How Good Is Kobe?

[George O'Brien]

Kobe Bryant is a super premium player with 3 rings. He is young, athletic and can absolutely take over a game. But some people are describing him as the next Michael Jordan. Is he?

You could certainly not tell based on this year's results. Yes, he is distracted with the rape case and has to adjust to new teammates, but none the less:

22.2 ppg
42.2% from the field
34.5% for 3's
86.2% free throws
4.9 rpg
4.3 apg
1.8 steals per game

Here is Shawn Marion's

18.4 ppg
43% from the field (career of 46.2%)
29.4% for three (career of 35.1%)
88.5% free throws
9.3 rpg
2.5 apg
1.75 steals per game

Both players are down from the last year. No one is claiming that Shawn Marion is a super premium franchise player, but if Shawn was hitting his 3's like he did last year his numbers would be pretty close to Kobe's.

Since Kobe is scheduled to make $2 million more next year than Shawn and everyone agrees Shawn is overpaid, then shouldn't Kobe's numbers be proportionately higher?

 

[PhiLLmattiC]

No.

 

[frdbtr]

Micheal Jordon was a 50% career field goal Shooter. Kobe has never been 50% for even 1 season. Micheal Jordon would get his 30 pts from 20 shots while Kobe gets his 30 with 40 shots. There is no comparison (except in Kobe's mind).

 

[fordronken]

Anyone who has ever watched Marion in a few Suns game and watched Kobe in a few Laker games would be able to tell that these stats don't mean much of anything.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by frdbtr
There is no comparison (except in Kobe's mind).

Come on. Are you now saying that you know what Kobe is thinking? That's a pretty good trick.

And regarding all this "Kobe thinks he's Michael Jordan" stuff. When has he said that? I'm confused about that. Everyone wants to compare the two, many on the supposed fact that Kobe has compared himself. When and how much?

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by frdbtr
Micheal Jordon was a 50% career field goal Shooter. Kobe has never been 50% for even 1 season. Micheal Jordon would get his 30 pts from 20 shots while Kobe gets his 30 with 40 shots. There is no comparison (except in Kobe's mind).

Michael was also a lockdown defender, great distributor, and rebounder. Here are Jordan's career numbers including some forgetable years in Washington:

30.1 ppg
49.7% from the field
32.7% for three's
83.5% free throws
6.2 rpg
5.3 apg
2.35 steals per game

Here are Kobe's career numbers:

21.5 ppg
45.4% from the field
33.3% for three
83.3% for free throws
5.0 rpg
4.2 apg
1.46 steals per game

 

[Joe Mama]

George,

You are putting far too much stock in the statistics. The fact is Shawn Marion is a complementary player. Kobe Bryant is a franchise player. Bryant is consistently double-teamed when he gets the ball while The Matrix essentially never sees double teams.

You can count on Shawn Marion's rebounding numbers dropping 2-3 rpg when Amare Stoudemire returns also. As much as I like Kobe Bryant I would prefer Tracy McGrady if it wasn't for his back problems. Since McGrady went to Orlando he has missed
5 or 6 games per year. Kobe Bryant had missed a bunch of games each season until 2001-02. The last couple of seasons he's only missed a few games total though

Joe Mama.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
George,

You are putting far too much stock in the statistics. The fact is Shawn Marion is a complementary player. Kobe Bryant is a franchise player. Bryant is consistently double-teamed when he gets the ball while The Matrix essentially never sees double teams.

You can count on Shawn Marion's rebounding numbers dropping 2-3 rpg when Amare Stoudemire returns also. As much as I like Kobe Bryant I would prefer Tracy McGrady if it wasn't for his back problems. Since McGrady went to Orlando he has missed
5 or 6 games per year. Kobe Bryant had missed a bunch of games each season until 2001-02. The last couple of seasons he's only missed a few games total though

Joe Mama.

My point was not that Shawn is as good as Kobe. He's not even close. My concern is that Kobe is going to require a massive contract that will preclude almost all other moves. The fact that he kills a Suns team that has to double team Shaq does not change the fact that he is just a great player - not the second comimg.

Let me reinterate my concerns:

1. Kobe will need at least Garnett type money. A Grant Hill injury could kill the team just like the Googs and Hardaway injuries did.

2. I'm not convinced the Suns have enough complementary players to get the job done. The Suns need a major upgrade at center and the money to get that person. Signing any stud FA at guard would make that very difficult.

3. I'm not convinced that Kobe will come out of the trial unscathed. OJ was aquitted, but it was never the same for him.

4. I have at least some doubts about the potential Kobe - Amare chemistry. The poor chemistry between Shaq and Kobe certainly did not help during last year's playoffs.

