I'd still take Larry over Ben

[Russ Smith]

To me this is the main point in the whole debate. The fact that it is debatable. But some of these lousy pundits act like we passed up BigBen to draft Wendall Bryant. Its going to take a few years to really tell which was the better pick. To me it should seem obvious that Rothligsberger could definetly be floundering away here, behind an awful line, no running game, Boldin injured for significant amounts of time, having BJ drop balls all over the place. Nonsensical to think he would be anywhere near his current level of success were he playing here.

Argh. Why does every discussion of Ben turn into a he wouldn't be any good in Arizona debate?

It's irrelevant, the point is, if we had drafted Ben, would we be going into the offseason needing to sign Warner and having discussions about whether or not we should sign Josh too? My take, no, even if Ben hadn't put up consecutive passer ratings of 98.1 and 98.6 here(and I don't think he would have) I think it's safe to say the guy has shown sufficient talent that we wouldn't be wondering who our QB was going to be in 2 years.

Fitz is a great player, nobody is saying he was a bad choice. But we did pass on a very talented QB to get him, the debate is whether that was right or not. Frankly I'm a lot more convinced it WAS right, than I was when we first drafted Fitz, he's been better than I ever expected.

But we all know the next time Warner gets hurt untouched we're going to have the same debate on who our QBOF is. Nobody is saying Fitz is comparable to Bryant, just that some people think a franchise QB is harder to find than a great WR.

 

[Evil Ash]

Ben did score 2 TD's

He scored a TD and the call was questionable

The problem like usual is that when the position of QB comes into debate all logic goes out the window. "He carried his team to victory", blah, blah, blah

Yes he's a good QB and deserves some of the credit for the team's success but not as much as some fans give the position credit for. Its a team sport and even if we had Big Ben on our team we still stink. Some people prefer the urban legend aspect of the position rather than reality and I honestly find it quite sad

 

[Russ Smith]

Yes he's a good QB and deserves some of the credit for the team's success but not as much as some fans give the position credit for. Its a team sport and even if we had Big Ben on our team we still stink. Some people prefer the urban legend aspect of the position rather than reality and I honestly find it quite sad

Offense is general is overrated. My understanding is Hines Ward was a runaway winner of MVP yesterday. Yes he had 2 big pass plays in the game and a TD, but he had 2 drops, one of which was a TD. And the game was clearly won by the Pittsburgh defense, not their offense. But when you can't name the entire defense the winner(because of teh Escalade prize), the tendency is to say which offensive player do we give it to.

I think Ben was instrumental in the 3 wins to get to the Superbowl, and then got carried to the win yesterday. WIthout him, they wouldn't have been there, but they won in spite of him yesterday.

 

[Evil Ash]

Offense is general is overrated. My understanding is Hines Ward was a runaway winner of MVP yesterday. Yes he had 2 big pass plays in the game and a TD, but he had 2 drops, one of which was a TD. And the game was clearly won by the Pittsburgh defense, not their offense. But when you can't name the entire defense the winner(because of teh Escalade prize), the tendency is to say which offensive player do we give it to.

I think Ben was instrumental in the 3 wins to get to the Superbowl, and then got carried to the win yesterday. WIthout him, they wouldn't have been there, but they won in spite of him yesterday.

I agree. The thing is the legend with some people just continues to grow to the point where you think the QB was the only player that played for that team that particular day. I don't care how good of a player you are or how well you played, one player doesn't win a game by himself.

I think a lot of it comes just from oversimplification where they want either a) just one person to give the glory to for a winning team or b) for a losing team a single player that will make you a winner. This goes the same for all team sports (ie for baseball its starting pitching, basketball its a center, and hockey its a goalie). Its just a way for fans to make themselves feel that their team is closer than it actually is

 

[Goldfield]

A QB touches the ball every play. QB's are MUCH more important that a WR.

Fitz is good but PLZ!!!!! Big Ben is much more of an impact.

 

[Evil Ash]

A QB touches the ball every play. QB's are MUCH more important that a WR.

Then you must think very highly of the Center and handing the ball off isn't what I would call a direct impact

Fitz is good but PLZ!!!!! Big Ben is much more of an impact.

