How many pennies does it take...

QuebecCard

ASFN Addict
Joined
Mar 12, 2021
Posts
6,208
Reaction score
8,774
Location
North of the 49th.
Till Keim signs any of the remaining WRs and edge rushers. This is not a game on who gets brownie points for getting the best team friendly deals for the lower echelon remaining free agents when they are not really a cap issue at all... geez!

And if he pays above market value for a player that doesn't deliver, I'm sure you'll be the first to forgive, right?
 

BritCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Posts
23,087
Reaction score
42,316
Location
UK
Fixed it for you.

Whatever happened to draft and develop? This board has been crying out for more from rookies but at the same time if you're not Jamar Chase or Tristan Wirfs your a bum that's never going to amount to anything.
 

Stout

Hold onto the ball, Murray!
Joined
Dec 30, 2002
Posts
40,601
Reaction score
25,380
Location
Pittsburgh, PA--Enemy territory!
Whatever happened to draft and develop? This board has been crying out for more from rookies but at the same time if you're not Jamar Chase or Tristan Wirfs your a bum that's never going to amount to anything.
It's called a young QB on a rookie contract. If you want to trade KM and go this route, fine and dandy. If you don't, your idea is pretty much the worst idea for us this season, sad to say. It's an indictment on Keim and his failures, but here we are.
 

BritCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Posts
23,087
Reaction score
42,316
Location
UK
It's called a young QB on a rookie contract. If you want to trade KM and go this route, fine and dandy. If you don't, your idea is pretty much the worst idea for us this season, sad to say. It's an indictment on Keim and his failures, but here we are.

Only if you believe Collins, Simmons, Moore, Wilson etc can't be good this year. I believe they can.

Rams won the SB with a bunch of young players starting, especially on D. None of which were stars.
 

Stout

Hold onto the ball, Murray!
Joined
Dec 30, 2002
Posts
40,601
Reaction score
25,380
Location
Pittsburgh, PA--Enemy territory!
Only if you believe Collins, Simmons, Moore, Wilson etc can't be good this year. I believe they can.
To one extend or another, I think they can be...let's say better. Didn't like the Collins or Moore picks, but say each of these players are at least okay this season. Which one of them is filling the gaping roster holes? None of them are playing edge. Your "it's all easily replaced by our own roster" will never hold water for me. RM isn't going to be a #2, and even if he is we need another starter-quality WR and still need another outside threat. We're leaving the cupboard bare and putting all of our eggs into INSTANT draft impact, contrary to your draft and develop approach in another thread, and late FA retreads. Very few folks will agree that this is the best way to take advantage of the young QB on a rookie contract.
 
OP
OP
Jetstream Green

Jetstream Green

Kool Aid with a touch of vodka
Joined
Feb 5, 2003
Posts
29,525
Reaction score
16,776
Location
San Antonio, Texas
And if he pays above market value for a player that doesn't deliver, I'm sure you'll be the first to forgive, right?
Wrong, because again the market value shift is not much for these after the big splash tier free agents, and do not group me with others because it's a fool who judges an individual in a constricted box justified by the generic masses. I am not done yet either. I would take AJ Green back on s a similar contract, would also acquire Julio Jones for slightly higher in the mix because again the difference is not going to sink this franchise because the cap space balance is not like one is juggling a Davante Adams value or an outrageous Christian Kirk idiotic move which the Cards rightfully did not pursue... how can one defend their current stance is beyond me unless there is a huge trade in the mix
 
Last edited:

Chopper0080

2021 - Prove It
Joined
May 15, 2002
Posts
29,311
Reaction score
43,351
Location
Colorado
Only if you believe Collins, Simmons, Moore, Wilson etc can't be good this year. I believe they can.

Rams won the SB with a bunch of young players starting, especially on D. None of which were stars.
Ok..but can is a lot different than has shown. Yes, those players can be good but they are more likely to be what they have shown so far or marginally better/worse. I don't believe it is fair or realistic to expect Collins to go from 15% snaps to 100% snaps and not expect the same number or more mistakes. Same with Moore and Wilson. Simmons had his role reduced by our DC last year and you are expecting him to take on a greater role?

Rams are not a great option because their coaches believe in playing young players and dealing with the mistakes. We do not have that type of culture.
 
OP
OP
Jetstream Green

Jetstream Green

Kool Aid with a touch of vodka
Joined
Feb 5, 2003
Posts
29,525
Reaction score
16,776
Location
San Antonio, Texas
Only if you believe Collins, Simmons, Moore, Wilson etc can't be good this year. I believe they can.

