Is Skinner Now In Play?

[azirish]

With the signing of Yi by the Bucks, the chances of Brian Skinner returning to Milwaukee dropped dramatcially. He may still be re-signed, but not at more than vet minimum. Yi represents their 13th guaranteed contract.

If Yi had stayed in China, Skinner would have had considerble leverage with a team which has salaries below $60 million.
http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/milwaukee.htm. But with Yi being promised playing time along with Villanueva at power forward, the minutes aren't there for more than a deep bench guy.

From the standpoing of the Suns, Skinner is far less attractive to them than PJ Brown despite being younger and more athletic. PJ Brown is a better mid range shooter and very good free throw shooter, while Skinner has no shooting range at all. Also, PJ is taller and longer than Skinner.

According to Hoopshype:http://www.hoopshype.com/players/brian_skinner.htm

An athletic banger... Very strong... Very good rebounding ability... Very active defender... Decent offensive player... Bad from the foul line.

Due to his minimal offensive skills, the tendency is to assume that Skinner wouldn't be able to play for D'Antoni. That's a reasonable concern, but the Suns went through this a few years when they signed Hunter. It is not out of the question that Skinner could play a similar role as Hunter did.

Comparing Hunter to Skinner is interesting since both had just over 22 minutes per game last season:

SIZE:
Hunter 7'0" 240
Skinner 6'9" 265

SCORING
Hunter 6.4 ppg 57.7%
Skinner 4.4 ppg 49.0%

REBOUNDING
Hunter 4.8 rpg
Skinner 5.7 rpg

BLOCKS
Hunter 1.1 bpg
Skinner 1.0 bpg

On the Suns, Huntered averaged 0.33 pp minute while last year Hunter averaged 0.279 pp minute. It seems likely that even with his limited offensive skills, Skinner would be able to do what Hunter did.

The big issue with signing Skinner is that it might make it harder to get PJ, since PJ on the theory that there would be more competition for 8th slot minutes. But if the Suns get to training camp with no progress on the PJ front AND they can sign Skinner for vet minimum, it would make sense to do so.

Would he sign? It's hard to say. I can't see the Suns offering over vet minimum (especially if there is a remote chance of getting PJ). So a lot would depend on whether he gets other offers from playoff teams.

The history of the Suns with Hunter might give him some hope he could work his way into the rotation. Marion is not much of a shooter either and he gets a huge number of minutes. Hunter went from waivers to a nice contrct in one year after playing for the Suns.

In any case, with Yi signed it looks like Skinner will get more attention.

 

[JCSunsfan]

God love you AI, you are such an optimist. I used to be one of those, but this ownership group has cured me of it almost completely.

No, I doubt we'd have any interest in Skinner. Yes, he might be in play but we are not shopping.

 

[Rab]

God love you AI, you are such an optimist. I used to be one of those, but this ownership group has cured me of it almost completely.

No, I doubt we'd have any interest in Skinner. Yes, he might be in play but we are not shopping.

Couldn't have said it any better myself.

I'd be interested in him as a fan, but it's almost as certain as the Spurs bouncing us out of the playoffs that the FO is only interested in the PJ sweepstakes. If they don't sign him, they'll offer a scrub a non-guaranteed deal just to fill the last remaining roster spot.

This is what worries me. We plan on waiting PJ out as long as possible, but there really isn't anything else on the horizon according to the FO that would even come close to solving our size deficiency.

I'm guessing he's asking for more than the Suns are willing to pay.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Couldn't have said it any better myself.

I'd be interested in him as a fan, but it's almost as certain as the Spurs bouncing us out of the playoffs that the FO is only interested in the PJ sweepstakes. If they don't sign him, they'll offer a scrub a non-guaranteed deal just to fill the last remaining roster spot.

This is what worries me. We plan on waiting PJ out as long as possible, but there really isn't anything else on the horizon according to the FO that would even come close to solving our size deficiency.

I'm guessing he's asking for more than the Suns are willing to pay.

completely agree, although to be honest, Skinner doesn't even do much for me as a fan either.

 

[azirish]

completely agree, although to be honest, Skinner doesn't even do much for me as a fan either.

He's not a very good fit, but seems to be the "best of the rest".

Perhaps I am a wild eyed optimist. But i weary of the prevailing tone of this board?

1. The Suns are too cheap because they got rid of KT (with stuff going back to JJ).

2. The Suns are supid because they won't play a conventional lineup.

3. The Suns are stupid and won't sign someone cheap who might help them.

4. Anyone who thinks othersiwe is simply naive or worse.

I don't think they are stupid or even overwhelmingly cheap. That doesn't mean I agree with their decisions, but that is a long way from considering them to be stupid (or some variation on that theme).

