Just a bump in the road?? I Hope

[SunCityCarl]

Hmmm

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/coyotes/articles/2009/08/03/20090803gl-coyotes0803-ON.html

 

[MigratingOsprey]

just dirty pool by moyes and par for the course with that guy

reinsdorf is just doing what he has to do to maintain the position he's held all along - they can't negotiate in good faith unless they can negotiate in a confidential manner under the guidance of the court ........ when that was breached, if no outrage then why all the initial fussing

 

[Crazy Canuck]

This one is hilarious:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/nhl-asks-court-to-toss-balsillies-bid/article1245956/

The NHL that has approved at least 6 owners who have either gone to jail or who have cases pending that will put them in the big house, questioning Basille's integrity.

Don't agree with some of his tactics, but he has a true passion for the game, and Mr. Blackberry is a TRUE billionaire.

Don't be surprised folks, if at the end of day (early September) there is precisely one valid bid on the table, and it is Jim's.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

not going to happen - no matter how much you canadian folk want it to or how distorted the picture gets paintd up there

 

[Crazy Canuck]

not going to happen - no matter how much you canadian folk want it to or how distorted the picture gets paintd up there

Distort?

The one offer Arizona has for keeping the team there is from a guy (Reinsdorf) looking for $23M per year over 5 from the local taxpayers in subsidies; $15M from the league, and not to mention cutting off Gretsky from the $8M he is owed. And he retains the right to move the team after 5 years.

These are documented facts.

If people down there are willing to pay this in a virtually dead hockey market; go for it!

There is only one guy in the game with REAL cash, who is willing to spend it.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

no, they are leaked negotiations of which the city never voted on and were never agreed upon ... it's the leaking of this information that has moyes and his team facing contempt charges

also virtually dead is a bit overstated as well as it comes to the market

if all you've read is the canadian press then it's safe to say you know zero of what is actually going on here

this is a bankruptcy situation that involves the league and city as well - it will be settled in a way that will cause the least harm to all 3 parties

i find it interesting that 2 bids that are only $60M apart are somehow magically different in that one can pay off everyone regardless of secured/unsecured claims and one can't

as someone in montreal, if a habs fan, you should have a distaste about this guy as well after he leaked that the habs were going to be sold

 

[Crazy Canuck]

no, they are leaked negotiations of which the city never voted on and were never agreed upon ... it's the leaking of this information that has moyes and his team facing contempt charges

also virtually dead is a bit overstated as well as it comes to the market

if all you've read is the canadian press then it's safe to say you know zero of what is actually going on here

this is a bankruptcy situation that involves the league and city as well - it will be settled in a way that will cause the least harm to all 3 parties

i find it interesting that 2 bids that are only $60M apart are somehow magically different in that one can pay off everyone regardless of secured/unsecured claims and one can't

as someone in montreal, if a habs fan, you should have a distaste about this guy as well after he leaked that the habs were going to be sold[/QUOTE]

What bothered me was the owner denying it, and selling 7 months later.

And, I might add, that if your simply reading your local press, that are other sources on this issue.

The Reinsdorf so called offer is laughable. He's putting 2 to 3M of his own $$$ and expecting others to pay for an asset that he'll probably flip right out of the market within 5 years.

If the civic leaders in Glendale can get the community to sign on to the Reinsdorf deal, then fine. My view is that it is sending good $$$ after bad.

This is as you say... a bankruptcy, and it is judge's job to get the most for all concerned. The $60M difference you point out is quite relevant in the decision.

As said... I wouldn't be surprised if there is exactly one approved bid come September, and it will belong to Mr> Blackberry.

If it doesn't work, Balsallie will keep shopping.

His part of southern Ontario, a real hockey market, will get a team eventually.

 

[Mulli]

So, for the sake of discussion, what happens to the Coyote arena if they leave?

 

[Crazy Canuck]

So, for the sake of discussion, what happens to the Coyote arena if they leave?

