If Green believes in the system, trade down

[Jetstream Green]

If Green truely believes that it is his system that produces wins, then it is very possible that he will trade down. Two quality players are better than one great one if the system he puts in place is valid. We will see.

 

[JeffGollin]

Two quality players are better than one great one
Kinda like Pace and Johnson instead of Suggs?

Being locked into any strategy to conform to some pre-thought-out axiom would be a mistake. There are different circumstances from year to year.

Two quality players are better than a great one if the 2 players are good enough and the great one is not so good.

Sometimes trading down works; sometimes it doesn't. And it depends how far you're willing to trade down and what value you'll get in return.

It all comes down to evaluating players properly and making the right decisions to achieve your goals.

I see 3 or 4 variables that need to be considered:

1. Are Manning and Roethlisberger really that good and how important is it not to pass up the opportunity to land a franchise QB?

2. The value we get back in return (How far are we willing to trade down and what are teams willing to trade us?)

3. Somewhat related to #2 - How deep in blue chip and red chip players is this draft? (Is the pool of blue-chippers truly 8 players?) And how far are we willing to trade down? Maybe we can grab an extra pick and still get a blue chip player if we don't trade down too far.

4. What's the current Cardinal roster really like? Last year, Rod felt he needed to bulk up with mid-level talent in order to solidify "the belly" of the football team. If he and Denny feel they must continue to feed the belly, then trading quality for quality might make sense.

But I contend that the problem with the Cardinals last year wasn't that they lacked enough mid-level talent. It was that when they'd go to the well to come from behind or nail down a lead, there was very little left in the tank - i.e. we lacked the truly dominant athletes who could step up and consistently make things happen.

(Note - There were exceptions - McCown to Poole to name one biggie. But I don't think we could expect the team as currently constructed to pull this off regularly).

In other words, I think we need the infusion of 3 or 4 more really talented players and not any more overachieving character types - we've got plenty of those. This would suggest landing at least one blue chip player with our top draft pick (whether it be at #3 or maybe as low as #eight).

But, to repeat what I said initially, there are no hard and fast rules about trading quality for quantity that can be applied the same way from year to year.

 

[Pariah]

Isn't part of green's "system" to draft the best available player?

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by Pariah
Isn't part of green's "system" to draft the best available player?

 

[Northern Card]

Originally posted by Pariah
Isn't part of green's "system" to draft the best available player?

So he trades down and picks the best available player at that point, and remains true to his "system".

 

[DevonCardsFan]

Trading down is so stupid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Like you much rather have Pace and Johnson,then Suggs or Leftwich.


Why would you pass on guys like S Taylor,Fitsgerald, Manning, Ben,to land2ok guys. Thats dumb, took guys will not turn this team around, but guys like S Taylor or Fitzgerald who instantly upgrade your team do. Trading down is garbage and pointless, CArds lack impact players,lets get impact players, not ok guys

 

[CaptTurbo]

Originally posted by DevonCardsFan
Trading down is so stupid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Like you much rather have Pace and Johnson,then Suggs or Leftwich.

ill take pace and johnson over suggs. I really believe it was the coaching that explains big, pace, bryant and so on.

We will see.....

 

[Lex]

I hate trading down, seems cheap to me.

However,

I'm trusting Denny this year. I could embrace a trade down to the #5-8 pick, NO LOWER. I would do this, to get a shot at DeAngelo Hall with a lower #2 pick. He's a two-fer.

Denny Green was asked if he's ever had a pick this high?

He said no.

I would love to be picking in the 30's for the next 5 years.

 

[vikesfan]

There are 2 problems:

Pace and Johnson are not quality players... the trade down is not so bad if you take Steinbach and Barnett/Bailey.

Suggs filled a key need and was quality.


I would not trade down for another 2 draft picks. I would trade down if you are given a draft pick and a guaranteed young nfl starter like Ogunlye.

Do a deal with MIA you will get #20 pick there will be a OT CB DT there to grab.

AND you get a proven DE in Ogunlye and his 15 sacks and you get the #1 pick in round 2 SWEET.

There are no hard and fast rules.

If a QB is there and you really dont want him trade down for a pick and proven NFL starter.

No matter where you draft or who you draft nothing is a sure thing. Even OTs have busted remember Mandrich.

 

[Pariah]

Originally posted by vikesfan
There are 2 problems:

Pace and Johnson are not quality players... the trade down is not so bad if you take Steinbach and Barnett/Bailey.

I'd say it's too early to tell, but they certainly didn't bust yet.

 

[HeavyB3]

I don't know how you can contend that Pace and Johnson are not quality players after one year. Sure Pace didn't have alot of sacks, but he's proved he's durable. Also, he arguably had a horrible line coach and may not have conditioned properly, I think we see him improve dramatically this year.

Johnson just looks bad when you compare him to Boldin, which isn't fair. Boldin was obviously more ready to make the leap to the NFL than Johnson was, but Johnson still put up great numbers and was improving as the season went on. I think in the years to come Bryan Johnson and Anquan Bolidn will be a top receiving duo.

