How close are the Cards? Really.

[CardShark]

We all know that the Cards have some real talent on the team, but is their lack of talent and depth in other areas preventing them from being true contenders? Are they ready to take the leap, a few players away or merely close enough to be a tease? If they can't put enough talent together right now to challenge, will they have enough time to assemble it before they begin to lose what they already have? We have absolute competitors in Boldin, Fitz, Leinart, James, Wilson and Warner. How much patience do they have to give to an organization in the hopes of pursuing championships?

The reason I ask these questions is I wonder if the Cards realize that each of these players have a shelf life. What is their timeline? Do they hope to get there merely by banking on the draft with a few F/A signings thrown in or will they get aggressive in assembling a team in the near future? Do they believe they are close with the players they have? I think when most of us look at this team we still see alot of weak areas. I don't think you can get there quick enough by merely landing one or two quality players in each draft. I think we have players that can provide depth for a contender, but we still need more talent in key areas, particularly on the defensive side of the ball, if we are to be a real threat.

I think we could be that threat if we were to land quality at LB and CB. I really feel that our linebacking corps is going to determine the fate of this team for a long time to come. If it's not addressed soon it will tear away what strenghths we do have. Making trades is something I feel the Cards need to do to get out of the cycle of always being close. I see a team like the Patriots and wonder if we'll ever get there. Sure they built alot of their success through the draft, but at one point they made moves to hasten the building process. They weren't afraid to move good players to get draft picks. They weren't afraid to trade picks for future picks and maybe more importantly not use a pick when they didn't feel they needed to.


My real question is, "Are the Cards acting with a sense of urgency?"

 

[kerouac9]

I was going to do a blog post on this. It's interesting. I think that we can all agree that this is a pretty talented Cards roster, but I think that's only in comparison to the Cards' rosters of the past. One thing that Denny did that made a lot of sense is that he said that you have to compare your starters not to themselves, but to the starters in the rest of the division. Based on that, how talented are the Cards really?

QB: Hasselbeck and Bulger are clearly ahead of Leinart, who might be mildly ahead of Alex Smith. 3rd

RB: Stephen Jackson is the class of the division as an all-around weapon, followed closely by Frank Gore. You could argue that Edge is better than Shaun Alexander, but either way, they're not tops in the division. 3rd

WR1: Torry Holt is a clear-cut HOF candidate and a player who keeps opposing DCs up at night. Anquan Boldin presents physical challenges for opposing defenders, but not really a strategic challenge. Darrel Jackson is a strong but inconsistent player, and Deion Branch is playoff proven. 2nd

WR2: Larry Fitzgerald is easily the best player at this position, and can only hope to have the kind of career that Issac Bruce has enjoyed. D.J. Hackett and Arnez Battle are the best of what remains. 1st

TE: Randy McMichael is an established star from Miami who re-joins his old coordinator in St. Louis. Vernon Davis is an intriguing talent. Marcus Pollard has a history of contributing. Leonard Pope remains an enigma. 4th

OLT: Walter Jones and Orlando Pace may both be headed to the Hall of Fame for their performances in their careers. Jonas Jennings is an established player in the NFL. Mike Gandy is on his third team in as many years. 4th

OLG: Larry Allen may be slowing with time, but he's also headed to Canton and is a leader for the entire San Francisco line. Reggie Wells at least has a history if performance, while Rob Sims in Seattle and Mark Setterstrom in St. Louis are unproven commodoties. 2nd

C: Erich Heitmann is an accomplished starter for the 49ers, and Al Johnson has proven himself in the NFL. Chris Spencer and Andy McColloum are having to prove themselves in their respective training camps. 2nd

ORG: Richie Incognito is a firey leader in St. Louis, while Justin Smiley has held off highly regarded draft choice Dave Baas in San Francisco. Deuce Lutui is still learning the game, while Chris Gray is a veteran in decline. 3rd

ORT: Seattle thought enough of Sean Locklear to give him a first-round tender as a restricted free agent, and Alex Barron can be a solid contributor in St. Louis. While Levi Brown is not a known commodity at RT, surely he cannot be the disaster that Kwame Harris has been for San Francisco. 3rd

So there you go. We're pretty clearly a middling team, talent-wise, on offense--our strongest unit. The sad part is that we're arguably even worse on the defensive side of the ball.

 

[CardShark]

What's sad to see is the 49er's being aggressive and arguably moving ahead of the Cards, who were projected to challenge 2 years ago. At some point they need to get aggressive.

