I don't believe it.

clif

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All this talk about how Whiz is "holding guys accoutable" is premature at best at this point in my mind. Benching Rolle was the easy part. Let's see him bench someone like Berry then I will believe in his tactics. Why? Let's see him bench a player that actually has performed in the past but is currently nonexistent. Rolle hasn't done squat to even be relevant IMO.

Whiz's message may be true, but he has done nothing to deserve all this praise.
 

az1965

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So the nudge to Fitz was nothing? What about message to Leinart? I mean these are the core, franchise guys that no one even blink an eye at...

I believe it.
 
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clif

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So the nudge to Fitz was nothing? What about message to Leinart? I mean these are the core, franchise guys that no one even blink an eye at...

I believe it.

What nudge to Fitz? I don't seem to recall any quotes that stated or implied that he had to do anything to get Fitz to play better.
 
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clif

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There's two sides to this coin--There's no one behind berry that can play. No one.


Exactly. So the point is that players will be allowed to stink it up as long as there is no depth behind them.

Don't get me wrong I think Rolle should have been sat and Berry is professional enough to not need to be sat, but I would think the rep Whiz has gotten in his first few weeks is a little premature and unwarranted.
 

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All this talk about how Whiz is "holding guys accoutable" is premature at best at this point in my mind. Benching Rolle was the easy part. Let's see him bench someone like Berry then I will believe in his tactics. Why? Let's see him bench a player that actually has performed in the past but is currently nonexistent. Rolle hasn't done squat to even be relevant IMO.

Whiz's message may be true, but he has done nothing to deserve all this praise.

Rolle was benched because there were players behind him who were playing better. If someone behind Berry was playing better then Berry would be benched also, IMO.

Rolle wasn't benched just so Whis could "send a message". That is something Denny would have done. JMO.
 

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Demoting a first rounder is putting your money where your mouth is in my book. It's smart too (in this case) unlike the demotions Denny used to hand out.
 
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clif

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Rolle was benched because there were players behind him who were playing better. If someone behind Berry was playing better then Berry would be benched also, IMO.

Rolle wasn't benched just so Whis could "send a message". That is something Denny would have done. JMO.


Can we really draw the conclusion that Hood was playing better than Rolle? I can see Green, but I already expected him to start.

The Hood situation just screams Matt Ware to me all over again. I hope I'm wrong, but I can't possibly see what people could have seen from Hood to make people think he was playing better than Rolle so far.

Again this may have ended up being the case but I don't see where Hood has really shined.
 

az1965

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What nudge to Fitz? I don't seem to recall any quotes that stated or implied that he had to do anything to get Fitz to play better.
The message doesn't have to be published in a newspaper but there were clear reports that Fitz was asked to improve his route running. We don't know exactly what was said but this is an indication that the top guys will not just cruise along, they will have to work hard to get better as well.
 
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clif

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The message doesn't have to be published in a newspaper but there were clear reports that Fitz was asked to improve his route running. We don't know exactly what was said but this is an indication that the top guys will not just cruise along, they will have to work hard to get better as well.


I'm not attacking you but can you please show me where Whiz had to address route running with Fitz? We all knew he's had an issue with that, but I highly doubt it took Whiz to get him to improve. How about him just taking a look at himself and realizing that he needed to improve strictly on his own?
 

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Exactly. So the point is that players will be allowed to stink it up as long as there is no depth behind them.

Don't get me wrong I think Rolle should have been sat and Berry is professional enough to not need to be sat, but I would think the rep Whiz has gotten in his first few weeks is a little premature and unwarranted.

I think the idea is to win football games.

Bench a guy when his backup is worse simply to make a point? Is that what you are really advocating?
 

az1965

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I'm not attacking you but can you please show me where Whiz had to address route running with Fitz? We all knew he's had an issue with that, but I highly doubt it took Whiz to get him to improve. How about him just taking a look at himself and realizing that he needed to improve strictly on his own?
The article was on azcentral.com couple weeks back. I will try to find...
 

az1965

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Fitzgerald gets down to details with friend Green gone.
Aug. 15, 2007

CBS SportsLine.com wire reports




FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. -- Larry Fitzgerald has such athletic ability that he has been known to shrug off the details.



"My entire life I've been able to get away with not doing things technique properly," he said. "Sometimes it comes and gets me, but most of the time I'm able to get by with it. But I don't want to rely on that. I want to beat guys with good technique. That will make my life and my quarterback's life a lot easier."

With the Arizona Cardinals no longer coached by close family friend Dennis Green, Fitzgerald is being pushed hard by the new staff, and he is honing in on the little things that he sometimes ignored in the past. The result has been an outstanding training camp.

"I've gotten increasingly better every year, but I think this year, this offseason, I've really addressed it," the wide receiver said after a workout Wednesday. "I'm quicker. My weight's down. I'm a lot stronger and I have a lot better understanding of the concepts we're doing out there, a lot better understanding of my role on this team."

