It's your team Mike Bidwill.

[Cbus cardsfan]

We're going to find out how serious he is about winning this off season. If he doesn't change the process the FO uses to evaluate talent then he doesn't care about winning no matter what he spews.

You can't continually miss out on the entire free agency process year after year and build a good team. It's all good to build the team through the draft as your main model but you need to supplement your roster at some point with veteran NFL players that can help the team. And the worse part is that the Cards give these guys good money so they don't only hurt the team on the field but also hurt them salary cap-wise. Brining in guys like Bradley, Heap and Adam Snyder shows that the talent evaluation process needs overhauled.

Bradley was an injured, mediocre at best, 4-3 MLB and they give him 30 mill. Snyder was the bottom of the barrel in a strong OG free agency class and he received, I think, 16 mill. Todd Heap.....well I don't even know why he was signed.

When your best free agent signing over the past few years is Jeff King, that should tell you something is very wrong. Actually I wouldn't even mind a handful of Jeff King type signings. At least you are bringing in a solid player that contributes to the team.

It almost seems like most of the time the Cards don't even have an idea of if a guy can play or fit their scheme. I remember a couple years ago begging for the Cards to bring in James Jones when he was FA. That wouldn't have been a big time signing but he would have been a perfect compliment, and deep threat the Cards were missing. Instead they were rumored to in on the heacase, clown Braylon Edwards.

This past year they didn't even look at guys like Davin Joseph, Ben Grubbs, or Carl Nicks and targeted Snyder. What kind of personell departement does that?

If Mike Bidwill goes with status quo, we know we have another run of a Bill Bidwill-type franchise to look forward to.

 

[az jam]

Agree, it starts with the owner. There are multiple threads on firing Whisenhunt but the entire organization is a joke. Get rid of Graves and bring in a real football executive to run the team like the Packers did when they brought in Tommy Thompson.

 

[Zeno]

We're going to find out how serious he is about winning this off season. If he doesn't change the process the FO uses to evaluate talent then he doesn't care about winning no matter what he spews.

Agreed. Can't also accept the offensive performance without demanding changes on the coaching staff. If that entire offensive coaching staff doesn't get fired right after our final game I don't believe he cares about winning either.

 

[az jam]

One additional point. Why is Michael Bidwill silent on everything? Is he afraid to give interviews and come out and make public statements like every other owner?? Is he in hiding?? He certainly isn't very visible.

 

[Cardsfanstl]

Great post Cbus. Yes changes have to be made regarding the front office.

 

[football karma]

CBus: you nailed the thread I was thinking of posting

Think about how this team has drafted and how it has added pro personnel over the last five years or so ---

the most spectacular misses have been on pro personnel -- and it cant be that way. You can watch a guy on film against NFL players -- and you still miss? Pro Personnel should have a much, much lower "error rate" than the draft. Think of all the guys who are signed for pretty good sized contracts, and then are gone after a year.

Think of the signing bonuses that M Bidwill has signed for the offensive line during the last 18 months or so --- I sure wouldnt be happy to pay what he has and see what is going on on the field.

So -- the move that has to be made is this: Graves must go. A real GM must be hired -- either internal ( Keim or Licht) or external. It will be the GMs job to determine if Whis is kept after next year or not.

Until that happens, talking about a new head coach is a waste of time.

 

[az jam]

So -- the move that has to be made is this: Graves must go. A real GM must be hired -- either internal ( Keim or Licht) or external. It will be the GMs job to determine if Whis is kept after next year or not.

Until that happens, talking about a new head coach is a waste of time.

I agree 100% with you on this. The Packers brought in Tommy Thompson to run the team while Mike Sherman was the HC. Thompson gave Sherman 1 more year as HC then fired him and brought in Mike McCarthy.

 

[WildBB]

If Mike Bidwill goes with status quo, we know we have another run of a Bill Bidwill-type franchise to look forward to.

As long as Papa's around, I don't see where they are going to take more high level risks. Particularly in the high levels of the FO where it's all good Ol' boys to the owners.


The OL obviously would have been worth the risk however. Signing a premier OG would have really helped this season. The way R. Williams really struggled early trying to find any daylight at all and the way they can never pick up third and short...it just is exasperating to watch ALL THE TIME. A good sidekick to Fitz (Jerome Simpson or Jones) would have obviously been a good idea in FA, then you could really focus on a bigger need early on in the draft. Reiff and DeCastro definately come to mind here. But the glaring need was ignored. Again.