Rams won the SB with a bunch of young players starting, especially on D. None of which were stars.
But riddle me this, who were those rookies surrounded by and do the Cards have that same star power and direction
 

Chopper0080

2021 - Prove It
Joined
May 15, 2002
Posts
29,311
Reaction score
43,351
Location
Colorado
And if he pays above market value for a player that doesn't deliver, I'm sure you'll be the first to forgive, right?
So, success is paying for high dollar players who deliver value. you don't get a pass for spending big money on players who don't deliver just like you don't get a pass for not adding players and having a bad roster that doesn't perform.
 
OP
OP
Jetstream Green

Jetstream Green

Kool Aid with a touch of vodka
Joined
Feb 5, 2003
Posts
29,525
Reaction score
16,776
Location
San Antonio, Texas
Hell, we need to be signing some of these guys for depth alone and have not even the luxury of calling them starters lol
 

BritCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Posts
23,087
Reaction score
42,316
Location
UK
Rams are not a great option because their coaches believe in playing young players and dealing with the mistakes. We do not have that type of culture.

We haven't and its been a huge mistake. We have all asked for that to change. We shouldn't complain when it finally looks like they are.

FYI I'm not sure what Collins mistakes you are referring to. In his limited snaps he only had 7% missed tackles. Same as Hicks.

Hicks gave up a 106 passer rating. Zaven only 94.

What happened made no sense.
 
OP
OP
Jetstream Green

Jetstream Green

Kool Aid with a touch of vodka
Joined
Feb 5, 2003
Posts
29,525
Reaction score
16,776
Location
San Antonio, Texas
We haven't and its been a huge mistake. We have all asked for that to change. We shouldn't complain when it finally looks like they are.

FYI I'm not sure what Collins mistakes you are referring to. In his limited snaps he only had 7% missed tackles. Same as Hicks.

Hicks gave up a 106 passer rating. Zaven only 94.

What happened made no sense.
Could be a myriad of mistakes if he does not know what he's doing with a dot on his helmet the color green :)
 

Chopper0080

2021 - Prove It
Joined
May 15, 2002
Posts
29,311
Reaction score
43,351
Location
Colorado
We haven't and its been a huge mistake. We have all asked for that to change. We shouldn't complain when it finally looks like they are.

FYI I'm not sure what Collins mistakes you are referring to. In his limited snaps he only had 7% missed tackles. Same as Hicks.

Hicks gave up a 106 passer rating. Zaven only 94.

What happened made no sense.
The mistakes and issues he was having which made Tanner Vallejo and Joe Walker better starting options. Those ones.

As for the change...stripping your roster of talent to try to ensure your DC plays those players is not making a culture change.
 

QuebecCard

ASFN Addict
Joined
Mar 12, 2021
Posts
6,208
Reaction score
8,774
Location
North of the 49th.
Ok..but can is a lot different than has shown. Yes, those players can be good but they are more likely to be what they have shown so far or marginally better/worse. I don't believe it is fair or realistic to expect Collins to go from 15% snaps to 100% snaps and not expect the same number or more mistakes. Same with Moore and Wilson. Simmons had his role reduced by our DC last year and you are expecting him to take on a greater role?

Rams are not a great option because their coaches believe in playing young players and dealing with the mistakes. We do not have that type of culture.

The thought that, in effect, the story is written about a player's future after one season, even two, is beyond my comprehension.
 

BritCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Posts
23,087
Reaction score
42,316
Location
UK
The mistakes and issues he was having which made Tanner Vallejo and Joe Walker better starting options. Those ones.

As for the change...stripping your roster of talent to try to ensure your DC plays those players is not making a culture change.

You just said yourself that this org has a culture of preferring vets over starting rookies. There's no evidence of Collins mistakes. I certainly don't recall any obvious ones and his stats and PFF grades back that up.

They haven't stripped the roster of talent to force a change. That's a complete fabrication.

They always intended Collins to replace Hicks. they haven't seen anything in practice to make them think otherwise and now they are making the switch based on talent.
 

BritCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Posts
23,087
Reaction score
42,316
Location
UK
The thought that, in effect, the story is written about a player's future after one season, even two, is beyond my comprehension.

It's absolutely ridiculous.

There's a whole fabricated narrative now that Collins couldn't beat our Vallejo and Walker and that Vance is having his hand forced with Hicks cut. It's crap.

It's more likely that Vance just didn't want a rookie out there with Simmons who was still having some struggles in year 2 and it was considered a vet presence was more appropriate.

But the amount of fans writing off the young talent we have is sad. And when proven wrong they will just say "Well I was just going off what I'd seen so far..."
 