Fitzgerald's relationship with Green goes back to childhood. Fitzgerald's father and the coach are good friends, and he was a ball boy with the Minnesota Vikings when Green coached there. One of the first things Green did as Arizona coach was push for the selection of Fitzgerald as the third pick overall in the 2004 draft.

In his second season, at age 22, Fitzgerald made the Pro Bowl after catching 103 passes for 1,049 yards. Anquan Boldin caught 102 for 1,402 yards, marking only the third time NFL teammates had surpassed 1,400 yards receiving.

But Green couldn't turn the Cardinals into winners, and he was fired a day after his 2006 team finished 5-11. For the first time, Fitzgerald is facing an NFL season without Green.

"We knew that Coach Green and Larry were very close and we knew what went into that," quarterback Kurt Warner said.

When a coach and player are that close, Warner said, "it's easy to start taking things for granted and understand, 'Hey, nothing's going to change here.' Then you get a new coaching staff that doesn't even know you and they kind of push you a little bit, they kind of challenge you a little bit differently than maybe you were otherwise."

Fitzgerald remains a staunch supporter of Green.

"My friendship and my love for Coach Green is not going to change regardless of whether he's my head coach or he's the commentator on ESPN or if he's not doing anything," he said. "I'm still going to have the same admiration and respect as I would have if he was my head coach."

But Fitzgerald has responded well to the pressure from the new coaches.

"I'm still getting the same looks, I'm still getting the opportunities that I had before," he said, "but I just think me as a player that I've matured and I understand being a good player on a bad team is not good enough, being a good player on a great team is what I want to be."

New head coach Ken Whisenhunt has moved Fitzgerald from the "X" receiver to the "Z" receiver, a spot that presents more of a mental challenge.


"There's going to be more things for him to do, but there are also going to be more opportunities for him," Whisenhunt said.

Whisenhunt wants Fitzgerald to work on "the little details," including route running, the depth of routes and running after the catch.

"You know he can catch the football, that's been proven," Whisenhunt said, "but he can make better separation and make bigger plays. We've had some of those things show up on the practice field."

Fitzgerald, who turns 24 in two weeks, uncharacteristically dropped a couple of passes in last weekend's preseason opener at Oakland. He has caught just about everything that's been thrown his way in camp, and quarterback Matt Leinart has noted the change.

"He's already really, really good," Leinart said, "but if he fine-tunes some of those little things, he's going to be unstoppable."
 

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Demoting a first rounder is putting your money where your mouth is in my book. It's smart too (in this case) unlike the demotions Denny used to hand out.

Not if he's not a guy that you brought in. The problem with Denny is that he couldn't admit his mistakes with his own guys. If Al Johnson/Reggie Wells/Mike Gandy/Terrance Holt/Rod Hood start playing badly and he brings the hook, I'll be more impressed.

That being said, I'll be disappointed if Alan Branch gets the starting nod at NT in Week 1. Gabe Watson has been playing his keister off this preseason.
 

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woiwza wouldva imagineder that roller wouldva been demoted to thaer janitor role on the concesseoopj staff not me i wouldva thoughta he wouldvea madeta problwlwer for thaf futurer ina woua sportaw isaa whatg tha gamera shoulda bdea jesus rolle is amazner in thata commercial he doeser withea kinga long liva the kinga from burgerkinga holy jumping rope batamn told robin we are dommed if the prize of the future is downward from the ocean of itself for the people to see in whawt we believe to be the future of this franchie said robin to batman what will be instore for them in chapter 2 only time will tell for all the cardinal fans to see if they cpome for the future is but what the will is to the live o th etree s ion the ocean for the life is only to destroy the end of lall life is fut or the
 

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So the nudge to Fitz was nothing? What about message to Leinart? I mean these are the core, franchise guys that no one even blink an eye at...

I believe it.

Exactly...and benching the #8 overall pick is a big thing.

I believe. I have to admit that Whis was not my choice (1, 2, or 3) but I can't remember any other 1st year or any year head coach making these types of moves.
 
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clif

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Nice find az1965 but,

This quote is from http://www.detroitlions.com/document_display.cfm?document_id=437907

December 9, 2005
>> On how much he had to change his game from college to Pro
“I think I needed to work on a lot of things. Coming out of college, I relied heavily on my athletic ability and I was able to do a lot when I showed my athletic ability. Everybody in the NFL are great athletes and they scheme for your strengths and they try to take your strengths away from you and I think this year I have become a better route runner and a better complete football player. (I haven’t) had to rely so much on just athletic ability.”



My feeling still remains that it is entirely possible that Fitz on his own accord finally realized that he needed to improve and now since the new staff wants him to improve (just like every other football player in America) they are the ones being given the kudos as to holding him accountable.

Again to be clear I don't care how or why these guys improve, I just think it would be naive to think that just because a new staff came in these guys all of a sudden decided to work hard.
 