 

[elindholm]

He's not a very good fit, but seems to be the "best of the rest".

I agree. I'd much rather have Skinner than nobody.

1. The Suns are too cheap because they got rid of KT (with stuff going back to JJ).

There you go again. What is "too cheap"? The term has no meaning. In the delicate balancing act between pursuing profit and trying to win a championship, the Suns are too much toward the profit side for the tastes of many here.

2. The Suns are supid because they won't play a conventional lineup.

Not stupid, stubborn, and it comes from D'Antoni. Surely you'd concede that D'Antoni has shown spectacular streaks of stubbornness during his time with the Suns. As Errntknght and others have theorized -- and almost certainly correctly -- D'Antoni wants to prove that his "system" can work in the NBA, to the extent that he'd rather lose while trying than win via a method contrary to his principles and ego.

3. The Suns are stupid and won't sign someone cheap who might help them.

I don't think anyone is saying this. The Suns are "too cheap" to add any real help, with the exception of Brown, who may or may not be on the market. While I personally would consider Skinner worth pursuing, the reality is that he probably wouldn't help, since D'Antoni wouldn't play him. There are other players out there who probably could be had right now in a trade under the Thomas exception (Damon Stoudamire, for one), but the Suns have apparently deemed them all too expensive.

4. Anyone who thinks othersiwe is simply naive or worse.

I do think it is naive to take every rah-rah from management at face value. The Suns have made one thing abundantly clear this summer: it's a business. Part of business is talking your product up to increase sales. So part of the slick campaign is to talk about Stoudemire's defense, or Hill's playmaking, or Strawberry's unexpected tenacity, or Marion's newfound sense of purpose. Sure. That doesn't make any of it true.

That doesn't mean I agree with their decisions

But you do agree with their self-serving explanations for every cost-cutting move they've made so far this summer. Or, if you don't, you have failed to articulate how and why you disagree.

 

[Rab]

completely agree, although to be honest, Skinner doesn't even do much for me as a fan either.

I don't think Skinner is a difference maker, but he is better than nothing.

 

[azirish]

But you do agree with their self-serving explanations for every cost-cutting move they've made so far this summer. Or, if you don't, you have failed to articulate how and why you disagree.

Certainly sounds like you are using different words to mean the same thing. Do you really think that being "too stubborn" is not stupid?

Let's be clear. I may try to explain their rationale, but I don't necessarily agree with it. I have been pushing for a real big to play WITH Amare for quite a while. I wrote prior to the Spurs series that they need to start KT based on my evaluation of what did and didn't work for the Nuggets in the first round. I opposed unloading KT without a replacement in place and have said repeatedly I think it could come back to haunt them.

The difference is that I at least try to understand their point of view. I don't think you even try. Trying to understand does not mean agreement, but it avoids the trap of responding to every suggestion with another rant.

How is it that I'm always viewed as a defender of "official version" if I'm the one that keeps getting shot down for making suggestions that "the Suns would never do"? Perhaps the difference is that when I disagree with what they are doing, I try to make positive suggestions rather than rant against D'Antoni, Sarver, and Kerr. But accusing me of agreeing with everything they do or say is just wrong.

 

[elindholm]

Certainly sounds like you are using different words to mean the same thing. Do you really think that being "too stubborn" is not stupid?

They're not the same at all. I have streaks of stubbornness too, but I'm not stupid. And there are stupid people who are quite easily persuaded to change their minds.

The difference is that I at least try to understand their point of view. I don't think you even try.

Heck, I don't need to "try"; I understand their point of view perfectly well. It is:

1. We don't want to be a huge luxury tax payer.

2. We've had some tantalizing regular-season success with small ball, and arguably come close in the playoffs.

3. We have convenient excuses for why the title has eluded us each of the last three years.

4. Our current aspiration is to win a title playing small, which means that lots of potential ways of improving the team aren't appealing, since they conflict with the mission.

5. Small ball sells tickets, and as long as we put fans in the seats and appear to be a top team, it doesn't really matter if we're built for postseason success.

I may have left a point or two out, but that's the gist of it.

Trying to understand does not mean agreement, but it avoids the trap of responding to every suggestion with another rant.

But there's a huge difference between "trying to understand" and becoming a card-carrying spin doctor.

This summer, you have repeatedly made a bunch of observations about how Diaw is going to flourish again with new responsibilities, Stoudemire is determined to become more of a playmaker, Hill can run the offense while Nash is getting Mauled, Marion just needs to be coached a little differently, Strawberry is going to provide critical backcourt grit, and so on. (These are paraphrases, so please don't nitpick about the exact wording.) These are all things that we'd like to see happen, but there's zero evidence that they will. How is that "trying to understand"? Understanding doesn't come from hopes and dreams, but from evidence.

