How about: Arizona Lemmings?

BradMannTX

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As much as we generally hate east-coast sports fans, I really think it's time we judge this year's team as one. We need to immediately hold everyone's feet to the fire and not accept anything less than the playoffs with a serious contention for the Superbowl...those should be our expectations every year. DG or Mac; Tobin, Bugel or Stallings...

I love this message board, but after several years of going through this with you all, I have noticed a disturbing truth: we are lemmings going over the same cliff with the same arguments every single F-ing year. The only things that change are the personnel. Those who post objective analysis are lambasted by the majority. Those who post ANY analysis against the grain are "trouted."

I had to get that off my chest after seeing a couple of rediculous threads tonight. I'll continue my regularly scheduled lurking. Thanks.
 

Ryanwb

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BradMannTX said:
As much as we generally hate east-coast sports fans, I really think it's time we judge this year's team as one. We need to immediately hold everyone's feet to the fire and not accept anything less than the playoffs with a serious contention for the Superbowl....
I agree to a point.... This team has a BRUTAL schedule, they play both Super Bowl teams and a slew of other contenders. We aren't going to be in the playoffs this season short of a miracle.
 

vikesfan

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BradMannTX said:
As much as we generally hate east-coast sports fans, I really think it's time we judge this year's team as one. We need to immediately hold everyone's feet to the fire and not accept anything less than the playoffs with a serious contention for the Superbowl...those should be our expectations every year. DG or Mac; Tobin, Bugel or Stallings...

I love this message board, but after several years of going through this with you all, I have noticed a disturbing truth: we are lemmings going over the same cliff with the same arguments every single F-ing year. The only things that change are the personnel. Those who post objective analysis are lambasted by the majority. Those who post ANY analysis against the grain are "trouted."

I had to get that off my chest after seeing a couple of rediculous threads tonight. I'll continue my regularly scheduled lurking. Thanks.

Mac, Tobin, Bugel, and Stallings all had suck @$$ records compared to DG. DG expects the playoffs - remember his 1 million dollar bonus.
DG expects to build a winner not a 1 year wonder. It seems a lot of changes have been instituted by DG from what other posters have reported. I don't think you should lump DG in with those others. The change began with him coming here. Winning Talks and BS Walks!

PS I have no idea what threads you are talking about or what you are getting at. The changes have started jump on board!
 

Pariah

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vikesfan said:
Mac, Tobin, Bugel, and Stallings all had suck @$$ records compared to DG.
Mac and Tobin helped coach the 85 Bears' defense into the history books. Bugel was responsible for the Hogs. It's not like these guys came to us without their own pedigrees--they just came to us without head coaching experience.
 

JeffGollin

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Many of us share your pain, but probably not your proposed remedy.

How do you suggest we "hold the team's feet to the fire?" We're fans. Our only weapons are (a) the jawbone and (b) the boycott (and I don't think a boycott would be productive - because it wouldn't work and the problem IMHO is not lack of commitment by ownership but more lack of "ept.")

I agree it's frustrating to listen to the same old same old on this board, but this may be actually due to a bright spot.

Check the tags of the more recent and active posters - lots of new names here (suggesting expanding fan interest). The downside of this is that many concerns and ideas raised by many old time, hard-core fans are now being repeated ad nauseum by newer fans as though they were brilliant new ideas never expressed before.

Guaranteed to happen each off-season: (1) there will be changes, and they will be heralded as "the beginning of a 'fresh new era.' (2) there will be grousing by some fans over 'good players lost', 'good FA opportunities missed' and 'bad draft decisions.' (3) A few fans will defend the team and its management regardless of the realities. (4) A few fans will bash the team and its management regardless of the realities. (5) Someone will come up with the 'brilliant new suggestion': 'Why don't we get the Bidwills to sell the team?"

The only way I see to get around this is to encourage balanced, realistic thinking that doesn't seek to predict the unpredictable and, instead, lays out objectively what we know/don't know and what we see/can't see.

And then let the cards fall as they may (no pun intended) - which is all we fans have the power to do anyway.
 

Duckjake

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Pariah said:
Mac and Tobin helped coach the 85 Bears' defense into the history books. Bugel was responsible for the Hogs. It's not like these guys came to us without their own pedigrees--they just came to us without head coaching experience.

And still didn't have any when they left us.

One of the great mysteries of the NFL is how two supposedly top defensive coaches, Tobin and Mac, couldn't field a decent defense more than once in 8 years in Arizona.
 

Red Air Force

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JeffGollin said:
the problem IMHO is not lack of commitment by ownership but more lack of "ept.")