 

[Chopper0080]

We're going to find out how serious he is about winning this off season. If he doesn't change the process the FO uses to evaluate talent then he doesn't care about winning no matter what he spews.

You can't continually miss out on the entire free agency process year after year and build a good team. It's all good to build the team through the draft as your main model but you need to supplement your roster at some point with veteran NFL players that can help the team. And the worse part is that the Cards give these guys good money so they don't only hurt the team on the field but also hurt them salary cap-wise. Brining in guys like Bradley, Heap and Adam Snyder shows that the talent evaluation process needs overhauled.

Bradley was an injured, mediocre at best, 4-3 MLB and they give him 30 mill. Snyder was the bottom of the barrel in a strong OG free agency class and he received, I think, 16 mill. Todd Heap.....well I don't even know why he was signed.

When your best free agent signing over the past few years is Jeff King, that should tell you something is very wrong. Actually I wouldn't even mind a handful of Jeff King type signings. At least you are bringing in a solid player that contributes to the team.

It almost seems like most of the time the Cards don't even have an idea of if a guy can play or fit their scheme. I remember a couple years ago begging for the Cards to bring in James Jones when he was FA. That wouldn't have been a big time signing but he would have been a perfect compliment, and deep threat the Cards were missing. Instead they were rumored to in on the heacase, clown Braylon Edwards.

This past year they didn't even look at guys like Davin Joseph, Ben Grubbs, or Carl Nicks and targeted Snyder. What kind of personell departement does that?

If Mike Bidwill goes with status quo, we know we have another run of a Bill Bidwill-type franchise to look forward to.

Solid post and I totally agree.

 

[kerouac9]

Joe's mentioned that we turned over the Pro Personnel side of the front office this offseason. Hopefully that redounds to our benefit.

The answers aren't out there in free agency. They rarely are.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Bradley's deal was 5 years $25M and was slashed in the offseason as part of getting under the CAP. Snyder is $16M over 5 years, which is hardly high end for a guard / tackle. An argument that neither has earned their keep can of course be made with certainty. We have just entered into the new regime with Keim as the primary driver of the draft, Licht in charge of pro personnel and a new CAP guru. This offseason will be telling and, for one, I don't expect any changes to the front office structure in the near term.

 

[imaCafan]

I would think after a game where the defense forced six turnovers and yet you still lost the game, Whiz should be on notice from MB that he is "auditioning" for next year. In other words, show me why you should be HC next year instead of giving Horton the job.

 

[football karma]

As long as Papa's around, I don't see where they are going to take more high level risks. Particularly in the high levels of the FO where it's all good Ol' boys to the owners.

Bill Sr really doesnt say much these days. Mike B does as he sees fit.

That being said: While Mike B is far mroe aggressive than his dad, its also his style to go with people he knows.

If a change is made in the FO, its likely to be an internal promotion of Keim or Licht ( my bet is on Licht)

 

[MrYeahBut]

I posted this in another thread, but it seemed to me to be on topic here:


Personally, I think it stops at Michael Bidwill. He's the one that's allowing this failure to continue. Of course, one would hope he is more level headed about this than the fans are. He also has lots of money at stake, but I would hope he realizes that fans have money at stake also....just the commas and zeros are different. I'm sure he'll look hard at the situation at seasons end. Whether he has the vision to finally figure out a way to make the changes necessary is open to debate. Now, should I pin my hopes on him being able to do this? Well, I've had hope every year that someone can do it, I guess I can wait to see if he can.

 

[Totally_Red]

Joe's mentioned that we turned over the Pro Personnel side of the front office this offseason. Hopefully that redounds to our benefit.

The answers aren't out there in free agency. They rarely are.

With the new collective bargaining agreement I think that is more true than ever. With all the added salary cap room, the successive franchises can keep most of the talent they really want. Sometimes a team is loaded at a position and you can pick someone up, but generally you have to overpay to do it.

If you have a good unit, you can improve. If you have a mediocre team, one player (unless it's Peyton Manning) won't work miracles. Here I'm thinking of the difference between Buffalo acquiring Mario Williams and the Bears acquiring Julius Peppers.

