It's a trend

[BC867]

Regarding the controversy of starting a less-than-dominating Center, I took a look at the box scores of the eleven NBA games played yesterday.

Is is a coincidence that in nine of the eleven games, the starting Center on the winning team outplayed the starting Center on the losing team, including the Suns? Of course it is not the only factor. But it was a factor in nine out of eleven games. That cannot be overlooked.

Nuggets beat Hawks by 15 points.
Nuggets starting C Nene. 36 min. 20 points. 7 rebounds.
Hawks starting C Horford. 34 min. 7 points. 6 rebounds.

Jazz beat Timberwolves by 15.
Jazz starting C Jefferson. 39-26-11.
T'wolves starting C Milicic. 27-10-6.

Pistons beat Raptors by 14.
Pistons starting C Monroe. 35-21-10.
Raptors starting C Bargnani. 39-20-4.

Magic beat Bucks by 4 in OT.
Magic starting C Howard. 46-31-22.
Bucks starting C Sanders. 18-4-0.

Thunder beat Heat by 11.
Thunder starting C Perkins. 18-4-5.
Heat starting C Dampier. 14-1-0.

Rockets beat Bobcats by 16.
Rockets starting C Hayes. 42-9-17.
Bobcats starting C Brown. 22-6-6.

Celtics beat Pacers by 12.
Celtics starting C Krstic. 26-11-7.
Pacers starting C Hibbert. 23-6-7.

Mavericks beat Warriers by 6.
Mavericks starting C Chandler. 38-13-9.
Warriers starting C Biedrins. 22-7-8.

Hornets beat Suns by 5.
Hornets starting C Okafor. 38-16-11.
Suns starting C Lopez. 12-1-3.
(Gortat off the bench. 36-10-8)

And the two exceptions:

76ers beat Clippers by 10.
76ers starting C Hawes. 31-12-6.
Clippers starting C Jordan. 33-16-15.

Cavs beat Kings by 4. (Center stats pretty close)
Cavs starting C Hickson. 31-17-8.
Kings starting C Dalembert. 34-16-10.

Robin Lopez's 1 point and 3 rebounds (along with the Bucks Sanders 4 points and 0 rebounds and the Heats Dampier 1 point and 0 rebounds) were the worst performances of any starting Center in those eleven games.

I can't say for sure how many of those losing starting Centers are the best they have. That is certainly not the case with the Suns.

 

[SirStefan32]

Regarding the controversy of starting a less-than-dominating Center, I took a look at the box scores of the eleven NBA games played yesterday.

Is is a coincidence that in nine of the eleven games, the starting Center on the winning team outplayed the starting Center on the losing team, including the Suns? Of course it is not the only factor. But it was a factor in nine out of eleven games. That cannot be overlooked.

Nuggets beat Hawks by 15 points.
Nuggets starting C Nene. 36 min. 20 points. 7 rebounds.
Hawks starting C Horford. 34 min. 7 points. 6 rebounds.

Jazz beat Timberwolves by 15.
Jazz starting C Jefferson. 39-26-11.
T'wolves starting C Milicic. 27-10-6.

Pistons beat Raptors by 14.
Pistons starting C Monroe. 35-21-10.
Raptors starting C Bargnani. 39-20-4.

Magic beat Bucks by 4 in OT.
Magic starting C Howard. 46-31-22.
Bucks starting C Sanders. 18-4-0.

Thunder beat Heat by 11.
Thunder starting C Perkins. 18-4-5.
Heat starting C Dampier. 14-1-0.

Rockets beat Bobcats by 16.
Rockets starting C Hayes. 42-9-17.
Bobcats starting C Brown. 22-6-6.

Celtics beat Pacers by 12.
Celtics starting C Krstic. 26-11-7.
Pacers starting C Hibbert. 23-6-7.

Mavericks beat Warriers by 6.
Mavericks starting C Chandler. 38-13-9.
Warriers starting C Biedrins. 22-7-8.