We lack pregnancy tests? :confused: Because those things are expensive, and I should know, before I married my wife I was buying one of those like every month. I dunno if bidwill has those kind of resourses. We may need to wait until the TV money comes in to get more. :D
 
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BradMannTX

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The McCown argument sounds a lot like the Jake argument. Haven't we learned? I can see the same flashes of brilliance from Josh followed by several pukey performances topped off with another flash. We'll let him hang in there for six years and finally get pissed off about it.

Are we hanging our hat on Shipp a little to long? Have the reasons started to turn into excuses?

Why in the heck would we use ANOTHER first round pick on a wide receiver when that is arguably one of the few strengths on this team? I don't care who's draft this is. This just sticks in my craw (been in Texas too long I guess).

We're throwing all our faith unquestionably into DG...just like we did with Mac (oh well, he knows better than us)...just like we did with Buddy Ryan (sorry Vikesfan, it needs to be said, but the comparison admittedly stops there). I'm not saying that DG is the same as the others, but I am saying our predictions and our assessments are blinded by hope created by perinnial changes and not influenced by a general demand for performance.

We've all heard of coaches and players being run out on a rail by fans due to performance failure. No staff member/player has ever been scared of pissing all 84 of us off enough to even have that cross their mind.
 

Skkorpion

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Hope is all we have to hold on to.

Bradmann, are you going to be upset if we double our wins from 4 to 8 and thus post a break-even or better record for only the 3rd time in 17 years?

Not me. I'll be thrilled.
 

MadCardDisease

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BradMannTX said:
Why in the heck would we use ANOTHER first round pick on a wide receiver when that is arguably one of the few strengths on this team? I don't care who's draft this is. This just sticks in my craw (been in Texas too long I guess).
Since when did WR become a strength of the team. Aside from Boldin and maybe Johnson we don't have any depth at the position. Last time I checked teams usually start at least 2 WR and often play with 3. Personally I don't think we are strong at any position.
 

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Some of the trends and posts may well be regurgitation. But, the botton line is that most everone posting here is a Cards fan and is enjoying what their doing. You cannot fault that. I'm sure everyone appreciates having this message board, as there is none other like it for Cards fans!!
 

seesred

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Take a deep inhale of good Arizona air. DG is our first winning head coach(Buddy RYan not counted ) that we have had here from Sept of 88 till now. Most of our coaches have been promotions and almost all didn't work out. Bugel IMO was the closest. If DG's team loses it wont be becuase of lack of ability at the coaches level.

Shipp if given a good ofensive plan(see coaches) can excel in this league. This is the first year he is starting as the number one I believe.

WE need many things, one of those is in fact another top WR. WE have Q and Johnson and then ???????? In order for Shiupp to have a good year we have to be able to show multiple attack potential.

Jake and Joas are not the same. Jake came in a state hero. Josh a third round pick. Jake had a lot of ups and many downs but for the most part we loved him. Josh is bigger, stronger and has a far better arm then Jake. The few games he has played are not an indication of what he can do, if DG says the kid can win he is in a much better position than I will ever be to make that call.

I'm looking foward to all the changes and I'm excited for the first time in four years about our chaces to build a team that is respected in this town.
 

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MadCardDisease, what Brad is saying is not that our WR corp is stronger than the rest of the league, it's not. He's saying compared to our team units, the WR corp is stronger than the rest. I agree with that.

If you took WR, RB's, QB's, DLine, OLine, LB's, TE, Secondary, and Special Teams and put them in order strongest to weakest, which would you put first?

It sure as hell wouldn't be anything on our defense.

That's the point those of use who are against taking a WR first round are desperately trying to make. We can get Evans, Woods, Clayton or Jenkins in the second round. Would they be as good as Fitz or Williams? Well, realistically, they could, we have no idea if Roy Williams is the next Desmond Howard or not, just like we don't know if Rashaun Woods is the next Quan. Even if the top 3 WR's are head and shoulders above the second tier WR's in the draft, drafting one of these second tier wideouts would improve our WR corp and the team as a whole.

Not only do we still not have a lockdown corner in the pass wackiest division in the NFL, but we don't even have a #1 corner. No, I don't count Starks, this isn't Madden '04 where you can just say "oh he's rated a 90, we're good to go", the man hasn't played in almost a season and a half. Macklin was a good addition but grabing a few tipped passes in one game (even though it happened to be the AFC Championship game) does not immediately make you a #1 corner.

We also talk about getting Winslow Jr. And the inevitable comparison to Shockey and Heap comes out. To that I say

A) The Baltimore offense sucked even with Heap, in fact they sucked so bad that it's probably why Heap gets so many grabs. Go to footballoutsiders.com, read about their efficiency ratings (they won't make sense unless you do) then look at the offensive efficieny ratings for the NFL in 2003, the one team worse than us is Baltimore. And thats WITH a 2000 yard rusher.