If Heinz Ward wasn't on the Steelers how good do you think he'd be?

 

[Pariah]

Overall, Ben looked like Crap in the SB. But, he was still really impressive eluding the rush looking to throw. He saw quite a bit of pressure and managed to buy himself A LOT of time. For all those that say he wouldn't be any good in AZ because he's not mobile enough should look for those plays in the replay of the superbowl.

 

[RedViper]

Argh. Why does every discussion of Ben turn into a he wouldn't be any good in Arizona debate?

It's irrelevant, the point is, if we had drafted Ben, would we be going into the offseason needing to sign Warner and having discussions about whether or not we should sign Josh too? My take, no, even if Ben hadn't put up consecutive passer ratings of 98.1 and 98.6 here(and I don't think he would have) I think it's safe to say the guy has shown sufficient talent that we wouldn't be wondering who our QB was going to be in 2 years.

Fitz is a great player, nobody is saying he was a bad choice. But we did pass on a very talented QB to get him, the debate is whether that was right or not. Frankly I'm a lot more convinced it WAS right, than I was when we first drafted Fitz, he's been better than I ever expected.

But we all know the next time Warner gets hurt untouched we're going to have the same debate on who our QBOF is. Nobody is saying Fitz is comparable to Bryant, just that some people think a franchise QB is harder to find than a great WR.

To me its absolutely relevant that Rothligsberger would struggle here simply because I firmly believe a great QB, put into an awful situation can waste away to nothing. Ben could be sitting on the bench right now, pretty much forgotten by the rest of the league, behind some veteran like KW, because he looked so bad in year one that we went out and brought in a vet. Its not only bringing in the right players, its about bringing in the right players at the right times and putting them in situations where they can succeed. I firmly believe Rothligsberger would not have succeeded here in the past two years.

At least one of the articles in the repulsive, I think it was that gutless jackass gambo, raved about the atrocious passing over of BigBen. To me, that is simplified to target an audience of full blown idiots.

 

[boisesuns]

lol, Letterman, is Shaving Ben's Beard right now.

 

[BACH]

To me its absolutely relevant that Rothligsberger would struggle here simply because I firmly believe a great QB, put into an awful situation can waste away to nothing. Ben could be sitting on the bench right now, pretty much forgotten by the rest of the league, behind some veteran like KW, because he looked so bad in year one that we went out and brought in a vet. Its not only bringing in the right players, its about bringing in the right players at the right times and putting them in situations where they can succeed. I firmly believe Rothligsberger would not have succeeded here in the past two years.

At least one of the articles in the repulsive, I think it was that gutless jackass gambo, raved about the atrocious passing over of BigBen. To me, that is simplified to target an audience of full blown idiots.

In order for a young QB to succeed you must have the pieces around him first. IMO it wasn't the right time for a QBOF when Ben was an option.

 

[Stout]

In order for a young QB to succeed you must have the pieces around him first. IMO it wasn't the right time for a QBOF when Ben was an option.

Look, I'm glad now we have Fitz, sure, but that's ludicrous...it's ALWAYS the right time for a good QBOF. I mean, if we KNEW a QB on the board at #10 would be good, we'd be complete morons not to draft him. Did the Cowgirls have the pieces in place when they drafted Aikman? What happens if they don't draft him for that reason?

 

[BACH]

Look, I'm glad now we have Fitz, sure, but that's ludicrous...it's ALWAYS the right time for a good QBOF. I mean, if we KNEW a QB on the board at #10 would be good, we'd be complete morons not to draft him. Did the Cowgirls have the pieces in place when they drafted Aikman? What happens if they don't draft him for that reason?

So you're saying that the surrounding cast doesn't have any effect of a young QBs career, and a talented quarterback will develop in any scenario.

That means you think single NFL scout were wrong on Joey Harrington, Patrick Ramsey, Tim Couch, Akili Smith, Cade McNown and all the other highly drafted QBs that never panned out, because if they were talented, then they would have suceeded.