All in all, I hope I'm wrong. But talking about not winning the championship in the 35 years of the franchise doesn't reduce those concerns.

 

[frdbtr]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
My point was not that Shawn is as good as Kobe. He's not even close. My concern is that Kobe is going to require a massive contract that will preclude almost all other moves. The fact that he kills a Suns team that has to double team Shaq does not change the fact that he is just a great player - not the second comimg.

Let me reinterate my concerns:

1. Kobe will need at least Garnett type money. A Grant Hill injury could kill the team just like the Googs and Hardaway injuries did.

2. I'm not convinced the Suns have enough complementary players to get the job done. The Suns need a major upgrade at center and the money to get that person. Signing any stud FA at guard would make that very difficult.

3. I'm not convinced that Kobe will come out of the trial unscathed. OJ was aquitted, but it was never the same for him.

4. I have at least some doubts about the potential Kobe - Amare chemistry. The poor chemistry between Shaq and Kobe certainly did not help during last year's playoffs.

All in all, I hope I'm wrong. But talking about not winning the championship in the 35 years of the franchise doesn't reduce those concerns.

Amen to that Brother! I agree with all of it. I have been resetting these points like a broken record on this board for 2 days now.

 

[frdbtr]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Come on. Are you now saying that you know what Kobe is thinking? That's a pretty good trick.

And regarding all this "Kobe thinks he's Michael Jordan" stuff. When has he said that? I'm confused about that. Everyone wants to compare the two, many on the supposed fact that Kobe has compared himself. When and how much?

Just watch him. All of his mannerisms are the same as Jordan's down to his accent, how he smiles, runs down the court, walks. everything that he does looks like a jordan clone. I have even heard announcers on the TV talk about how Kobe aspired to mirror Jordan's exact personality. This is all conjecture on what I have heard but it seems possible when you watch the two players. In my opinion it looks like Kobe took tape of Jordan and then tried to mirror it down to the last mannerism.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
My point was not that Shawn is as good as Kobe. He's not even close. My concern is that Kobe is going to require a massive contract that will preclude almost all other moves. The fact that he kills a Suns team that has to double team Shaq does not change the fact that he is just a great player - not the second comimg.

Let me reinterate my concerns:

1. Kobe will need at least Garnett type money. A Grant Hill injury could kill the team just like the Googs and Hardaway injuries did.

2. I'm not convinced the Suns have enough complementary players to get the job done. The Suns need a major upgrade at center and the money to get that person. Signing any stud FA at guard would make that very difficult.

3. I'm not convinced that Kobe will come out of the trial unscathed. OJ was aquitted, but it was never the same for him.

4. I have at least some doubts about the potential Kobe - Amare chemistry. The poor chemistry between Shaq and Kobe certainly did not help during last year's playoffs.

All in all, I hope I'm wrong. But talking about not winning the championship in the 35 years of the franchise doesn't reduce those concerns.

I have to admit I've been having second thoughts about Kobe Bryant myself. I would actually be much more comfortable with him if they could get rid of Shawn Marion's contract. I think only Bryant is a top-five player, but I don't think he deserves the Michael Jordan comparisons. I do not think he will ever be the best player of all time. Like I said earlier, if you wasn't for the back problems I would prefer Tracy McGrady.

There's no way Kobe Bryant will come out of the trial unscathed unless the girl basically admits to the public or someone close to her comes out and admits that she lied. I think we can all agree that the chances of that happening are slim to none. This is one of those cases where we will probably never really know what happened unlike the O.J. Simpson case where it's obvious.

I really don't think Kobe Bryant is coming to Phoenix anyways.

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by frdbtr
Just watch him. All of his mannerisms are the same as Jordan's down to his accent, how he smiles, runs down the court, walks. everything that he does looks like a jordan clone. I have even heard announcers on the TV talk about how Kobe aspired to mirror Jordan's exact personality. This is all conjecture on what I have heard but it seems possible when you watch the two players. In my opinion it looks like Kobe took tape of Jordan and then tried to mirror it down to the last mannerism.

This may be unfair, but the comparison does come up. The NBA propaganda machine could be partially responsible as well fo the perception.

The conflict between Shaq and Kobe could easily be interpreted as seeing Kobe comparing himself to Michael. How about this fantasy dialogue:

SHAQ "You need to get me the ball more".

Kobe: "I'm getting the job done scoring".

Shaq: "We need to get me the ball to win".

Kobe: "Well, the Bulls didn't have to get the ball inside to win it all".