 

[vikesfan]

Pace and Johnson were not in the running for rookie of the year.
Pace and Johnson were not legit starters. Pace and Johnson simply did not produce enough.

Compared to Suggs it is a joke. Heck even Gross Leftwich and K Williams outdid them. And as for other players who were taken after them...

Sure Pace might become a 10 sack man and so could Bryant and Johnson and KVB. And Johnson well look at McAddley and all those other dudes at WR. The odds are not good. I don't care if Vince Lombardi is the coach.

How many years you all gonna wait on these guys? One year two years three years.


Sure they will get their shot this year. And we will see. I have more hope for Johnson then Pace. But even if Johnson becomes a good NFL player. He is not a worthy #6 pick in Round 1.

That is the beauty of football. All hypotheses are tested.

 

[Pariah]

Originally posted by vikesfan
Pace and Johnson were not in the running for rookie of the year.
Pace and Johnson were not legit starters. Pace and Johnson simply did not produce enough.

Niether were 217 other rookies, including 28 first round picks. Does that mean that they aren't quality picks? Because that's what we're talking about here, right? Trading one very high draft pick for two quality picks?

I'm not in favor of moving out of the number three spot, but just because a rook isn't in line for ROY doesn't mean he's not quality.

 

[JeffGollin]

Pace and Johnson simply did not produce enough.
As unfair as that may seem, I agree.

A few years back, you could make the case for drafting in the hope that the player would develop over the long haul.

But free agency has narrowed that window considerably. Players drafted in the first round (certainly above #20) are now expected to produce right away.

This was probably magnified by the fact that the Cards had such pressing voids in their roster for both a pass rusher and dominant receiver.

 

[Rivercard]

Originally posted by JeffGollin
Pace and Johnson simply did not produce enough.
As unfair as that may seem, I agree.

A few years back, you could make the case for drafting in the hope that the player would develop over the long haul.

But free agency has narrowed that window considerably. Players drafted in the first round (certainly above #20) are now expected to produce right away.

This was probably magnified by the fact that the Cards had such pressing voids in their roster for both a pass rusher and dominant receiver.

I disagree. I thought all in all the rooks had a pretty decent season. It was the vets who dissapointed.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by Rivercard
I disagree. I thought all in all the rooks had a pretty decent season. It was the vets who dissapointed.

Yeah, so do I. Maybe not so much at the defensive end position (though none of the ends besides Suggs did anything last year), but definately at WR.

Mid-round (15 and below) WRs are expected to contribute as rookies, but are rarely expected to start, and more rare still to be expected to be immediate stars. No one--not Rod Graves, not Dave Mac, not Sullivan--expected B. Johnson to establish himself as a wide reciever in 2003. If you were disappointed in Bryant Johnson, Jeff, you were expecting far, far too much. His numbers were right in line with a WR picked where he was, as I illustrated in another thread that you never replied to.

 

[Lex]

Suggs?

If we don't draft Terrell Suggs, it'll be a bigger mistake than not drafting Jonathan Ogden, or Brian Urlacher.

Water under the bridge.

Suggs has been quoted as saying most players play for three teams in their career, and he would love to come back home someday. He's currently 21, he could be back here by the time he's 24, in our second year in the new venue.

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by vikesfan
There are 2 problems:

Pace and Johnson are not quality players... the trade down is not so bad if you take Steinbach and Barnett/Bailey.

Suggs filled a key need and was quality.

Steinbach went in the 2nd round, so if we'd have drafted him, we would have "reached". Barnett was actually considered a mistake by many "experts" on draft day who didn't think he could play MLB.

Negatives: Does not have great size or big frame. Has to be playing against air or gets engulfed. Takes bad angles at times. Slow to shed blocks and plays better in space. Gets walled off and sealed. Will downshift when changing directions.

Summary: Strong safety/outside linebacker tweener with the frame of a safety, though with added weight looks more like a linebacker. Although he's no Adam Archuleta, he might have been better suited to play safety at the next level before adding weight.

* Player biographies are provided by Pro Football Weekly.

From ESPN's grades:

Boom or bust: You hate to say it about anyone's first round, but since Barnett is such a late-bloomer, you have to view him with a jaundiced eye until he demonstrates that he is the real deal.
Grade: C- |

I don't think Bailey is all that good either, I don't think he'd have played in front of either Fisher or Thompson as a rookie, Detroit just had nobody else to play at that spot. He had a nice year but nothing special yet.

The jury is out on Johnson and Pace but of your list only Steinbach is clearly better right now and we could have gotten him 14-15 picks later since Cincy did.

I still think Pace will be a player, I'm not sure yet about Johnson his hands concern me.

 

[Russ Smith]

To clarify, I'm not denying Barnett was a quality rookie and better than either guy, just saying at the time nobody was saying that, Green Bay fans were actually mad at that pick because he was supposed to be a pumped up safety. Very good young player, just saying you can't really "fault" Graves for not picking him he was a project pick at the time.