 

[Jetstream Green]

One additional point. Why is Michael Bidwill silent on everything? Is he afraid to give interviews and come out and make public statements like every other owner?? Is he in hiding?? He certainly isn't very visible.

Not every owner does not. There are a few arrogant ego driven owners like Jerry Jones that give one the impression that all owners must do this but they do not. Actually, it is bad form to make opinions when your not coaching or playing on the field and Michael will do something I'm sure eventually...but I doubt it will come with huge fanfare on his part for attention.

 

[gmabel830]

We're going to find out how serious he is about winning this off season. If he doesn't change the process the FO uses to evaluate talent then he doesn't care about winning no matter what he spews.

You can't continually miss out on the entire free agency process year after year and build a good team. It's all good to build the team through the draft as your main model but you need to supplement your roster at some point with veteran NFL players that can help the team. And the worse part is that the Cards give these guys good money so they don't only hurt the team on the field but also hurt them salary cap-wise. Brining in guys like Bradley, Heap and Adam Snyder shows that the talent evaluation process needs overhauled.

Bradley was an injured, mediocre at best, 4-3 MLB and they give him 30 mill. Snyder was the bottom of the barrel in a strong OG free agency class and he received, I think, 16 mill. Todd Heap.....well I don't even know why he was signed.

When your best free agent signing over the past few years is Jeff King, that should tell you something is very wrong. Actually I wouldn't even mind a handful of Jeff King type signings. At least you are bringing in a solid player that contributes to the team.

It almost seems like most of the time the Cards don't even have an idea of if a guy can play or fit their scheme. I remember a couple years ago begging for the Cards to bring in James Jones when he was FA. That wouldn't have been a big time signing but he would have been a perfect compliment, and deep threat the Cards were missing. Instead they were rumored to in on the heacase, clown Braylon Edwards.

This past year they didn't even look at guys like Davin Joseph, Ben Grubbs, or Carl Nicks and targeted Snyder. What kind of personell departement does that?

If Mike Bidwill goes with status quo, we know we have another run of a Bill Bidwill-type franchise to look forward to.

I was going to post something very similar to this, and think it's a great post. For me, our offensive struggles aren't about coaching and game planning, per say. We currently have a guy drafted in the 5th round draft pick and rookie 6th round draft pick as options at QB, rookie 4th/7th round draft pick at tackles, and a guy drafted in the 6th round pick & UDFA at running back -- has any team ever been successful relying on those kinds of players at so many key positions? It's not that we're currently in the situation and struggling that has me so frustrated, it's that we shouldn't have ever gotten to this position in the first place. We've been horrible at brining in free agents on the offensive side of the ball since Whiz got here, and while we have had a few late-round draft pick home runs over the years (Breaston, Hightower, LSH), there's a lot of late offensive picks that didn't pan out that could have really provided us the depth we so desparately need at some of these positions.

Here is the list of the key offensive free agents that have been brought in from other teams since Whiz was hired:

2012:
Adam Snyder (G)
2011:
Kevin Kolb (QB) - Trade
Todd Heap (TE)
Daryn Colledge (G)
Jeff King (TE)
Chansi Stuckey (WR)
Chester Taylor (RB)
2010:
Anthony Becht (TE)
Derek Anderson (QB)
Alan Faneca (G)
2009:
Dan Kreider (FB)
Oliver Ross (OT)
2008:
Jerame Tuman (TE)
2007:
Al Johnson (C)
Sean Morey (WR)
Terrelle Smith (FB)
Mike Gandy (OT)

That's just an atrocious list. Mike Gandy probably had the best ROI out of the bunch, but was by no menas a great tackle. And you could argue that Sean Morey, Jeff King, and even Daryn Colledge have been decent signings that filled needs and given us decent production. Best the rest of the list is just rittled with poor decisions and investments that did not pan out or have not panned out to this point. If we would have made better investements in our free agents over the last 3 or so years, we might not find ourselves in the position that we are in at any of the above mentioned positions

Further, particularly on the O-line, we've invested in late round picks and UDFA that we haven't developed. Herman Johnson, Trevor Canfield, Brandon Keith, DJ Young, and D'Anthony Batiste are the guys we drafted or otherwise identified and attempted to develop as offensive line depth -- Batiste is the only one left on the team and likely not going to see the field as a Cardinal again barring further injuries. If any of those guys had panned out, we might not be in the same position on the offensive line that we are in right now. Several swings and misses at both WR and TE in terms of finding young talent to build depth on the back end of the roster.

