HUTCHINSON offer has major poison pill

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The poison pill comes into play if he isnt the highest paid lineman on the team, not player. I read that post about it coming into effect if he isnt the highest paid player on the team, but that didnt make sense to me. Now it has been corrected and if Hutch isnt the highest paid O-Lineman on the team, his 50 mil is guaranteed.

This makes much more sense, because of Walter Jones' contract.

that makes MUCH more sense. still super creative given walter jones presence on the seahawks.

 

[Totally_Red]

it is unstoppable - it's the other side of the coin

as for the deal - i think this will end up in arbitration or seattle will take compensation not to match

as stated in previous threads - you can't stop a team from making a stupid offer and a stupid offer can come as easily this year as it can next year

this could also end up in arbitration as the deal wouldn't be like terms and conditions since hutch would be the highest paid viking out of the gate with no guaranteed portion

with the hawks this deal would automatically put him in the second portion making the whole process guaranteed out of the gate

this was an aggressive move by the vikings - but maybe not the smartest ... it means if they want flexibility they have to keep an interior OL players as their highest paid guy for the next span of time - what will this do to mckinnie and his situation - how about signing other big name skill positions

i still like the transition tag - forces the issue - seattle can still squeeze another year out of chris gray at RG and use a guy like chop womack at LG while training a young replacement (probably max jean gilles in the first round)

although I really like hutch and losing him would be a blow - i think the best thing would be to make a deal with MN where they refuse to match and fight this through arbitration and take a draft pick as compensation

I would even settle for their 2nd rounder - that would allow seattle to get a good LB and OG in their first two picks and then have $23M or so in cap space to continue hunting this year

My understanding is the highest paid lineman is only for THIS year...

See this excerpt from Adam Schefter's column on nfl.com ..

The $50 million offer sheet that Hutchinson signed Sunday with the Vikings includes a provision dictating that he be the highest paid offensive lineman on his team this season --

http://www.nfl.com/nflnetwork/story/9305826

That makes it extremely cleverly crafted. I don't see how Seattle gets any compensation out of this. Why would the Vikings cough up a draft pick, when every analysis I've seen, it that Seattle would lose in arbitration?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

My understanding is the highest paid lineman is only for THIS year...

See this excerpt from Adam Schefter's column on nfl.com ..

The $50 million offer sheet that Hutchinson signed Sunday with the Vikings includes a provision dictating that he be the highest paid offensive lineman on his team this season --

http://www.nfl.com/nflnetwork/story/9305826

That makes it extremely cleverly crafted. I don't see how Seattle gets any compensation out of this. Why would the Vikings cough up a draft pick, when every analysis I've seen, it that Seattle would lose in arbitration?

it becomes more clever by the minute. i don't think the seahawks will have a leg to stand on.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

don't know how they would lose in arbitration

pretty much it is the vikings offering an ungauranteed contract and the only way seattle can match is to make it guaranteed money - this goes against the spirit of the CBA

as for the analysis of the contract and arbitration - it's hard to take much of it seriously when the "poison pill" as reported changes every 20 minutes

another option that seattle could do is offer jones a restructured deal that would pay him $100k less than hutch this year and then have it escalate next year

 

[Crazy Canuck]

And every time I tried to say we could do this, I was laughed at and told teams couldn't do it

And if you read the article it's more than likely that they can't (and the laughing continues.. .

At a minimum the spirit of equality under the CBA has been violated.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

don't know how they would lose in arbitration

pretty much it is the vikings offering an ungauranteed contract and the only way seattle can match is to make it guaranteed money - this goes against the spirit of the CBA

as for the analysis of the contract and arbitration - it's hard to take much of it seriously when the "poison pill" as reported changes every 20 minutes

another option that seattle could do is offer jones a restructured deal that would pay him $100k less than hutch this year and then have it escalate next year

the "spirit" will not be considered. at least, not in reviewing a straight contract provision. that is basic contract law. this is genius contract drafting. happens all the time in big business. the seahawks would not win in arbitration. and i'll be surprised if the vikings offer something in the way of compensation. this is not the nba.

i do, however, like your idea of restructuring walter's deal. that may be the only way for the seahawks to get around this.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

actually, the spirit is considered - that is why they have provisions built into the CBA that allow teams to not match certain aspects of the contract - which is why every now and again these things end up in front of arbitration

if it was cut and dry none of this stuff would be talked about

 

[Redheart]

Funny...

actually, the spirit is considered - that is why they have provisions built into the CBA that allow teams to not match certain aspects of the contract - which is why every now and again these things end up in front of arbitration

if it was cut and dry none of this stuff would be talked about

...how you keep coming hear trying to justify the blunder of not franchising him.