B) Shockey had another good year, and the Giants WR corp as a whole is probably a little better than ours. Their QB is better, and Tiki still produces yards despite having the fumbley bumblies. And guess what, despite the Giants offensive units being across the board better than ours (except Oline, they are both sad) the Giants still ended up 4-12 like us. Why? No special teams. Carolina basically made the playoffs and by extension the Super Bowl becuase of their clutch special teams.

Once you're done checking out the offensive efficiency ratings, take a look at the defensive efficieny ratings, IT MAKES OUR OFFENSIVE EFFICIENCY LOOK GOOD. We are dead last in defensive efficieny.

Do I even need to point out how our Oline is paid better than they play. McCown sacked 25 times in three starts (I know they didn't all come in the three starts), are you kidding me? Before you throw out the "Season was over" line, ask yourself if that's the kind of attitude you want protecting your QB.

And while we're talking about how our recievers don't have depth, tell me where we DO have depth. We have one FA starter on the DLine and a bunch of second stringers fighting for the rest of the starting spots. We have two solid LB's in Thompson and McKinnon. Unfortuneatly we don't know if one will be able to stay out of trouble and the other is getting old. Do we have suitable backups for these guys?

But no, we absolutely positively have to have Fitz at #3. Is anyone familiar with the Pythagorean Theory of Baseball? Where you can pretty much predict a teams record based on runs scored and allowed? Well, you can do it for football too. The formula is (points for)^1.82/((points for^1.82) + (points allowed^1.82))

Using this formula the projected record for AZ in 2003 was between 3-13 and 4-12. Which is magically how we did. Very rarely is this formula off by more than two games and is a great idicator of teams that either get lucky wins or win alot of close games (or don't win as often as they should). Case in point, Carolina points for and allowed projected to a 8-8 record. But because they were so clutch on Special teams (winning games by a mere few points because of them) they became one of the few teams in history to outscore their Pythagorean record by three games.

Now, let's suppose we take Fitz and now we have a top recieving corp. Let's also assume Fitz has his amazing streak continue of TD's, and for the hell of it lets say Boldin keeps pace this year with Fitz. Thats 16x7 + 8x7 more points scored. Let's also assume our defense sucks again this year and gives up as many points. Our projected record is now between 6-10 and 7-9, not bad.

Now, let's assume we don't take Fitz, but a second round wideout instead. This wideout gives us a modest 5 TD's this year and Bodin improves to let's say 12 TD's. That's 4x7 + 5x7 more points scored. Now let's assume instead of getting shelled for FOUR TD'S EVERY SINGLE GAME, like we averaged last year, we bring it down to only a 21 point beat down. That's 7x16 less points allowed. Suprise surprise. The projected wins is IDENTICAL.

The difference is, scenerio two is FAR more likely to occur than having two guys with 1 year NFL experience combined grabbing a combined 32 TD's

Scenerio two also assumes we still have a bad defense, just nowhere near as bad as last years.

Scenerio two would allow us to trade down, getting more picks and maybe even a player. Either way we can use the additional picks and player to improve defense (even less points scored) or pick up more offensive players who may not have the individual production of Fitz, but OVERALL will score us more points.

And the real sad thing is, we could trade down and STILL get either Williams.

But no, Fitz is the only answer. :rolleyes:

I think I've ranted enough.
 

vikesfan

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BradMannTX said:

The McCown argument sounds a lot like the Jake argument. Haven't we learned? I can see the same flashes of brilliance from Josh followed by several pukey performances topped off with another flash. We'll let him hang in there for six years and finally get pissed off about it.
RESPONSE: This is comparing apples to oranges. DG had nothing to do with Plummer in any way. If DG was the coach who says he drafts Plummer and who says he sticks with Plummer. DG showed he knew how to draft and bring in winning QBs and when they were done he dumped them. Josh gets one year - heck if he sucks he might not even get one season. To equate Josh to Plummer holds no water. Plummer played games for years. Josh has played 3 games - "played" as in thrown to the wolves. Let's see how he does with a year of proper training, a year of maturity, a year of a QB friendly system.


QUOTE: Are we hanging our hat on Shipp a little to long? Have the reasons started to turn into excuses?
RESPONSE: You can't change every player over night. He will get is chance this year. There might be a RB taken by the Cards to push him even a high as #33. There might be a trade for Dillon. The Cards have bigger holes then Shipp.
If he fails he will be replaced next year - if he succeeds the Cards will become a winner faster.