Hornets beat Suns by 5.
Hornets starting C Okafor. 38-16-11.
Suns starting C Lopez. 12-1-3.
(Gortat off the bench. 36-10-8)

And the two exceptions:

76ers beat Clippers by 10.
76ers starting C Hawes. 31-12-6.
Clippers starting C Jordan. 33-16-15.

Cavs beat Kings by 4. (Center stats pretty close)
Cavs starting C Hickson. 31-17-8.
Kings starting C Dalembert. 34-16-10.

Robin Lopez's 1 point and 3 rebounds (along with the Bucks Sanders 4 points and 0 rebounds and the Heats Dampier 1 point and 0 rebounds) were the worst performances of any starting Center in those eleven games.

I can't say for sure how many of those losing starting Centers are the best they have. That is certainly not the case with the Suns.

That's what I don't understand. If Lopez was the best Center we had, it would be a different story. We have a legitimate Center who rebounds, scores, plays D, and blocks shots, yet we start a scrub?

 

[Chaplin]

I would love to see those same stats in the games we won. I'm pretty sure that would throw your "theory" right out the window.

 

[BC867]

I would love to see those same stats in the games we won. I'm pretty sure that would throw your "theory" right out the window.

It is interesting that you refer to eleven sets of stats as "theory".

Nine out of eleven is a pretty overwhelming set of probabilities.

 

[Chaplin]

It is interesting that you refer to eleven sets of stats as "theory".

Nine out of eleven is a pretty overwhelming set of probabilities.

You're claiming that in every win the winning starting center outplays the losing starting center. I can guarantee that this isn't the case, because it certainly doesn't happen in our wins.

You can't have it one way.

 

[AzStevenCal]

You know, the problem with the IGNORE feature is that you end up reading the posts you wanted to skip more often than not. You can't escape them. Which leads me to want to re-enter a conversation I swore I'd stay away from.

Can we at least put to bed one aspect of this argument. As far as this forum goes, THERE IS NO CONTROVERSY regarding which player SHOULD start. The VAST majority of the people on this board have agreed time and again that Gortat is the far superior player. We didn't just come to the realization that Lopez sucks, we've known it for quite some time. For most of us, the difference is that we don't think our season turns on which of our two centers (the slightly above mediocre one or the absolutely horrendous one) starts.

We, unfortunately, have to play both of them and Robin is a weakness when starting and his game drops appreciably when he isn't the starter. I still think he should be coming in off the bench but Gentry's choice was to allow Robin to hurt us a little or hurt us a lot. I think he's making the wrong choice because Lopez isn't the only player on the team but it's not the earth shattering difference some of you keep making it out to be.

And please notice that we didn't start losing because Gortat played behind Lopez - we started losing when we lost Frye and Steve's game began to deteriorate due to injury. This was never a very good team. At best, when healthy, we were a borderline playoff team. Now, with the reduction in Steve's effectiveness and the absence of Channing we are a solid lottery team.

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

AzStevenCal, I think some posters want a distraction at this stage of the season while the Suns are looking bad. Making a stand around Gortat being the Suns starting center is it. They do not want to hear the real reason behind the Suns demise, the injuries to Nash and Frye, as you point out.

IMO, I want to play as many players that have not seen a lot of time for the future, such as playing more players like, Brooks, Dowdell, Childress, Siler and even Lopez to see if they should be on next season's roster. If I had my way, I would rest Nash and Frye as much as possible. The Suns need them healthy and not chasing an improbable playoff spot. The Suns need the best lottery pick they can get.

 

[AzStevenCal]

AzStevenCal, I think some posters want a distraction at this stage of the season while the Suns are looking bad. Making a stand around Gortat being the Suns starting center is it. They do not want to hear the real reason behind the Suns demise, the injuries to Nash and Frye, as you point out.