I'm sorry this question isn't as black and white as you would like. Sometimes a QBOF comes along that you can't afford to pass in the draft, but there isn't any doubt, that a QB has a better chance of developing into NFL caliber QB if all the pieces around him are set.

 

[Stout]

So you're saying that the surrounding cast doesn't have any effect of a young QBs career, and a talented quarterback will develop in any scenario.

That means you think single NFL scout were wrong on Joey Harrington, Patrick Ramsey, Tim Couch, Akili Smith, Cade McNown and all the other highly drafted QBs that never panned out, because if they were talented, then they would have suceeded.

I'm sorry this question isn't as black and white as you would like. Sometimes a QBOF comes along that you can't afford to pass in the draft, but there isn't any doubt, that a QB has a better chance of developing into NFL caliber QB if all the pieces around him are set.

IMO it wasn't the right time for a QBOF when Ben was an option

No, you're misinterpreting what I'm trying to say. You're saying there are times when drafting a QBOF isn't an option, and you still don't advocate drafting Ben 2 years ago KNOWING he's a good QBOF. I'm saying that if you KNOW a guy is going to be a good QBOF, you'd be moronic to EVER pass on one unless you already had one. Here, I'll give you a choice. Let's go back and say Montana and Faulk are coming out in the same draft...with our current team, who would YOU take? Um, DUH, Montana.

You seem to think that passing up on a sure-fire QB is okay. I don't. I quite agree that supporting cast does matter in a young QBs development, but you're hardly ever, IF ever, going to have a perfect team that simply needs the right QB plugged in for it to work. Under the circumstances you preach, we'd NEVER draft a franchise QB.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

IMO it wasn't the right time for a QBOF when Ben was an option

No, you're misinterpreting what I'm trying to say. You're saying there are times when drafting a QBOF isn't an option, and you still don't advocate drafting Ben 2 years ago KNOWING he's a good QBOF. I'm saying that if you KNOW a guy is going to be a good QBOF, you'd be moronic to EVER pass on one unless you already had one. Here, I'll give you a choice. Let's go back and say Montana and Faulk are coming out in the same draft...with our current team, who would YOU take? Um, DUH, Montana.

You seem to think that passing up on a sure-fire QB is okay. I don't. I quite agree that supporting cast does matter in a young QBs development, but you're hardly ever, IF ever, going to have a perfect team that simply needs the right QB plugged in for it to work. Under the circumstances you preach, we'd NEVER draft a franchise QB.

Would Montana be the Montana that we know if he did not have Rice, Taylor, Jones, Allen, etc to throw to?

 

[Russ Smith]

Would Montana be the Montana that we know if he did not have Rice, Taylor, Jones, Allen, etc to throw to?

True, the lineup he inherited in SF was pretty amazing, can you name any of them without looking it up?

I gotta admit the only ones I knew without cheating were Earl Cooper, Freddie Solomon, and Dwight Clark, and only Solomon was an established player pre Montana, he and Clark broke in together.

 

[RedViper]

If you know going in (which is impossible) you have a choice between a future hall of fame QB or Reciever, then I agree you get the QB. Its definitely the case however, you can draft the future HOF QB, put him into an awful situation, have him play awfully and declare him a bust. See below.

"However, the league ceased operations in 1985 after a disastrous move to a fall/winter schedule to compete with the National Football League, and Young signed with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers after being the first player selected in that year's supplemental draft. However, the Buccaneers posted 2-14 win-loss records in each of Young's two seasons with them, and Young's record as starter was a miserable 3-16. When the Buccaneers selected University of Miami quarterback Vinny Testaverde first overall in the 1987 NFL draft, Young was deemed a bust and traded to the San Francisco 49ers on April 24, 1987, to serve as a backup to Joe Montana."

 

[Stout]

If you know going in (which is impossible) you have a choice between a future hall of fame QB or Reciever, then I agree you get the QB. Its definitely the case however, you can draft the future HOF QB, put him into an awful situation, have him play awfully and declare him a bust. See below.