 

[Redheart]

I was going to do a blog post on this. It's interesting. I think that we can all agree that this is a pretty talented Cards roster, but I think that's only in comparison to the Cards' rosters of the past. One thing that Denny did that made a lot of sense is that he said that you have to compare your starters not to themselves, but to the starters in the rest of the division. Based on that, how talented are the Cards really?

QB: Hasselbeck and Bulger are clearly ahead of Leinart, who might be mildly ahead of Alex Smith. 3rd

RB: Stephen Jackson is the class of the division as an all-around weapon, followed closely by Frank Gore. You could argue that Edge is better than Shaun Alexander, but either way, they're not tops in the division. 3rd

WR1: Torry Holt is a clear-cut HOF candidate and a player who keeps opposing DCs up at night. Anquan Boldin presents physical challenges for opposing defenders, but not really a strategic challenge. Darrel Jackson is a strong but inconsistent player, and Deion Branch is playoff proven. 2nd

WR2: Larry Fitzgerald is easily the best player at this position, and can only hope to have the kind of career that Issac Bruce has enjoyed. D.J. Hackett and Arnez Battle are the best of what remains. 1st

TE: Randy McMichael is an established star from Miami who re-joins his old coordinator in St. Louis. Vernon Davis is an intriguing talent. Marcus Pollard has a history of contributing. Leonard Pope remains an enigma. 4th

OLT: Walter Jones and Orlando Pace may both be headed to the Hall of Fame for their performances in their careers. Jonas Jennings is an established player in the NFL. Mike Gandy is on his third team in as many years. 4th

OLG: Larry Allen may be slowing with time, but he's also headed to Canton and is a leader for the entire San Francisco line. Reggie Wells at least has a history if performance, while Rob Sims in Seattle and Mark Setterstrom in St. Louis are unproven commodoties. 2nd

C: Erich Heitmann is an accomplished starter for the 49ers, and Al Johnson has proven himself in the NFL. Chris Spencer and Andy McColloum are having to prove themselves in their respective training camps. 2nd

ORG: Richie Incognito is a firey leader in St. Louis, while Justin Smiley has held off highly regarded draft choice Dave Baas in San Francisco. Deuce Lutui is still learning the game, while Chris Gray is a veteran in decline. 3rd

ORT: Seattle thought enough of Sean Locklear to give him a first-round tender as a restricted free agent, and Alex Barron can be a solid contributor in St. Louis. While Levi Brown is not a known commodity at RT, surely he cannot be the disaster that Kwame Harris has been for San Francisco. 3rd

So there you go. We're pretty clearly a middling team, talent-wise, on offense--our strongest unit. The sad part is that we're arguably even worse on the defensive side of the ball.

...and here we have an example of an excellent response by K-9 to a excellent starting post.

Currently, this thread gets four stars...can it get better?

 

[Cheesebeef]

if we had a competent GM, I'd say we were one year away from being a serious contender for the division and with as weak as the conference is, a possible surprise contender for the Super Bowl. However, we don't have what I believe to be a competent GM, but with the talent on this team, likely another high draft pick, few possible FA losses and a lot of cap room next year, I think we're a year away from likely being a wild-card contender.

right now - we're a below mediocre team, mostly due to a lack of playmakers in the secondary and a below average pass rush. the defense will kill this team this year IMO.

 

[lobo]

if we had a competent GM, I'd say we were
right now - we're a below mediocre team, mostly due to a lack of playmakers in the secondary and a below average pass rush. the defense will kill this team this year IMO.

.


Good points. Simply put where we have strength we are average to good. Where we are weak, including pass rush, DB's and LB's we are woefully weak and will be what kills the season. Yeah, Adrian is outstanding, Dansby can play way above average, but beyond that the group as a whole is NOT playoff caliber. As much as I like to be optomistic I am realistic. We will not win every offensive shootout we get into.

 

[CardShark]

K9,

I agree with all of your assestments, but in the end I think you have to compare the unit as a whole. Who would you rate as the best overall offensive and defensive units? It's not even that easy anymore as I feel all four teams are developing strong offensive units.

I have to give the edge to the Rams, as long as Bulger, Holt, Bruce and Jackson can be effective, but the receivers are aging and it won't be long before they hurt more than help. Jackson is the primer for them. McMichael gives them an outlet. Their coaching is still a question mark to me.