IMO, I want to play as many players the Suns have not seen a lot of time for the future, such as playing more players like, Brooks, Dowdell, Childress, Siler and even Lopez to see if they should be on next season's roster. If I had my way, I would rest Nash and Frye as much as possible. The Suns need them healthy and not chasing an improbable playoff spot. The Suns need the best lottery pick they can get.

I'm convinced we are going to get lucky and draw the top pick in the lottery. Maybe I'm wrong and we end up with pick number 2 or pick number 3 but I refuse to entertain any other possibility. I figure the universe pretty much owes us at least that much and I plan on collecting this year. That's my delusion - I"ll leave the "we'd be the best team on the planet if only we started Gortat" delusionists to their own fantasies.

Steve

 

[AfroSuns]

You know, the problem with the IGNORE feature is that you end up reading the posts you wanted to skip more often than not. You can't escape them. Which leads me to want to re-enter a conversation I swore I'd stay away from.

Can we at least put to bed one aspect of this argument. As far as this forum goes, THERE IS NO CONTROVERSY regarding which player SHOULD start. The VAST majority of the people on this board have agreed time and again that Gortat is the far superior player. We didn't just come to the realization that Lopez sucks, we've known it for quite some time. For most of us, the difference is that we don't think our season turns on which of our two centers (the slightly above mediocre one or the absolutely horrendous one) starts.

We, unfortunately, have to play both of them and Robin is a weakness when starting and his game drops appreciably when he isn't the starter. I still think he should be coming in off the bench but Gentry's choice was to allow Robin to hurt us a little or hurt us a lot. I think he's making the wrong choice because Lopez isn't the only player on the team but it's not the earth shattering difference some of you keep making it out to be.

And please notice that we didn't start losing because Gortat played behind Lopez - we started losing when we lost Frye and Steve's game began to deteriorate due to injury. This was never a very good team. At best, when healthy, we were a borderline playoff team. Now, with the reduction in Steve's effectiveness and the absence of Channing we are a solid lottery team.

Steve

Nailed it!!

 

[HooverDam]

It is interesting that you refer to eleven sets of stats as "theory".

Nine out of eleven is a pretty overwhelming set of probabilities.

This is way too small of a sample size to mean anything. Its really a meaningless stat, sorry.

 

[desertdawg]

You guys are right, if we can't fix it all in one day we shouldn't fix what we can. Tank away you Lopez supporters, and hope your little lottery ball falls at the right time, hope it brings more of that Lopez quality talent yall can blindly get behind. Yes we have a lot of issues on the Suns, that doesn't mean you don't fix the ones you can. Let's just start keep starting Lopez, because we already suck, great strategies.
My beef is with Gentry, Lopez is who we thought he was, and I can't blame him for sucking it up on the court when Gentry makes the line up. Gentry has lost his way this year, we got rid of Edoh! and brought in some good players. Nash and Frye gone does hurt, but Nash played most of the game again last night. It's not like Frye makes us or breaks us, you guys say one player doesn't make a big difference. (LOLopez)

 

[elindholm]

I thought the "trend" was that BC complains about the Suns' center position in every single GD post, and that the joke of this thread was that he was finally fessing up to it.

 

[BC867]

I thought the "trend" was that BC complains about the Suns' center position in every single GD post, and that the joke of this thread was that he was finally fessing up to it.

Eric, I came back because of the point that hasn't really been addressed.

Playing Marcin starter's minutes off the bench has him routinely playing 18 minute stretches in both the 1st and 3rd quarters. Even when Gentry told the Press that he would start Gortat in every 3rd quarter, it lasted just two games.

No matter how much management is trying to tank, they shouldn't ruin the career of a solid ballplayer.

Play him no more than 12 minutes at a time and I'll accept it. Is that fair?

 

[elindholm]

Eric, I came back because of the point that hasn't really been addressed.

For god's sake almighty, where have you been? It's been addressed ad nauseum. Do you mean that Gentry himself hasn't made the change? He doesn't read this board.

What can you possibly hope to accomplish by bringing this up for the 95th time that you didn't already get after the first 94?