QUOTE: Why in the heck would we use ANOTHER first round pick on a wide receiver when that is arguably one of the few strengths on this team? I don't care who's draft this is. This just sticks in my craw (been in Texas too long I guess).
RESPONSE: Because DG knows who to draft. Because DG knows how to build a team. Because DG runs a lot of 3 and 4 WR sets. Because DG said he will take BPA. Because DG knows a team builds on its strengths.


QUOTE: We're throwing all our faith unquestionably into DG...just like we did with Mac (oh well, he knows better than us)...just like we did with Buddy Ryan (sorry Vikesfan, it needs to be said, but the comparison admittedly stops there). I'm not saying that DG is the same as the others, but I am saying our predictions and our assessments are blinded by hope created by perinnial changes and not influenced by a general demand for performance.
RESPONSE: Again DG is one of the best coaches in NFL history when he resigned he was in the top 10 in winning percentage in the history of the NFL. When he came back he has the 5th best current winning percentage (4th if Gibbs stays out). He deserves the faith. Would you be talking this way if his name was Parcells, Cowher, Gruden (pre-SB), Gibbs, Reid etc .
Now there is a demand for performance something changed the Cards have a new stadium they need to fill it. They hired DG. It has started this is NOT the same old thing - even if it doesn't work - it was not business as usual at all.

QUOTE: We've all heard of coaches and players being run out on a rail by fans due to performance failure. No staff member/player has ever been scared of pissing all 84 of us off enough to even have that cross their mind.
RESPONSE: Can't you at least have the decency to wait until he losses a game. Seriously you want the dude fired before he has coached 1 game. My God you realize the Cards will probably have a losing season this year. You think firing coaches after 1 year is a good idea? Who will you replace him with none of the 4 guys ahead of him on the list will be coming here EVER.
 

Duckjake

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BMTx, being from Texas you may understand this. Mack Brown has caught a lot of flack because he hasn't won a championship. However the simple coaching change took Texas from an annual 6-5 team under McWilliams and Mackovic to 10-3 or 11-2 every year.

OU won like 7 conference games total in the first 3 years of the BIG XII, switched to Stoops and two years later had a National Championship.

Houston has fallen on extremely hard times, brings in Art Briles and is not only competitive but entertaining as well. Students have to go to the games hours ahead of time to get a decent seat.

Dallas hires Parcells and goes from 5-11 and losing to the Cardinals to a winning record in one season.

The football people that I play golf with, mostly old Jets from the '68 SuperBowl team, dissed Ryan (big time),Tobin and McGinnis. They like the Green hire.

That is why I'm hyped for 2004. And even better I have season tix right behind the dvl and AZCARDS 21.

What more could a guy want?
 
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BradMannTX

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MadCardDisease said:
Since when did WR become a strength of the team. Aside from Boldin and maybe Johnson we don't have any depth at the position. Last time I checked teams usually start at least 2 WR and often play with 3. Personally I don't think we are strong at any position.
I agree...we aren't strong at any position, but if you were to pick a bright spot, it would have to be wide receiver. If there is no one to throw it to 'em, how will they be able to do their job?

You caught me, I'm in the Eli camp -- or should I say the NOT-A-WR camp. I'd be equally as pleased with stacking the Defense by trading down if BPA is how we're going to draft.

During the Boston debacle, someone made the statement that WRs are a dime a dozen. I agree. You come along a good WR often and a decent one even more often. WRs have less impact that RBs or QBs. Even with Quan's great numbers last year, he had NO impact on the Ws. I don't think two Quans alone would change things either.
 
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BradMannTX

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vikesfan said:

heck if he sucks he might not even get one season. To equate Josh to Plummer holds no water. Plummer played games for years. Josh has played 3 games - "played" as in thrown to the wolves. Let's see how he does with a none of the 4 guys ahead of him on the list will be coming here EVER.

SNIP...
Let me make this clear Vikesfan, I absolutely think DG appears to be exactly what this team needs. I am as hopeful as everyone for long-term success. My point of this thread was not aimed at DG, but instead is aimed at the overwhelming unquestioning mentality that has gotten us into trouble before...over and over and over and over again.

I think we are headed down the Jake road again. Your response addresses exactly what I'm saying. Should we let Josh suck it up for several years after showing just enough to keep his job? When it is PRECISELY like the Jake situation, it will be too late.

I'm speaking more of riding MAC out on a rail sooner than we did...is RG's train coming soon? I wasn't even thinking about DG, honestly.

I know hope is all we have left, but geez, I guess I'm frustrated and jaded by the "here we go again" that I've noticed and frankly, I don't know if it'll end up any different by the days end. I'm still a fan to the end, but I just wanted a discussion on the topic.
 

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