Next I go with the Cards even though they have to lay it all on the line, (pun intended). Their youth and talent make it likely that they'll dominate for years. Edge may actually hurt them with his lack of speed, but he's the best back we've had in too many years to think about. I would love to see them pick up a back like Jackson in next years draft. I'm not sold on Bryant Johnson ever fully develpoing for us, in fact I think he'll be gone after this year, but Breaston is intriguing. If he can make the catches and moves into the 3rd WR spot, this team is even more of a threat than the Rams. Even though the coaches have not won a game yet, even in preseason, I feel very confident about them. We may actually have one of the best staffs in the league.


Third I have to give to the Seahawks, only due to the fact that they've won more than anyone else in recent years. I just don't get excited about them. Were they really that good or was it that everyone else sucked. I choose the latter. Hasselback is a solid QB, but I still don't like who he has to throw to. Alexander doesn't seem like the back he was before his injury and losing Hutchinson. They are weak at TE. Coaches are proven and consistent.


The 49er's are on the verge if they have the receivers, which I don't think they do yet. Smith might turn out to be a very competent QB. If Gore isn't hampered by injuries, he might be great. Vernon Davis could be huge once they get the WR position stocked. They have a solid o-line that will give Smith a comfort zone. Coaching staff appears to be on the right track.


Given the head to head comparison, take alook at the defenses that'll challenge those offenses.

All of a sudden the 49er's appear to have the edge, that's if they shored up their secondary. Their front seven have the ability to dominate if they play up to their capabilities.

The Seahawks are probably next as they seem to be more of a complete unit, but I think age is creeping in on them.

I think the Cards edge out the Rams, but only slightly.

 

[CardShark]

if we had a competent GM, I'd say we were one year away from being a serious contender for the division and with as weak as the conference is, a possible surprise contender for the Super Bowl. However, we don't have what I believe to be a competent GM, but with the talent on this team, likely another high draft pick, few possible FA losses and a lot of cap room next year, I think we're a year away from likely being a wild-card contender.

right now - we're a below mediocre team, mostly due to a lack of playmakers in the secondary and a below average pass rush. the defense will kill this team this year IMO.

That's the whole point. Does our front office know when to make the right moves? Will Graves ever grasp it? Will it just be more of the same, "we'll build through the draft" as we wach our current talent disappear through free agency, age and injuries?

 

[Divide Et Impera]

We'll still end up 5-11....

 

[Skkorpion]

Sorry, none of you have any real feel for how these players will do in this system. You can't because we haven't seen anything yet that matters.

So you're guessing, based on the Cards wretched past, that the future will look the same. I can't blame you.

But where is the hope? This pitiful wallowing in woe-is-me misery gets tiring. Didn't we go 4-2 in the NFCW last year? So how did we suddenly fall so far behind those other three teams in one off-season.

 

[jefftheshark]

Sorry, none of you have any real feel for how these players will do in this system. You can't because we haven't seen anything yet that matters.

So you're guessing, based on the Cards wretched past, that the future will look the same. I can't blame you.

But where is the hope? This pitiful wallowing in woe-is-me misery gets tiring. Didn't we go 4-2 in the NFCW last year? So how did we suddenly fall so far behind those other three teams in one off-season.

The answer is that we didn't. We might be poised to do some really great things.

It's just scary, however, that we have lost in the preseason to two of the worst bottom feeding teams in the league.

So far, I can rationalize this as being Boyd's fault. But it is hard to generate a true warm and fuzzy feeling about this team until I see something that shows we have actually turned the corner.

JTS

 

[football karma]

I was going to do a blog post on this. It's interesting. I think that we can all agree that this is a pretty talented Cards roster, but I think that's only in comparison to the Cards' rosters of the past. One thing that Denny did that made a lot of sense is that he said that you have to compare your starters not to themselves, but to the starters in the rest of the division. Based on that, how talented are the Cards really?