 

[40yearfan]

Originally posted by vikesfan
Pace and Johnson were not in the running for rookie of the year.
Pace and Johnson were not legit starters. Pace and Johnson simply did not produce enough.

Compared to Suggs it is a joke. Heck even Gross Leftwich and K Williams outdid them. And as for other players who were taken after them...

Sure Pace might become a 10 sack man and so could Bryant and Johnson and KVB. And Johnson well look at McAddley and all those other dudes at WR. The odds are not good. I don't care if Vince Lombardi is the coach.

How many years you all gonna wait on these guys? One year two years three years.


Sure they will get their shot this year. And we will see. I have more hope for Johnson then Pace. But even if Johnson becomes a good NFL player. He is not a worthy #6 pick in Round 1.

That is the beauty of football. All hypotheses are tested.

How many Cardinal games did you see this year? You can't make an assessment of a players qualifications strictly by looking as their stats. Did they start out slow and get better as the year progressed? Also Johnson was a #17 pick, not a #6.

 

[Stout]

Originally posted by Rivercard
I disagree. I thought all in all the rooks had a pretty decent season. It was the vets who dissapointed.

I'm sorry, but Pace did NOT have a pretty decent rookie season. He had a horrid rookie season for a pass rushing DE (which is what the hell he is SUPPOSED to be!!!). Not saying he won't pick up his game and maybe develop next year and beyond, but I really don't think many can say he had a good season...if they take off the rose-colored glasses.

Okay, I'm ready for LV to come after me now

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by Stout
I'm sorry, but Pace did NOT have a pretty decent rookie season. He had a horrid rookie season for a pass rushing DE (which is what the hell he is SUPPOSED to be!!!). Not saying he won't pick up his game and maybe develop next year and beyond, but I really don't think many can say he had a good season...if they take off the rose-colored glasses.

Okay, I'm ready for LV to come after me now

I wont come after you. We have had plenty of discussion on this topic already!













<LONG PAUSE>

















Oh hell....I cant resist...hahaha I would never use the word Horrible. True he didnt get a lot of sacks, but as Jim O pointed out he did have 13 QB hurries and he also had 38+ tackles.

I guess my question for you would be then this:

1. If this was a horrible season what would have constituted an average season? Are you looking at sack numbers only?

2. Have you glanced at the other DE's stats taken before and after him in the draft? He holds up pretty well. I guess they all must be HORRIBLE?

 

[Stout]

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
[BOh hell....I cant resist...hahaha I would never use the word Horrible. True he didnt get a lot of sacks, but as Jim O pointed out he did have 13 QB hurries and he also had 38+ tackles.

I guess my question for you would be then this:

1. If this was a horrible season what would have constituted an average season? Are you looking at sack numbers only?

2. Have you glanced at the other DE's stats taken before and after him in the draft? He holds up pretty well. I guess they all must be HORRIBLE? [/B]

Ah, I'm not trying to say he IS horrible, I'm saying he had a horrible rookie season for a pass rushing DE. I'm not going to comment on those drafted around them because, frankly, I think there was only one first-round quality DE in the draft.

I'd expect, if the guy was showing good but not spectacular skills getting to the QB, that a mid-1st round pass rushing DE would get somewhere in the 3-6 sack range. Don't quote me on that, because that's a wild guess, and my own opinion. I'm not saying all rookies DEs would, but all of the ones that are showing true promise.

Sure, there are exceptions, but I don't think you see that many Strahans. And, even so, that must have been a pleasant surprise. And I certainly wouldn't say Strahan had a good rookie season...quite the opposite! I think it'd be shortsighted to say he has.

To say Pace didn't have a good rookie campaign is not indicting his potential. It's saying last season wasn't that great. Hopefully he can turn it up a notch next year

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by Stout
I'd expect, if the guy was showing good but not spectacular skills getting to the QB, that a mid-1st round pass rushing DE would get somewhere in the 3-6 sack range. Don't quote me on that, because that's a wild guess, and my own opinion.

I dont think that a rookie DE having 3-6 sacks in his first year is extreme either. In fact I would say that might be a good number to build on.

However for a rookie DE playing out of position, on a D-Line with no talent, for a coahcing staff with no talent, and who was kinda thrown into the mix after an injury, I think he had At Least an average season.

 

[Stout]

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
I dont think that a rookie DE having 3-6 sacks in his first year is extreme either. In fact I would say that might be a good number to build on.

However for a rookie DE playing out of position, on a D-Line with no talent, for a coahcing staff with no talent, and who was kinda thrown into the mix after an injury, I think he had At Least an average season.

No, I can't agree...those MAY be mitigating factors, or maybe not. We can't know. I have hope for him next year, yes. I hope he develops. I, for one, am not going to hope so much that he and/or Johnson and/or KVB develops that I don't want to sign a pass rushing DE in FA. To go into next season with just these guys, IMO, would be suicidal. I don't care if Champ Bailey is back there with Starks...unless they step it up about ten thousand notches, it won't matter, because they can't cover for 10 seconds