If you use the Bulls to justify a guard oriented offense, then effectively you are comparing yourself to Miachael. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems plausible.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by frdbtr
Just watch him. All of his mannerisms are the same as Jordan's down to his accent, how he smiles, runs down the court, walks. everything that he does looks like a jordan clone. I have even heard announcers on the TV talk about how Kobe aspired to mirror Jordan's exact personality. This is all conjecture on what I have heard but it seems possible when you watch the two players. In my opinion it looks like Kobe took tape of Jordan and then tried to mirror it down to the last mannerism.

Is this a joke? The only people comparing Kobe to Jordan is the public, including you. There is no evidence that Kobe himself has ever said, "I am the next Michael Jordan". Like any real fan, it's easy to put words into other people's mouths, but it doesn't make it true.

Comparisons will be made, but you have to ask yourself why. Is it because Kobe is selfish and thinks he's the second coming, or is it because Kobe actually has the skills to actually compare to him? I think it's the latter.

 

[elindholm]

1. Kobe will need at least Garnett type money. A Grant Hill injury could kill the team just like the Googs and Hardaway injuries did.

If Bryant "needs" Garnett-type money, he's not coming to Phoenix anyway. The most Phoenix could offer is a normal max deal. But sure, an injury could paralyze the team. That's not an excuse for inaction, especially if you're talking about someone who has been very healthy throughout his career so far.

2. I'm not convinced the Suns have enough complementary players to get the job done. The Suns need a major upgrade at center and the money to get that person. Signing any stud FA at guard would make that very difficult.

The Suns need a superstar, at one position or another. Jordan didn't need a star center and I'm not convinced that Bryant will either, once O'Neal retires.

Signing Bryant to a max deal would still leave the Suns far under the luxury-tax line (if there even is one). They'd be able to use the MLE two years in a row and be in pretty good financial shape.

3. I'm not convinced that Kobe will come out of the trial unscathed. OJ was aquitted, but it was never the same for him.

Are you talking about his golf game? I don't understand this. Wasn't Ray Lewis under suspicion for murder, got off, and is now better than ever? For that matter, didn't most people say that Jason Kidd had his best year after he got the wife-beating mess behind him?

In fact, I'm hard-pressed to think of any case where an athlete faced legal trouble, got off the hook, and then saw his game suffer.

4. I have at least some doubts about the potential Kobe - Amare chemistry. The poor chemistry between Shaq and Kobe certainly did not help during last year's playoffs.

It sure didn't hurt them the three years prior to that. I'll take great talent over good chemistry any day.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by elindholm
2. I'm not convinced the Suns have enough complementary players to get the job done. The Suns need a major upgrade at center and the money to get that person. Signing any stud FA at guard would make that very difficult.

The Suns need a superstar, at one position or another. Jordan didn't need a star center and I'm not convinced that Bryant will either, once O'Neal retires.

Signing Bryant to a max deal would still leave the Suns far under the luxury-tax line (if there even is one). They'd be able to use the MLE two years in a row and be in pretty good financial shape.
[/B]

Prior to the trade there was a lot of discussion about getting a center if all that was available was a mid level cap. It was not very encouraging. Do you have someone in mind?

Servicable centers go for more than mid cap unless you are going for a "prospect". Last summer, the only centers I would have wanted were Brad Miller ($7 million) and Rasho Nesterovic ($5.6 million). Nesterovic was not much over cap, but enough that the Spurs were not competing with everyone else.

Now I'm hoping that Lampe will prove to be a steal and solve the Suns problems. Maybe by Summer we'll know.

 

[elindholm]

Servicable centers go for more than mid cap unless you are going for a "prospect".

The threshold for "servicable" becomes a lot easier to meet if you have Kobe Bryant on your team.

 

[Chaplin]

Does that mean that White is nowhere near "serviceable"? Because right now, I can guarantee you that if he were an UFA, he wouldn't be signed to a 6mil per year deal.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by elindholm
Servicable centers go for more than mid cap unless you are going for a "prospect".

The threshold for "servicable" becomes a lot easier to meet if you have Kobe Bryant on your team.

Maybe, but the question remains. Who do you think the Suns could get for a mid cap exemption?

 

[elindholm]

Maybe, but the question remains. Who do you think the Suns could get for a mid cap exemption?

If the Suns were to pass on Bryant, what superstar do you think the Suns could get, period? There are difficult questions no matter what path you choose.

To answer your question:

Foyle might well be had for the MLE, especially after this injury-plagued season. I'm not going to go looking up everyone's contract now, but the likes of Tony Battie or Chris Mihm might be available. Kwame Brown, Eddy Curry, and Stromile Swift have been mentioned on this board many times; I'd say only Brown is likely to get more than the MLE. Heck, Jake Voskuhl is not far from what the Suns could get by with at center if they were to land Bryant.