QB: Hasselbeck and Bulger are clearly ahead of Leinart, who might be mildly ahead of Alex Smith. 3rd

RB: Stephen Jackson is the class of the division as an all-around weapon, followed closely by Frank Gore. You could argue that Edge is better than Shaun Alexander, but either way, they're not tops in the division. 3rd

WR1: Torry Holt is a clear-cut HOF candidate and a player who keeps opposing DCs up at night. Anquan Boldin presents physical challenges for opposing defenders, but not really a strategic challenge. Darrel Jackson is a strong but inconsistent player, and Deion Branch is playoff proven. 2nd

WR2: Larry Fitzgerald is easily the best player at this position, and can only hope to have the kind of career that Issac Bruce has enjoyed. D.J. Hackett and Arnez Battle are the best of what remains. 1st

TE: Randy McMichael is an established star from Miami who re-joins his old coordinator in St. Louis. Vernon Davis is an intriguing talent. Marcus Pollard has a history of contributing. Leonard Pope remains an enigma. 4th

OLT: Walter Jones and Orlando Pace may both be headed to the Hall of Fame for their performances in their careers. Jonas Jennings is an established player in the NFL. Mike Gandy is on his third team in as many years. 4th

OLG: Larry Allen may be slowing with time, but he's also headed to Canton and is a leader for the entire San Francisco line. Reggie Wells at least has a history if performance, while Rob Sims in Seattle and Mark Setterstrom in St. Louis are unproven commodoties. 2nd

C: Erich Heitmann is an accomplished starter for the 49ers, and Al Johnson has proven himself in the NFL. Chris Spencer and Andy McColloum are having to prove themselves in their respective training camps. 2nd

ORG: Richie Incognito is a firey leader in St. Louis, while Justin Smiley has held off highly regarded draft choice Dave Baas in San Francisco. Deuce Lutui is still learning the game, while Chris Gray is a veteran in decline. 3rd

ORT: Seattle thought enough of Sean Locklear to give him a first-round tender as a restricted free agent, and Alex Barron can be a solid contributor in St. Louis. While Levi Brown is not a known commodity at RT, surely he cannot be the disaster that Kwame Harris has been for San Francisco. 3rd

So there you go. We're pretty clearly a middling team, talent-wise, on offense--our strongest unit. The sad part is that we're arguably even worse on the defensive side of the ball.

The interesting part is that this analysis would have pretty much been true for a year ago at this time -- yet the Cardinals managed to go 4-2 in the division. While two of those wins were against the 49ers, the Cards did split with Seattle and St Louis.

 

[CardShark]

Sorry, none of you have any real feel for how these players will do in this system. You can't because we haven't seen anything yet that matters.

So you're guessing, based on the Cards wretched past, that the future will look the same. I can't blame you.

But where is the hope? This pitiful wallowing in woe-is-me misery gets tiring. Didn't we go 4-2 in the NFCW last year? So how did we suddenly fall so far behind those other three teams in one off-season.

Last year is really hard to use as basis for evaluation. How much do we attribute to coaching, players or the front office? I think there was good, bad and ugly in all three areas. So did we improve in those areas? Coaching has to be a definite upgrade. I think we added some good players, while at the same time failing to improve what I think will become our achilles heel this season, the LB corps. Graves was promoted, so that leaves us in the same place we were. While I think the draft went well, you have to question some of the personnel decisions. That brings about what the thread is about, how close are we and is the front office aggressive enough to make the moves to get us out that almost cycle. I think that if we had a solid LB corps we would looking to take the division and make the playoffs. Losing Okeafor really hurts. If we are as close as I'm suggesting, does the F/O see it and are they willing to make those moves?

So aside from the coaching upgrade, how much did the Cards improve in the offseason? They picked up a good CB. They might have improved at safety. They might have upgraded DT. So far I think they traded off on the O-Line. They have a definite upgrade in the return man.

Even though we were 4-2 in our division, it doesn't put us at the top. Do you think anyone improved more than us? I do. I think the 49er's were aggressive and it will pay dividends this season. I think their defense is going to be very good.

Hopefully we have players that are underrated and were merely casualties of bad coaching. If that's the case, then we should win more than the division.

 

[conraddobler]

We had the best record in our division.

We sucked at road and non conference games.

Young and talented and poorly coached, which we fixed the poorly coached part IMO.

My honest opinion is that we're second in the division by a hair, maybe not depending on how the Seahags actually do this year.

 

[kerouac9]

The interesting part is that this analysis would have pretty much been true for a year ago at this time -- yet the Cardinals managed to go 4-2 in the division. While two of those wins were against the 49ers, the Cards did split with Seattle and St Louis.

I would agree with you, but Alex Smith has another year under his belt in SF, we didn't face Orlando Pace and Andy McCollum in the games against St. Louis, and the entire defense for the Seahawks was playing at half-power.