We all "understand" what the Suns want to do -- heck, it couldn't be more obvious: They want to win a title playing only seven or eight guys, only one of whom is taller than 6' 8". And we can all fantasize about what magical set of circumstances might make that dream feasible. How is that "understanding"? Any fool can write a fairy tale; what's interesting is to write intelligent science fiction that makes educated readers think, "Yeah, that could actually happen."

How is it that I'm always viewed as a defender of "official version" if I'm the one that keeps getting shot down for making suggestions that "the Suns would never do"?

I didn't shoot down your suggestion of Skinner. I agreed that he's a lot better than nothing. And heck, the Suns might even go after him, for all I know. I don't think he'd help much, for reasons I've already articulated, but that's not the fault of the player or of your suggestion.

But to answer your broader question, maybe the reason that you come across as pro-management is that you constantly attack those of us who are critical. According to you, we are tiring, or tedious, or whining, or pouting, or alarmist, or just knee-jerk naysayers. If you actually think some of the criticisms are valid -- and now you are saying you do, coincidentally as the prospects for Brown dwindle -- then why berate those of us who voice them?

Perhaps the difference is that when I disagree with what they are doing, I try to make positive suggestions rather than rant against D'Antoni, Sarver, and Kerr.

Fair enough, I guess, but your "suggestions" are along the lines of teaching Strawberry to shoot or implementing off-the-ball screens or installing a defensive system based on real court awareness. And I may well be guilty of having shot down those suggestions as impractical or unrealistic, because I think they are.

We have a huge difference of belief about how much it is really possible to change the games of NBA players. With an excellent tactical coach, yes, it's probably possible to effect slight changes, but D'Antoni is no such coach, and I doubt you would argue that he is. For the most part, players do whatever it is they've grown up doing, or they follow very simple instructions: feed the post and cut over here, chase shooters off the three-point line, that sort of thing.

Keep in mind that the Suns' core has very little college experience. Only Nash, Bell, and Hill were in school for more than a year, and only Hill went to a school with a major basketball program. Marion left after a single season, Stoudemire had no college at all, and Barbosa and Diaw grew up in junior pro leagues. So you're talking about a group of players who, for the most part, have gotten by with self-teaching and learning while doing. Their fundamentals are lousy, and aside from minor tinkering, it's too late to change anything central to their approach.

Simply put, asking players to address basic flaws in their games, or actually play like a cohesive unit, isn't the way it's done in today's NBA. Probably it should be, but it's not. The way you win is, you get players whose games already fit well together, you establish a few basic concepts, and you let them take care of the rest. The reason that the Suns' offense works so well is that Nash is brilliant, everyone else's job is easy, and D'Antoni stays out of the way.

The gap that the Suns face on the other end of the floor is too big to be overcome with coaching. At least three of their core (Nash, Stoudemire, and Diaw) are flat-out awful defensively, among the worst 10% in the league. In Nash's case it's probably a physical limitation, Stoudemire is just way too far behind in his fundamentals, and Diaw is a man without a position, nowhere near strong enough to guard bigs and nowhere near agile enough to guard wings. The Suns need at least one more real player -- someone big, someone well trained, someone experienced, someone who gets it. All of the creative X's and O's in the world aren't going to make up for that.

 

[azirish]

I think guys can improve their games. I'm also convinced that it is very hit and miss in getting guys to jump their performance levels.

My views

1. There is no doubt that the Suns are committed to speed over power. I prefer to have the option of playing power ball if just to give the other team something to think about. I went so far as to suggest a lineup with Mutombo and guys who can press, just to create a change of pace. No one beleives D'Antoni would buy into it, but I think it would work with some of the guys the Suns have now.

2. The number of bigs who can perform well in the Suns back and forth style is small. D'Antoni felt that KT was not athletic enough for the pace he was after and wanted to operate at. I don't agree with him, but I do think D'Antoni hoped to phase KT out even if he stayed on the team and had no intention of playing a conventional lineup.

3. I suspect that D'Antoni is prepared to accept a fairly weak defense in order to get a superior offense. It appears that he thinks he can "run their bigs off the court" with an efficient, speed oriented offense. Like everyone else, I am not convinced they can do that to everyone.

4. I said I felt they were clearly counting on Diaw to step it up. I also said it is a huge risk because he's not proven himself as a low post defender and is very poor as a rebounder. Obviously the fact that Diaw is in better shape should help and his offense is almost certain to improve when moved inside. But his defense has to make some substantial improvements or the Suns will have major problems. I am concerned that he lacks the strength and tenacity to play sound post defense.