All of this has left us with a team completely lacking depth on the offensive side of the ball. Other teams have injuries, maybe not as many as us at critical positions, and are able to overcome them because they are able to plug the wholes that they do have with free agents and have backups who are able to come in and not let the level of play fall off a cliff. Particularly with our defense, I think our core of offensive players (Kolb, Beanie, R-Will, Fitz & the WRs, King/Housler) are good enough for us to be a good football team when healthy (hence the 4-0 record). The when healthy part has been the biggest factor this year, and we just don't have the depth to withstand those injuries.

We need to completely change the way we evaluate offensive talent and develop that offensive talent in order to compete over the long haul. If part of the overhaul that is necessary involves any member of the front office or removing offensive coaches and the head coach, I wouldn't be against that at this point. But, we aren't in the situation that we are in because of bad luck with injuries or coaches not being able to come up with game plans or adjustments that will make inferior talent successful, we are in it because of bad investments in talent that we have made.

 

[Jetstream Green]

I was going to post something very similar to this, and think it's a great post. For me, our offensive struggles aren't about coaching and game planning, per say. We currently have a guy drafted in the 5th round draft pick and rookie 6th round draft pick as options at QB, rookie 4th/7th round draft pick at tackles, and a guy drafted in the 6th round pick & UDFA at running back -- has any team ever been successful relying on those kinds of players at so many key positions? It's not that we're currently in the situation and struggling that has me so frustrated, it's that we shouldn't have ever gotten to this position in the first place. We've been horrible at brining in free agents on the offensive side of the ball since Whiz got here, and while we have had a few late-round draft pick home runs over the years (Breaston, Hightower, LSH), there's a lot of late offensive picks that didn't pan out that could have really provided us the depth we so desparately need at some of these positions.

Here is the list of the key offensive free agents that have been brought in from other teams since Whiz was hired:

2012:
Adam Snyder (G)
2011:
Kevin Kolb (QB) - Trade
Todd Heap (TE)
Daryn Colledge (G)
Jeff King (TE)
Chansi Stuckey (WR)
Chester Taylor (RB)
2010:
Anthony Becht (TE)
Derek Anderson (QB)
Alan Faneca (G)
2009:
Dan Kreider (FB)
Oliver Ross (OT)
2008:
Jerame Tuman (TE)
2007:
Al Johnson (C)
Sean Morey (WR)
Terrelle Smith (FB)
Mike Gandy (OT)

That's just an atrocious list. Mike Gandy probably had the best ROI out of the bunch, but was by no menas a great tackle. And you could argue that Sean Morey, Jeff King, and even Daryn Colledge have been decent signings that filled needs and given us decent production. Best the rest of the list is just rittled with poor decisions and investments that did not pan out or have not panned out to this point. If we would have made better investements in our free agents over the last 3 or so years, we might not find ourselves in the position that we are in at any of the above mentioned positions

Further, particularly on the O-line, we've invested in late round picks and UDFA that we haven't developed. Herman Johnson, Trevor Canfield, Brandon Keith, DJ Young, and D'Anthony Batiste are the guys we drafted or otherwise identified and attempted to develop as offensive line depth -- Batiste is the only one left on the team and likely not going to see the field as a Cardinal again barring further injuries. If any of those guys had panned out, we might not be in the same position on the offensive line that we are in right now. Several swings and misses at both WR and TE in terms of finding young talent to build depth on the back end of the roster.

All of this has left us with a team completely lacking depth on the offensive side of the ball. Other teams have injuries, maybe not as many as us at critical positions, and are able to overcome them because they are able to plug the wholes that they do have with free agents and have backups who are able to come in and not let the level of play fall off a cliff. Particularly with our defense, I think our core of offensive players (Kolb, Beanie, R-Will, Fitz & the WRs, King/Housler) are good enough for us to be a good football team when healthy (hence the 4-0 record). The when healthy part has been the biggest factor this year, and we just don't have the depth to withstand those injuries.