If you really think that the NFC West is as bad as we saw last year... well, you're in for a surprise this season.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

When you rank the coaching and front office/organizations the Cards have to be ranked near the bottom. Front office/organization they are #4 in the division and it's not even close. Coaching staff wise you almost have to put the Cards 4th until the staff proves itself when the games count. On paper, they have a staff tha i would rank #3 right now. I think Seattle and Holmgrem are a clear #1 and you could make an argument for the other 3 spots. I give the nod for #2 to SF just because they have a couple years in their system. I think Linehan and St. Louis have the worst staff.I guess i'm basing that on my dislike for Linehan's constant whining on the sidelines every game i see him.

I wonder if the Cards will ever just "go for it" one year. Go out and hire a respected, competent GM and tell them to do what they want/need to win that particular year. I doubt that, if they didn't do it this year with the Super Bowl being a home game, they ever will.

 

[BACH]

I would agree with you, but Alex Smith has another year under his belt in SF, we didn't face Orlando Pace and Andy McCollum in the games against St. Louis, and the entire defense for the Seahawks was playing at half-power.

If you really think that the NFC West is as bad as we saw last year... well, you're in for a surprise this season.

Overall, I agree, but I think it's a bit of a reach to say that the Seahawks played half-power against us. Ceteris Paribus, you have to assume that everyone in the gives it a full effort and the weak Seahawks D was due to a good Cards D.

With the exception of RT, I agree with your ranking, but can you really use these rankings to evaluate this team's chances? I mean what good is Gore's higher ranking, when their WRs are terrible?

 

[Garthshort]

Rankings

K9, I have no argument on the positions you listed. However, since the QB is so important and injuries are such a big part of the game, I believe we should look at the backup QB's. And naturally, IMO, KW is #1, and Ferotte is probably ahead of Wallace for #2, with the SF (not sure who that is) QB, #4. Last year, I know that Leinart and Hasselbeck were injured and I think that Bulger was also. Not sure about Smith.

 

[blindseyed]

We're closer to 6-10 than 10-6 if that's what ya mean by "how close are we"
What I've seen of the 1st team (so far) I'm still sticking with my original 6-10 record for this year.

 

[JeffGollin]

How close are the Cards? Really.
That's why you play the games.

 

[Cheesebeef]

This pitiful wallowing in woe-is-me misery gets tiring.

jesus Skkorp - what the heck is your problem? Calling out people as pitiful and woe-is-me is pretty ridiculous considering how you yourself have trashed several players on defense lately. I know it's your board, but sheesh is this kind of stuff realy necessary?

 

[Second Deck]

I do not think I would trade our offense for any other in the division. You can single out individule players but as a whole I think we are at the top with Seattle. I also think the only defense I would trade with might be Seattles. I expect the Cards to win the division this year. The Oline is still a question mark but I think we be improved. This will be a 9-7 year.

 

[Hollywood]

I think the truth is that there is no way to know how we stand up to the rest of the division. We have a new coach and a new system. I personally think that we have the talent to win the division but if the system doesn't take advantage of our strenghts then we are going to be at the bottom again. I have faith that the system is going to work but untill we get 3-4 games into the season we will not know what we have.

 

[CardLogic]

jesus Skkorp - what the heck is your problem? Calling out people as pitiful and woe-is-me is pretty ridiculous considering how you yourself have trashed several players on defense lately. I know it's your board, but sheesh is this kind of stuff realy necessary?

There has been some good discussion in this thread. However, I do feel that, in general, many posters tend to diminish other teams weaknesses while overly accentuating their strengths. Whereas, regarding the Cardinals, and the nearly intimate knowledge of them I think the tendency is to over-stress and be overly critical of their deficiencies.

Regarding the Cardinals sense of urgency as questioned in the initial post of this thread, the organization doesn't have a history of agressiveness regarding personnel moves. Nor does the front office have the experience doing so. Given that I imagine they are hesitant to do so.

Currently - As much as I like the Cardinals having Bryant Johnson as the #3 WR, if they aren't working on giving him an extension, then they ought to be working on trade scenarios.

Because if they allow Johnson to get to FA, he will be gone with no compensation to the Cardinals, which is definitely a continuation of the past history of this team.

 

[football karma]

I would agree with you, but Alex Smith has another year under his belt in SF, we didn't face Orlando Pace and Andy McCollum in the games against St. Louis, and the entire defense for the Seahawks was playing at half-power.

If you really think that the NFC West is as bad as we saw last year... well, you're in for a surprise this season.

yes, but things werent exactly perfect for the Cardinals at the time either --particulalry the last half of the year, when each of those NFC West teams were playing for their playoff lives and the Cardinals were led by a head coach who was a dead man walking.