How many "nostalgia" rock concerts can they book?

 

[PDXChris]

How many "nostalgia" rock concerts can they book?

and Disney on ice.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

So, for the sake of discussion, what happens to the Coyote arena if they leave?

the city of glendale would have to take on the expense of managing the arena - which would be very costly

not to mention the decrease in direct tax revenues from losing an anchor tenant, the decrease in revenues from the establishments around westgate on any of the nights they have games, the potential going out of business of places around westgate which would lead to further revenue loss for the city and the devaluation of the area that could inhibit the amount of development fees they could gain for future buildup in that area

also, the $60M difference really isn't that massive when you factor in that it will somehow magically pay gretzky all of his owed money (which has been backed off some) and moyes an additional $100M ..... the money really doesn't add up

also, blackbery needs to realize that he doesn't get to decide where the money goes all on his own

as for reinsdorf being a part of an ownership group - big deal - that is the emerging way in all of sports ownership

the fact remains that he has a proven track record of running professional teams in a very efficient manner and has produced winning results

by far the best option for glendale and for the NHL would be to have a lean and winning franchise in this major metropolitan region

 

[Crazy Canuck]

the city of glendale would have to take on the expense of managing the arena - which would be very costly

not to mention the decrease in direct tax revenues from losing an anchor tenant, the decrease in revenues from the establishments around westgate on any of the nights they have games, the potential going out of business of places around westgate which would lead to further revenue loss for the city and the devaluation of the area that could inhibit the amount of development fees they could gain for future buildup in that area

also, the $60M difference really isn't that massive when you factor in that it will somehow magically pay gretzky all of his owed money (which has been backed off some) and moyes an additional $100M ..... the money really doesn't add up

also, blackbery needs to realize that he doesn't get to decide where the money goes all on his own

as for reinsdorf being a part of an ownership group - big deal - that is the emerging way in all of sports ownership

the fact remains that he has a proven track record of running professional teams in a very efficient manner and has produced winning results

by far the best option for glendale and for the NHL would be to have a lean and winning franchise in this major metropolitan region

You are right... and if my grandma had wheels, she'd be a bus!

For hockey fans the only real difference between Misters' Blackberry and Reinsdorf is when they vacate the Valley of the Sun.

Blackberry at least has the honesty of saying, right now, in his favour.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

not true at all and you have zero evidence of that

just paranoia and conjecture

and btw, the largest SECURED creditor has now officially backed the reinsdorf bid

 

[Crazy Canuck]

not true at all and you have zero evidence of that

just paranoia and conjecture

and btw, the largest SECURED creditor has now officially backed the reinsdorf bid

The fact that so few are even taking the time to actually debate the issue, should give you some inkling as to the state of affairs.

For one, I couldn't care less if Bettman and the boys manage to keep the team, ever so temporarily in Arizona.

That this franchise is bleeding $$$ and that it will need public funds is not conjecture, it is all there in the Reinsdorf bid.

It is certainly speculation on my part that the team will eventually leave; it is, however, dreaming in technicolor to not face that likely outcome.

As for "paranoia", you might want to check the meaning of the term, as it has no relation to anything I've written.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

you make the mistake of taking a negotiation presented leaked by moyes (meaning it's the worst bit of info they could dig up) as being absolute fact

i also don't find it unlikely that this team will have a long and happy home in phoenix

they just need a competant owner and to win

as for the definition of paranoia

baseless or excessive suspicion of the motives of others.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/paranoia

yeah - none of that going on here at all

so when again is reinsdorf going to vacate after he purchases the team?

how many other franchises has he moved - i can only think of 1 and that has to deal with spring training

you know, when he brought the white sox to the west valley of a city where he owns a home ....... wonder what city that could be

 

[Crazy Canuck]

you make the mistake of taking a negotiation presented leaked by moyes (meaning it's the worst bit of info they could dig up) as being absolute fact

i also don't find it unlikely that this team will have a long and happy home in phoenix

they just need a competant owner and to win

as for the definition of paranoia



http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/paranoia

yeah - none of that going on here at all

so when again is reinsdorf going to vacate after he purchases the team?

how many other franchises has he moved - i can only think of 1 and that has to deal with spring training

you know, when he brought the white sox to the west valley of a city where he owns a home ....... wonder what city that could be

Yup! Reinsdorf just may attend his third hockey game in his 77 years of life.