We need to completely change the way we evaluate offensive talent and develop that offensive talent in order to give us the depth necessary to compete over the long haul. If part of the overhaul that is necessary involves removing offensive coaches and the head coach, I wouldn't be against that at this point. But, we aren't in the situation that we are in because of bad luck with injuries or coaches not being able to come up with game plans or adjustments that will make inferior talent successful, we are in it because of bad investments in talent that we have made.

We also tried to get Peyton Manning and other players which did not sign with us, and usually with this club you do not really know who we went after unless they sign

 

[gmabel830]

We also tried to get Peyton Manning and other players which did not sign with us, and usually with this club you do not really know who we went after unless they sign

Fair point, but most of these guys (Snyder, Faneca, etc) were specifically targeted and the top choice of at least one key decision maker on the team.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I was going to post something very similar to this, and think it's a great post. For me, our offensive struggles aren't about coaching and game planning, per say. We currently have a guy drafted in the 5th round draft pick and rookie 6th round draft pick as options at QB, rookie 4th/7th round draft pick at tackles, and a guy drafted in the 6th round pick & UDFA at running back -- has any team ever been successful relying on those kinds of players at so many key positions? It's not that we're currently in the situation and struggling that has me so frustrated, it's that we shouldn't have ever gotten to this position in the first place. We've been horrible at brining in free agents on the offensive side of the ball since Whiz got here, and while we have had a few late-round draft pick home runs over the years (Breaston, Hightower, LSH), there's a lot of late offensive picks that didn't pan out that could have really provided us the depth we so desparately need at some of these positions.

Here is the list of the key offensive free agents that have been brought in from other teams since Whiz was hired:

2012:
Adam Snyder (G)
2011:
Kevin Kolb (QB) - Trade
Todd Heap (TE)
Daryn Colledge (G)
Jeff King (TE)
Chansi Stuckey (WR)
Chester Taylor (RB)
2010:
Anthony Becht (TE)
Derek Anderson (QB)
Alan Faneca (G)
2009:
Dan Kreider (FB)
Oliver Ross (OT)
2008:
Jerame Tuman (TE)
2007:
Al Johnson (C)
Sean Morey (WR)
Terrelle Smith (FB)
Mike Gandy (OT)

That's just an atrocious list. Mike Gandy probably had the best ROI out of the bunch, but was by no menas a great tackle. And you could argue that Sean Morey, Jeff King, and even Daryn Colledge have been decent signings that filled needs and given us decent production. Best the rest of the list is just rittled with poor decisions and investments that did not pan out or have not panned out to this point. If we would have made better investements in our free agents over the last 3 or so years, we might not find ourselves in the position that we are in at any of the above mentioned positions

Further, particularly on the O-line, we've invested in late round picks and UDFA that we haven't developed. Herman Johnson, Trevor Canfield, Brandon Keith, DJ Young, and D'Anthony Batiste are the guys we drafted or otherwise identified and attempted to develop as offensive line depth -- Batiste is the only one left on the team and likely not going to see the field as a Cardinal again barring further injuries. If any of those guys had panned out, we might not be in the same position on the offensive line that we are in right now. Several swings and misses at both WR and TE in terms of finding young talent to build depth on the back end of the roster.

All of this has left us with a team completely lacking depth on the offensive side of the ball. Other teams have injuries, maybe not as many as us at critical positions, and are able to overcome them because they are able to plug the wholes that they do have with free agents and have backups who are able to come in and not let the level of play fall off a cliff. Particularly with our defense, I think our core of offensive players (Kolb, Beanie, R-Will, Fitz & the WRs, King/Housler) are good enough for us to be a good football team when healthy (hence the 4-0 record). The when healthy part has been the biggest factor this year, and we just don't have the depth to withstand those injuries.

We need to completely change the way we evaluate offensive talent and develop that offensive talent in order to compete over the long haul. If part of the overhaul that is necessary involves any member of the front office or removing offensive coaches and the head coach, I wouldn't be against that at this point. But, we aren't in the situation that we are in because of bad luck with injuries or coaches not being able to come up with game plans or adjustments that will make inferior talent successful, we are in it because of bad investments in talent that we have made.

this is the saddest and most onpoint post of the weekend. Ouchie and I were talking about this exact thing yesterday at the game. Our offensive head coach, literally has almost ZERO clue what it takes to identify offensive talent.