Ronin

Captain obvious
Super Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Oct 12, 2006
Posts
148,201
Reaction score
69,766
Location
Crowley, TX
It's absolutely ridiculous.

There's a whole fabricated narrative now that Collins couldn't beat our Vallejo and Walker and that Vance is having his hand forced with Hicks cut. It's crap.

It's more likely that Vance just didn't want a rookie out there with Simmons who was still having some struggles in year 2 and it was considered a vet presence was more appropriate.

But the amount of fans writing off the young talent we have is sad. And when proven wrong they will just say "Well I was just going off what I'd seen so far..
."
I get it, it can get annoying but try and avoid the call outs. Just a suggestion.
 

Stout

Hold onto the ball, Murray!
Joined
Dec 30, 2002
Posts
40,601
Reaction score
25,380
Location
Pittsburgh, PA--Enemy territory!
It's absolutely ridiculous.

There's a whole fabricated narrative now that Collins couldn't beat our Vallejo and Walker and that Vance is having his hand forced with Hicks cut. It's crap.

It's more likely that Vance just didn't want a rookie out there with Simmons who was still having some struggles in year 2 and it was considered a vet presence was more appropriate.

But the amount of fans writing off the young talent we have is sad. And when proven wrong they will just say "Well I was just going off what I'd seen so far..."
There is a whole world of difference between writing off young talent and expecting most of our young players at key holes to simply step in and be good enough, let alone excel, to get us deep into the playoffs. Not liking your plan of plugging all the major holes with our own youngsters or draft picks isn't flying with a lot of people. That doesn't mean those people are writing off young talent at all.
 

cardpa

Have a Nice Day!
Joined
Mar 14, 2003
Posts
7,448
Reaction score
4,228
Location
Monroe NC
In the 2021 draft, Collins and Parsons were flip flopping between #1 and #2 as far as LBers were concerned. Some ranked Collins first and others Parsons. In the end they were pretty much 1A and 1B. Their abilities for the most part were considered pretty even, in other words you couldn't go wrong with either one as both were considered an immediate starter on your defense. Now a year later and one season under the belt we see that Parsons not only started but was a significant contributor to the Dallas defense while Collins wasted away on the bench. I completely understand why some people are wondering if this was another misread by Keim and are questioning if Collins is going to be anything other than a mediocre starter.

I know some are going to blame Vance and his complex defense for Collins not getting on the field, however as the season wore on one I think rightfully one would think that Collins would pick up the system and start gaining playing time. Repetitions in practice and studying to better understand his role and the expectations of his position. That didn't happen, Collins didn't see any real uptick in playing time even into the final 3-4 weeks of the season other than due to injuries. It's no wonder why people are questioning him and his ability to take over the Hicks role which by the way also means calling the defense for every snap.
 

BritCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Posts
23,087
Reaction score
42,316
Location
UK
There is a whole world of difference between writing off young talent and expecting most of our young players at key holes to simply step in and be good enough, let alone excel, to get us deep into the playoffs. Not liking your plan of plugging all the major holes with our own youngsters or draft picks isn't flying with a lot of people. That doesn't mean those people are writing off young talent at all.

Well, other than various people saying Moore is a WR4 at best and Collins is a bust that can't beat out Vallejo then no, nobody has wrote them off...
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

I'm better than Mulli!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
64,863
Reaction score
60,358
Location
SoCal
It's absolutely ridiculous.

There's a whole fabricated narrative now that Collins couldn't beat our Vallejo and Walker and that Vance is having his hand forced with Hicks cut. It's crap.

It's more likely that Vance just didn't want a rookie out there with Simmons who was still having some struggles in year 2 and it was considered a vet presence was more appropriate.

But the amount of fans writing off the young talent we have is sad. And when proven wrong they will just say "Well I was just going off what I'd seen so far..."
I think it’s funny that you speak so authoritatively when you know as much about the reasoning as anyone else here. Obviously vance wasn’t so reticent to play Collins just because he was a rookie as he played more early in the season. He gradually got less and less snaps and yes, was eventually sitting behind Vallejo and walker. That’s indisputable. There’s only one reason why a coach would do that: can’t trust the player. The fact that you think (a) you know more than a multi time DC/head coach about his player; (b) have ANY idea whether he made mistakes like calling defenses, reading offenses, or playing his role in the scheme; or (c) know whether Collins elevation is based on Vance’s decision or keim forcing it (you know, the guy that proclaimed Collins starter before he played a snap last season) is . . . well . . . funny.

Collins is more physically talented than hicks, Vallejo and walker. Hopefully his head catches up with his talent this year.
 
Top