You crowed about how smart slapping the transition tag on Hutch was. Now you are trying to convince yourself (it's not working with us) that lawyers will bail Seattle out in some way.

Dumb and dumber. Good luck with planning the rest of FA and the draft as this works its way through the legal system.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

the "spirit" will not be considered. at least, not in reviewing a straight contract provision. that is basic contract law. this is genius contract drafting. happens all the time in big business. the seahawks would not win in arbitration. and i'll be surprised if the vikings offer something in the way of compensation. this is not the nba.

i do, however, like your idea of restructuring walter's deal. that may be the only way for the seahawks to get around this.

I'm also familiar with basic contract law. And while your reference to use in big business deals is true, we are dealing here with a poison pill within the framework of an overall agreement with clauses binding all signatories.

All teams in the NFL are subject to both the letter and spirit of the CBA. True, on the latter, it would probably require a specific ruling from League counsel and possibly arbitration... but, I'd suggest - that it would only delay the inevitable decision that the inserted clause is ultra vires.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

redheart - actually if you've payed attention to my stance I've stated all along that this was a good move and still remains a good move

whose to say the vikings don't offer the same contract to him next year and he signs with no compensation then? At that point they have to fill two OG spots with Chris Gray probably being spent.

At worse they lose him with no compensation. Same thing they were looking at next year if franchised. Main difference is this year they have the assets in place to replace him - next year would be more tricky in finding a replacement.

Sucks to lose him at any time - but that is the nature of the business

 

[MigratingOsprey]

also with the vikings picking up the dolphins 2nd round pick I wouldn't be shocked to see the hawks make a play for the vikings second rounder

seattle does have a right to take thier time on this and yes, even match the offer

the whole process is gambling and the game isn't over yet - they can go to the table and say that they will drag it out, maybe restructure jones, go to arbitration and maybe just outright match the offer - all while freezing the vikings ability to sign others

 

[Redheart]

redheart - actually if you've payed attention to my stance I've stated all along that this was a good move and still remains a good move...Sucks to lose him at any time - but that is the nature of the business

I have paid attention and responded to your posts.

The big mistake was leaving your all-pro, franchise-OL, open to the market.

I told you that there were too many teams out there interested in him to think he was going to slip by with the transition tag. Instead, your team left themselves at the mercy of what some other team decides to do. Well, Minny decided to take him from you.

Now, if Seattle trys to keep him I think he will cost more than if you franchised him. Seattle lost him when they made the first blunder of being weak and letting some other team "negotiate his salary" for them. Isn't that one of the things that you lauded? How do you like the negotiation so far?

You can continue to state that this was a good move as long as you want. Meanwhile, Seattle has to plan based on "what if's" instead of controlling their own fate.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

how is him hitting the open market next year not a what if?

what prevents a team from offering this same exact contract next year and having him leave seattle with no possibility to match, no possibility to receive any compensation and not being in as good of a position to have a replacement?

 

[Redheart]

how is him hitting the open market next year not a what if?

what prevents a team from offering this same exact contract next year and having him leave seattle with no possibility to match, no possibility to receive any compensation and not being in as good of a position to have a replacement?

Hutch would be a guy you lock-up long term after you slap him with the Franchise Tag. That answers the "what if" and "prevents" question.

Don't get me wrong. I REALLY like how things are working out.

It is even better listening to you say it is "all good" too.

 

[Stout]

And if you read the article it's more than likely that they can't (and the laughing continues.. .

At a minimum the spirit of equality under the CBA has been violated.

*sigh* I know you like to be overly antagonistic, so I'll overlook the little barb you threw in there. I don't think the poison pill will be overturned, and I have a lawyer that's familiar with contract law on this board who agrees. Will it be matched or overturned? Who knows? It's a damn fine effort on the Vikes' part, though.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

actually, the spirit is considered - that is why they have provisions built into the CBA that allow teams to not match certain aspects of the contract - which is why every now and again these things end up in front of arbitration

if it was cut and dry none of this stuff would be talked about

no, not the "spirit" of the cba it's interpreting the contract provision to see if it meets the requirements of the cba. there is no "court of equity" as regards the cba. trust me. if the contract provision is interpreted to fall outside the defined terms of the cba it might be considered a term that need not be matched, but if the drafters of the contract are any good, it is probably narrowly tailored to meet the requirements. you're grasping at straws. trust me on this one. i haven't seen the contract provision, nor am i an expert on the nfl's cba, but i have extensive experience dealing the the nba's old cba, i have a few friends who are nfl agents, and i'm an attorney. i'm not talking outta my ass here. (though i'm sure many of you would disagree on a regular basis).