 

[football karma]

Fair point, but most of these guys (Snyder, Faneca, etc) were specifically targeted and the top choice of at least one key decision maker on the team.

those kinds of signings work if each is the "missing piece" on the offensive line -- i.e. the other four guys are pretty good and you just need a capable vet who know what they are doing to hold down the final spot

they dont work if you have a lack of talent all around them

 

[Superfuzz]

Wow, that's putrid. Draft hasn't been much better. Rod, MM and Grimm def need to go. Whiz possibly as well.

 

[john h]

We're going to find out how serious he is about winning this off season. If he doesn't change the process the FO uses to evaluate talent then he doesn't care about winning no matter what he spews.

You can't continually miss out on the entire free agency process year after year and build a good team. It's all good to build the team through the draft as your main model but you need to supplement your roster at some point with veteran NFL players that can help the team. And the worse part is that the Cards give these guys good money so they don't only hurt the team on the field but also hurt them salary cap-wise. Brining in guys like Bradley, Heap and Adam Snyder shows that the talent evaluation process needs overhauled.

Bradley was an injured, mediocre at best, 4-3 MLB and they give him 30 mill. Snyder was the bottom of the barrel in a strong OG free agency class and he received, I think, 16 mill. Todd Heap.....well I don't even know why he was signed.

When your best free agent signing over the past few years is Jeff King, that should tell you something is very wrong. Actually I wouldn't even mind a handful of Jeff King type signings. At least you are bringing in a solid player that contributes to the team.

It almost seems like most of the time the Cards don't even have an idea of if a guy can play or fit their scheme. I remember a couple years ago begging for the Cards to bring in James Jones when he was FA. That wouldn't have been a big time signing but he would have been a perfect compliment, and deep threat the Cards were missing. Instead they were rumored to in on the heacase, clown Braylon Edwards.

This past year they didn't even look at guys like Davin Joseph, Ben Grubbs, or Carl Nicks and targeted Snyder. What kind of personell departement does that?

If Mike Bidwill goes with status quo, we know we have another run of a Bill Bidwill-type franchise to look forward to.

Look what a good QB is doing for Indy who was the worst team in the NFL last year and now with Andrew Luck is a respectable team. Look at what Manning has done for Denver a so so team. They may make the playoffs. Our QB play Sunday was the worst I have seen all year from any team. We were running the ball fairly well. Just think if our QB's could actually hit a receive what we might have done. We are perhaps a QB and a OT away from being able to compete in our division. We do not need to rebuild the entire team. We might need to rebuild the entire management structure if no other reason than to show the players we are not standing still in our tracks. The only coach I have much faith in is Horton. The rest IMHO are marginal or unacceptable. Some of the offensive calls yesterday were mind boggling. Our penalties are totally unacceptable.

I still think we have an acceptable defense if not a good one. If any of you watched the Pittsburgh game were you not impressed with their running game? Every runnier looked like a run away freight train. There ancient backup QB did enough to get the job done. He is sure better than anyone we have and probably cost 1/3 of what Kolb cost.

What are the odds we draft a QB this year in round 1? If not then what are the odds we sign an experienced FA QB? Do we do neither and plan on Kolb as our starter? I have no idea what our guys will do. I do not even know who our guys are.

 

[kerouac9]

With the new collective bargaining agreement I think that is more true than ever. With all the added salary cap room, the successive franchises can keep most of the talent they really want. Sometimes a team is loaded at a position and you can pick someone up, but generally you have to overpay to do it.

If you have a good unit, you can improve. If you have a mediocre team, one player (unless it's Peyton Manning) won't work miracles. Here I'm thinking of the difference between Buffalo acquiring Mario Williams and the Bears acquiring Julius Peppers.

I'm still waiting for all this "added salary cap room" to show up. The cap is predicted to be relatively flat again in 2013, which means that the Cards are going to have to shed some contracts if they're going to make a "big move."

 

[Dr. Jones]

this is the saddest and most onpoint post of the weekend. Ouchie and I were talking about this exact thing yesterday at the game. Our offensive head coach, literally has almost ZERO clue what it takes to identify offensive talent.

Ugh..... Totally depressing.