There's no point picking apart every one of these options; that is outside the scope of the discussion. My point is that you can set your sights a lot lower if you already have two and a half (with Marion) stars in place.

 

[cly2tw]

Whether Kobe is as good as Jordan after all is said and done is debatable. But comparing his stats with Marion's is simply laughable.

Actually, I agree with the idea that it is more important for the Suns to get rid of Marion's contract for cap as soon as possible.

 

[dyle_ph1]

Originally posted by frdbtr
Just watch him. All of his mannerisms are the same as Jordan's down to his accent, how he smiles, runs down the court, walks. everything that he does looks like a jordan clone. I have even heard announcers on the TV talk about how Kobe aspired to mirror Jordan's exact personality. This is all conjecture on what I have heard but it seems possible when you watch the two players. In my opinion it looks like Kobe took tape of Jordan and then tried to mirror it down to the last mannerism.

How is it wrong to model yourself after argueably the best player in the game? I hate Kobe as much as the next guy but it's not fair to fault him for what the public & media compares him to. Would you rather he emulate shawn bradley, instead?

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by elindholm

Foyle might well be had for the MLE, especially after this injury-plagued season. I'm not going to go looking up everyone's contract now, but the likes of Tony Battie or Chris Mihm might be available. Kwame Brown, Eddy Curry, and Stromile Swift have been mentioned on this board many times; I'd say only Brown is likely to get more than the MLE. Heck, Jake Voskuhl is not far from what the Suns could get by with at center if they were to land Bryant.

There's no point picking apart every one of these options; that is outside the scope of the discussion. My point is that you can set your sights a lot lower if you already have two and a half (with Marion) stars in place. [/B]

Foyle: An improvement, but he has minimal offensive skills. At the age of 29, it is unlikely he will get better and has a history of injuries.

Battie: He has three more years on his contract.

Mihm: Has another year under contract.

K Brown: Has two more years under contract.

Curry: Has two more years under contract.

Swift: Has another year on his contract and is only 6'9" 225

I'm not trying to be funny. I think this problem of finding an adequate center is much more serious than you realize. Voskuhl is a valuable member of the team, but a starter on a championship team? I can't visulaze it.

The issue of getting a center is defined by the nature of the contract. Currently, Kobe is scheduled to make $14,6 next season. That is the minimum he is likely to go for. The question is what happens next. Garnett took a cut from $28 million to only $16 million next year -- but then rises by $2 million each year to $24 million as of 2008/09. If Kobe would accept a flat contract at $15, it is workable - but add $1 to $2 million a year and it gets pretty bad.

I don't know how much Kobe is going to ask for. I am concerned that the growth of his contract would make it hard to fill in the spots. Maybe he'll be reasonable. Most people would think that $15 million a year is decent money.
However, there are some teams that might very well offer more.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by dyle_ph1
How is it wrong to model yourself after argueably the best player in the game? I hate Kobe as much as the next guy but it's not fair to fault him for what the public & media compares him to. Would you rather he emulate shawn bradley, instead?

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by George O'Brien

I'm not trying to be funny. I think this problem of finding an adequate center is much more serious than you realize. Voskuhl is a valuable member of the team, but a starter on a championship team? I can't visulaze it.

And IMO, you are overrating it. Most centers in this league are Power Forwards, that's just a fact.

IF we had gotten Kobe Bryant without having to give up Marion, and we remained with the same centers (Voskuhl, White), would that mean we'd have no chance at a championship? Of course not. A team anchored by Kobe Bryant, Amare Stoudemire and Shawn Marion could easily contend for an NBA title, regardless who is at center.

What is this fascination with only being satisfied with an All-Star at every position? It just won't happen.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Chaplin
And IMO, you are overrating it. Most centers in this league are Power Forwards, that's just a fact.

IF we had gotten Kobe Bryant without having to give up Marion, and we remained with the same centers (Voskuhl, White), would that mean we'd have no chance at a championship? Of course not. A team anchored by Kobe Bryant, Amare Stoudemire and Shawn Marion could easily contend for an NBA title, regardless who is at center.

What is this fascination with only being satisfied with an All-Star at every position? It just won't happen.

I don't expect an all star at every position, but teams win champsionships with defense. The Suns have to double team the post because no one can defend even second rate centers without help. No one can block shots from people driving the basket and the Suns were getting outrebounded even with Amare and the best rebounding SF in the league.

I don't care if the Suns add a real center or a PF that plays defense like Ben Wallace. But I don't like a situation where the Suns have to play small ball because their centers are not good enough to be on the floor at crunch time.