"However, the league ceased operations in 1985 after a disastrous move to a fall/winter schedule to compete with the National Football League, and Young signed with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers after being the first player selected in that year's supplemental draft. However, the Buccaneers posted 2-14 win-loss records in each of Young's two seasons with them, and Young's record as starter was a miserable 3-16. When the Buccaneers selected University of Miami quarterback Vinny Testaverde first overall in the 1987 NFL draft, Young was deemed a bust and traded to the San Francisco 49ers on April 24, 1987, to serve as a backup to Joe Montana."

Sure it can happen that way, but if you draft scared and say, 'ooh, I don't want to draft a QB because I'm afraid of what'll happen if he's not surrounded with talent', well, your chances of making ANY kind of good personnel decision are suspect.

 

[gusmahler]

No way I take Larry over Ben for our team. We have an abundance of receivers but no one approaching the status of a Big Ben and no one even on the horrizon of a Big Ben.

Huh? We have an abundance of receivers BECAUSE of Fitz. Without Fitz, we'd have Quan and a bunch of nobodies. With Fitz, we have the best WR combination in the league.

 

[BigRedFan]

Big Ben might well have struggled here with less of a supporting cast, then we might have wished we had drafted Fitz. Big Ben was a good fit for Pittsburgh; they were each good fits for their respective teams. Im not saying Big Ben wouldnt have been a good pick, but at the time, Fitz seemed more like a sure thing than Big Ben. ANY other year and I would have traded any of our picks for Big Ben.

 

[RedViper]

I'm dead set against drafting scared. But just as dead set against drafting stupidly. To me it seems the best way is to have a plan, and a vision for the future, having some luck on your side and someone who knows how to avoid the Tommy Knights and Wendall Bryants of this world. With hindsight Rothligsberger would been a great pick. Like the 8 or 9 teams below us, we didn't pull the trigger on him. But the guy we pulled the trigger on is also a great pick. The future looks good. We finally seem to have someone who knows what the hell they are doing on draft day. And IMHO anyone that uses the BigBen case to trash the current regime is off in the trees.

 

[Pariah]

And IMHO anyone that uses the BigBen case to trash the current regime is off in the trees.

Couple of things:

1. No one is "trashing" the current regime
2. No one thinks Fitz isn;t ALSO a good pick
3. No one is claiming Roethlisberger is in the superbowl this year with the cardinals

All those things said, I liked Big Ben as the pick then, and even knowing all of these things, I still would have preferred that pick today.

 

[DieHardCardFan]

WOW!

I really can't believe people think Big Ben is a better player than Fitz. But you are entitled.

Yeah he is a good QB, but Fitzgerald is an AMAZING WR.

Cut it up anyway you like but Fitzgerald is a great WR, he is young, and has shown he can play with the best under any conditions.

Ben is surrounded by a GREAT team right now. I wanna see how he handles the downside of the rollercoaster.

Fitz is the better pick.

Exactly!!!!!

 

[RedViper]

Couple of things:

1. No one is "trashing" the current regime
2. No one thinks Fitz isn;t ALSO a good pick
3. No one is claiming Roethlisberger is in the superbowl this year with the cardinals

All those things said, I liked Big Ben as the pick then, and even knowing all of these things, I still would have preferred that pick today.

Okay, like I stated earlier in the thread, one of the nitwits in the Repulsive used the Rothligsberger example to strafe the current regime. He said almost nothing about the merits of Fitz in our stable and almost seemed to paint a picture of Rothligshberger throwing to Fitz, hoping to slip that by the morons he was catering his argument to. If by "no one" you mean the good citizens of ASFN-land, then I agree, no one around here seems that stupid. But I can't say that about the local media or your generally uninformed, totally biased Cardinal haters.

My overall point, back to the very beginning of the thread is; its definitely debateable whether we should have taken Rothligsberger or Fitz. People can make intelligent arguments either way and it will take the fullness of time to settle the debate. To me, the Leftwich/BJ Pace thing holds a hell of a lot more water.

 

[chickenhead]

I like Ben a lot. If we're going to give him credit for his performance on a good team, then we also have to give Fitzgerald credit for his fantastic performance on a bad team. If we actually do land a good QBOF in the next couple of years, I think we're better off for our situation. Maybe we can pick up an undrafted running back, like Parker, too...