5. I have said repreatedly that Amare has to learn to play defense without fouling. I am hopeful that D'Antoni is right and he's makiing progress, but Amare has to improve a lot or the Suns will have serious defensive problems.

6. I have said repeatedly that I think the Suns need a "defense guru" who can get the team to play better team defense. If feels like they are constantly a step slow, out of position, don't block out properly, and make too many rotation mistakes. I don't know if it is coaching or the players, but without a great straight on shot blocker there is far less margin for error. In any case, they need to be a lot more agressive on defense.

7. I have been on Marion's case for shooting too much and hitting too little. I blame D'Antoni for not limiting Marion to shoot from the few spots where he's got good percentages and not let him take more shots than Amare.

8. I have been pushing for the Suns to expand their offense and not be so reliant on Nash and the pick n roll. I have hopes that they will change, but have said I fear his laissez faire approach will have Nash continue to do all the work. It leads everyone else to stand around waiting for Steve to pass the ball for an open shot.

9. I have been ragging on the Suns rebounding including showing how rebounding is key to winning a championship. I said that this is Diaw's biggest failing and in general the players have to be more focused on getting scramble rebounds because they will always be too short. Everybody I've suggested to be signed is first and foremost rebounders. You don't have to be big, but you do have to be agressive to get the ball and that has not been emphasized enough.

I could go on, but I don't see this as blindly supporting the party line.

 

[BC867]

5. I have said repreatedly that Amare has to learn to play defense without fouling.

Is it a question of 'learning' to play defense . . . or having another big man in the starting lineup (getting significant minutes) to take pressure off Amare?

I believe that all the learning that Amare can accumulate (and he has proven to be a quick learner) won't keep him out of foul trouble if it's STAT-and-four-lightweights on the floor. And what about when he goes to the bench?

As I've suggested before, we need two big men. One to start alongside Amare and one to spell each of them.

Anything short of that and post-season results will continue to bring disappointment. And that's frustrating.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

Dueling novels in a thread about a mediocre undersized center makes baby jesus cry.

 

[elindholm]

Dueling novels in a thread about a mediocre undersized center makes baby jesus cry.

Well, your favorite "Black Jesus" took some college courses this summer, in which he had to read a lot more than that. How about you?

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

I'm a news copy writer and editor, I read for a living. Sometimes less is more.

 

[elindholm]

I'm a news copy writer and editor, I read for a living.

Surprised you didn't catch that run-on sentence, then.

 

[fordronken]

Surprised you didn't catch that run-on sentence, then.

I was waiting for that.

 

[azirish]

Surprised you didn't catch that run-on sentence, then.

Ouch.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

If I policed every message board I read my sanity levels would drop to Sunsman44 levels.

 

[azirish]

If I policed every message board I read my sanity levels would drop to Sunsman44 levels.

Hey, no threats!

 

[JCSunsfan]

He's not a very good fit, but seems to be the "best of the rest".

Perhaps I am a wild eyed optimist. But i weary of the prevailing tone of this board?

1. The Suns are too cheap because they got rid of KT (with stuff going back to JJ).

2. The Suns are supid because they won't play a conventional lineup.

3. The Suns are stupid and won't sign someone cheap who might help them.

4. Anyone who thinks othersiwe is simply naive or worse.

I don't think they are stupid or even overwhelmingly cheap. That doesn't mean I agree with their decisions, but that is a long way from considering them to be stupid (or some variation on that theme).

AI. I'll respond here. I will say that over the years I have been one of the optimists on this board.

1. Not really. His D is highly undervalued. But even then, the big problem I have is dealing picks for cash, especially unknown future picks with no known conditions. That's not cheap, its stupid. Why is it that the picks we get in trades have conditions and the ones we send out don't. We could have a disaster year, and those could end up being high draft picks. The deals this team has made recently show that they are careless about winning now, and the value of future assets for the sake of present payroll. I love the Suns, but this is just true.

2. No. I like the lineup and speed. It works. They need to have good interior defender on their roster for specific matchups.

3. I don't know. I would rather have pooled those assets and gotten someone a little better than cheap. Grant Hill was a good pickup.

4. Of course not. I hope I was not sounding demeaning. I was describing what has happened to my thinking about this team over the last few years. The ref controversy is the icing on the cake.

 

[azirish]

For several years the issue of who would be thrown out of the boat when the salary crunch came has been that it would be Marion. Their decision to throw KT out of the boat was actually the more popular choice prior to his relatively good Spurs series.

It is not clear the Suns could have unloaded Marion for LT savings this year. The Boton deal was the best offer and that deal only made sense for the Suns if they could get KG. On its own, it was strictly a cap dump that would not even help until next season.

In any case, the deal is over and now all that matters is finding some inside help through free agency.