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Clif, we've played two pre-season games. That's it. Patience.

The team breaks camp in 3 days. Then, everything shifts more to getting ready for the real season.

Aug 28 is cutdown to 75 players. Sept 1 cutdown to 53 players. Sept 6 is first real game. I'm ready.
 
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clif

clif

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Clif, we've played two pre-season games. That's it. Patience.

The team breaks camp in 3 days. Then, everything shifts more to getting ready for the real season.

Aug 28 is cutdown to 75 players. Sept 1 cutdown to 53 players. Sept 6 is first real game. I'm ready.


That's part of my point. Let's take more of a wait and see approach before we anoint Whiz as the sheriff.
 

az1965

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Nice find az1965 but,



My feeling still remains that it is entirely possible that Fitz on his own accord finally realized that he needed to improve and now since the new staff wants him to improve (just like every other football player in America) they are the ones being given the kudos as to holding him accountable.

Again to be clear I don't care how or why these guys improve, I just think it would be naive to think that just because a new staff came in these guys all of a sudden decided to work hard.
The article clearly highlights that the coaching staff pushed him... but it is also a tribute to the person that Fitz is. He is also very motivated and a good guy so its a combination of both in this case. But, this just shows that the coaching staff is pushing whoever they believe needs to be pushed.

I agree that it is premature for a lot of things but initial signs are good.
 

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All this talk about how Whiz is "holding guys accoutable" is premature at best at this point in my mind. Benching Rolle was the easy part. Let's see him bench someone like Berry then I will believe in his tactics. Why? Let's see him bench a player that actually has performed in the past but is currently nonexistent. Rolle hasn't done squat to even be relevant IMO.

Whiz's message may be true, but he has done nothing to deserve all this praise.

hot diggity! Clif, for the past week, you've been starting threads that I thought about, but decided not to post to try because I knew if I did, they would likely provoke nothing but insults, blah, blah, blahs and locked threads! Kudos for taking my bullets my good man and welcome to the darkside. ;)
 

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What no one seems to have considered is the impact the Rolle's benching will have on the rest of the defense. Rolle was taking so much stick, some of it totally unfairly, because of perceived weaknesses in his game, poor officiating and a single blown coverage in each of the first two games. Despite that, the majority of criticism of the defense in those games was levelled at him. Well buckos, your fall guy is not there, he is not starting, all eyes not be on how Rolle performs but on the rest of the defense, and those eyes will be sharp. Reviewing the defense in the last game there were some appalling plays across the line with the same players repeating their errors several times, were they benched? Were they lynched on these forums? Sorry, but we will be looking for a new fall guy, and you will be held to account, the safety valve for the defensive failures is going to be sitting!
 

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The real fall guys should be Pandergast and Graves... Graves is responsible for putting together this below average talent on the defensive side.
 

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Opening of this thread sounds like one of those "yeah, but..." responses to an argument; only there was no argument.

Let's review the bidding. Whisenhunt makes a roster change (Hood for Rolle) and then gets slammed because he didn't also hold Berry accountable for subpar play. Some thoughts -

- Give Wiz credit. Holding Rolle accountable was a good first step.

- The stated decision to move Hood ahead of Rolle on the depth chart was because Rod outplayed Antrel and deserved the promotion. (I also thought Hood was playing better than Rolle).

- If you bench Berry, who do you propose we elevate ahead of him? (note - although DE's Cooper and A Smith have played pretty well, they're DE/UT tweeners who don't have the same multiple LB/DE skills that Berry possesses).

- Also - although responsibility for outside contain on the right side is usually assigned to Berry, we don't know in each of the 6 instances last week whether it was the DRE, the RLB or the RCB who had the contain assignment - in a hybrid defense, things aren't always so simple.

But I do agree that cleaning up that problem should be the #1 thing our defense works on and in the remote possibility the current guys responsible can't figure it out, Wiz and Clancy should play other guys who can. And I don't think anyone was annointing Wiz anything - there was just positive commentary on his willingness to play the best player regardless of where, when or how we obtained him.
 
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clif

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Jeff,

The point is that in my opinion it is a bit premature for all the "whiz is a hard ass" talk that seems to be the popular belief. From WHiz rips Matt, to WHiz makes Fitz run better routes...blah blah blah. This is the same crap that every coaching staff says when they come into town and frankly it ends up holding very little water.

Benching Rolle was the easy part. I still think though that he will be back in there at some point real quick, because I seem to recall Green making his share of ******** mistakes. I also am unsure on Hood and for reason he just screams MATT WARE to me all over again.

I was not calling for a benching of Berry, I was using his situation as an example. He clearly has made more than a few mistakes and has done zilch on the pass rush. One could argue that he needs to be benched. I would be more impressed it that happened since his play could be considered more of a drop off than Rolle's.

Hell I would really be impressed if Whiz benched a guy like Wells, but we all know that ain't going to happen.
 

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