarcastic and untrue!

Dennis Johnson was was dumped because the Suns were trying to get a big man. Lucas was traded because the Suns had to go into rebuilding mode. Revisionist history here.

If the Suns were always about finesse, players like Maurice Lucas, Truck Robinson, Xavier McDaniel, and Charles Barkley never would have been on the team. They would have never drafted Armon Gilliam or William Bedford. Those two ended up failures because the Suns were looking for hulking big men instead of skilled big men. They have constantly been pursuing big men. They had Dikembe Mutombo in the bag until the NBA nixed the deal. They drafted Big Jake who was big, but nothing else. They even had one of the best ever in Shaq on the squad.

Do you think there is any doubt that the Suns would have acquired a David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Hakeem, Ewing, Mutombo, or whoever if they had the opportunity? They lost coin flips for big men, squandered draft picks on big men, traded popular players for big men (Majerle, Marion), took risky big men in the draft (Oliver Miller). The worst mistakes this team has ever made were in trying to do what you accuse them of not trying to do.

Your criticism, which you repeat over and over, is simply not true. Just because you repeat it often will not make it true. Just because you believe it does not make it true.

 

[HooverDam]

Do you think there is any doubt that the Suns would have acquired a David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Hakeem, Ewing, Mutombo, or whoever if they had the opportunity? They lost coin flips for big men, squandered draft picks on big men, traded popular players for big men (Majerle, Marion), took risky big men in the draft (Oliver Miller). The worst mistakes this team has ever made were in trying to do what you accuse them of not trying to do.

Your criticism, which you repeat over and over, is simply not true. Just because you repeat it often will not make it true. Just because you believe it does not make it true.

Amen, preach on! BC's constant moaning about the Suns lack of big men is exhausting.

The Good Lord only see's fit to put so many 6'10''+ guys who can run, jump and shoot on the planet at one time, the Suns have never been lucky enough to acquire any of them, but it's not for the lack of trying.

Everyone wants a talented big guy, that's why teams will convince themselves injuries aren't so bad and do things like Oden over Durant. Getting a franchise big guy is MUCH easier said than done, and sadly the Suns were just a coin flip away from landing the guy who was perhaps the best ever.

 

[SirStefan32]

I think people are not on the same page when arguing about this because the argument is never defined. Phoenix has tried to get big men- Miller, Tsakalidis, Lopez, Shaq, Amare, Kurt Thomas, Len, Plumlee, etc. I don't think anyone disputes that.

What the argument is about is whether you should play your five best players, or five best players according to their position. I think where BC's gripe is (and mine as well to some degree) is that the Suns have traditionally chosen to play the five best players regardless of the position. For example, the Suns chose Marion/Stoudemire as their PF/C combo instead of going with Marion at 3, Amare at 4, and Kurt Thomas at 5 (or Lopez, later on, etc)

Last year, my gripe (I think BC's as well) was not so much in Frye being the starting PF, but Frye sliding to 5 in 4th quarters while Plumlee sat on the bench after scoring 10 points and grabbing eight board in 20-24 minutes prior to the fourth quarter.