 

[Totally_Red]

also with the vikings picking up the dolphins 2nd round pick I wouldn't be shocked to see the hawks make a play for the vikings second rounder

seattle does have a right to take thier time on this and yes, even match the offer

the whole process is gambling and the game isn't over yet - they can go to the table and say that they will drag it out, maybe restructure jones, go to arbitration and maybe just outright match the offer - all while freezing the vikings ability to sign others

Sure Seattle will take their time, but really how does delay hurt Minnesota. They have already filled their basket with free agent goodies, while Seattle is dead in the water debating whether to match or not. They have only slight uncertainity, that Seattle just might be foolish enough to match. Besides, this likely holds up any trade for John Abraham, if that was even feasible in the first place.

It's difficult to see the glass half-full for the Hawks. And why are they so upset, if everything is coming up roses?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I'm also familiar with basic contract law. And while your reference to use in big business deals is true, we are dealing here with a poison pill within the framework of an overall agreement with clauses binding all signatories.

All teams in the NFL are subject to both the letter and spirit of the CBA. True, on the latter, it would probably require a specific ruling from League counsel and possibly arbitration... but, I'd suggest - that it would only delay the inevitable decision that the inserted clause is ultra vires.

i see no application of the ultra vires doctrine. any team has the ability to bind itself to a contractual provision as it relates to the guaranteeability (yes, i made that word up) of a contract. each team possesses that authority. or are you just throwing around legal words?

 

[CardinalChris]

There is no compensation for a transition player. The only thing you get is the right to match a contract. The NFLPA can rule the contract illegal and void, but the Hawks can't say "Yeah, we will look the other way about that verbage if you give us a second round pick"

 

[CardinalChris]

Want to get around it? If he isn't the highest paid player his salary drops to the league minimum each year and the amount over that is due as a bonus. Therefore the money is paid out (garaunteed) and spread evenly among the years of the contract, less the veteran minimums.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

yep and the escalation clause is the problem - to franchise him next year it would of been over an $8M cap hit on the 1 year tender - so that really wasn't a possibility

 

[MigratingOsprey]

Hutch would be a guy you lock-up long term after you slap him with the Franchise Tag. That answers the "what if" and "prevents" question.

Don't get me wrong. I REALLY like how things are working out.

It is even better listening to you say it is "all good" too.

No it doesn't ... if he wanted to test the market (which he stated many times that he did) he would of done it after this season if franchised

usually once the franchise tag is placed on a guy they sign the tender and wait a year to hit the open market

seattle wouldn't of been able to franchise him two years in the row

so all this did was escalate the procedure 1 year

 

[CardinalChris]

No it doesn't ... if he wanted to test the market (which he stated many times that he did) he would of done it after this season if franchised

usually once the franchise tag is placed on a guy they sign the tender and wait a year to hit the open market

seattle wouldn't of been able to franchise him two years in the row

so all this did was escalate the procedure 1 year

You can franchise a player as many years in a row as you want. They did it to Walter Jones 2 or 3 years in a row. The only limiting factor is a player makes either A) average of top 5 at his position or B) 120% of last years salary. This is why Mannings Franchice number last year would have been something insane like 16 million.

Now Alexander signed his tender, but made Seattle put a clause that said they could NOT use the tag on him this year. It was special circumstances to keep him from holding out.

 

[WisconsinCard]

no, not the "spirit" of the cba it's interpreting the contract provision to see if it meets the requirements of the cba. there is no "court of equity" as regards the cba. trust me. if the contract provision is interpreted to fall outside the defined terms of the cba it might be considered a term that need not be matched, but if the drafters of the contract are any good, it is probably narrowly tailored to meet the requirements. you're grasping at straws. trust me on this one. i haven't seen the contract provision, nor am i an expert on the nfl's cba, but i have extensive experience dealing the the nba's old cba, i have a few friends who are nfl agents, and i'm an attorney. i'm not talking outta my ass here. (though i'm sure many of you would disagree on a regular basis).

I agree with you ouchie. Is it in the a "sprit" of the CBA when teams circumvent the salary cap every year? I don't think anyone can determine the "spirit" of anything its open to interpetation. The players union would fight hard to keep Minnys contract alive too as it benefits one of their own.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

No matter what, either Seattle or Minny will be way overpaying for the guy. Anybody could see this happening.Lawyers,agents, teams are going to find loopholes in any agreement to suit their needs. I may be stupid but i'd rather have a Milford Brown with a 2-3 million cap number than a Steve Hutchinson at a 13 million cap number. OG' s don't have THAT much of an impact on the games. If i'm Seattle, i let Minnesota eat this ridiculous contract that will hinder them from signing any OL in the future or re-signing any current OL on their roster.You can always say Minny can re-structure but Hutch already screwed over Seattle(they supposedly had an understanding) so why wouldn't he do the same to Minny?