As the leak shows, Reinsdorf would have the option of moving after 5 years.

And after 5 more years of bleeding millions, I don't doubt that he, or his partners, will take that as a pretty good idea.

Competent owner and win... how simple!

Don't see it, under any ownership that must, on the one hand, invest in a quality product and concern themselves with their bottom line.

You simply don't have enough "snow birds" to make it work.

How does Kansas City (fill in the blank) sound?

 

[MigratingOsprey]

When did the city council vote on this matter?

What are the full details?

What would trigger such an action that would allow him to break the lease?

Do you have any information other than what Moyes wants you to have? - of course you don't

reinsdorf has leverage and i'm sure he's going to stretch to see exactly where that will get him ....... the last time through the city had the leverage and ellman was leading the charge because he could care nothing about the long term health, he just wanted his development built and as soon as it was done he was able to get moyes to eat all the losses from the poorly put together hockey agreement

however, the minute you start taking a leaked document in a negotiation (key word right there - negotiation) that is presented by the side who has no interest in putting out a fair light, only an interest in trying to do any dirty tactic possible to try and get some money in his own pocket

the question you have to ask yourself is what didn't moyes leak? - what was there that didn't fit his purpose? ....... if you think moyes showed a full, fair and accurate portrayal than there is really no use to discuss anything further, because that really is crazy

This team has been horribly mismanaged - they could easily lower their operating expenses out of the top 5 league wide, a big part of that could be by disolving the side deals where moyes was pulling money at over market rates into his own ventures and how ellman was able to pretty much loot everyone

 

[Crazy Canuck]

I don't know what may have been left out, but the document made public was the one acquired by Moyes pertaining to the Reinsdorf negotiation.

If there are things more favourable to the Reinsdorf position, I'm sure we will hear, although why that counterpoint hasn't been made seems to give credence to the essence of the document. All we've heard from the Reinsdorf camp is this is "dirty pool".

If the community can come together and actually save this franchise; good on them.

But having seen franchises re-locate in the past, I'm inclined to believe the writing is on the wall for even the dimmest to see. If Reinsdorf gets the franchise, he'll operate for a few years, and then flip it to a new community.

It has been done in one guise or another before.

(Denver to New Jersey, Atlanta to Calgary, Quebec to Colorado, Winnipeg to Phoenix, etc., etc.)

 

[MigratingOsprey]

I don't know what may have been left out, but the document made public was the one acquired by Moyes pertaining to the Reinsdorf negotiation.

that part is incorrect - they had to share a lot of documents with moyes in part of the deposition - however, the negotiations are to be confidential as requested by reinsdorf and ordered by the court - the fact they are just showing a couple out of the much larger packet just continues to fit into the way moyes has approached this whole thing .... in a very underhanded way

If there are things more favourable to the Reinsdorf position, I'm sure we will hear, although why that counterpoint hasn't been made seems to give credence to the essence of the document. All we've heard from the Reinsdorf camp is this is "dirty pool".

Once again, the court has ordered this to be confidential. Since Reinsdorf and the city requested this it would be in a bad form for them to negotiate in the press. They basically don't need to say anything to anyone until an agreement is actually reached. Until that point why give updates. It's best to say silent until all the details are finished. This is common in most contractual situations.

But having seen franchises re-locate in the past, I'm inclined to believe the writing is on the wall for even the dimmest to see. If Reinsdorf gets the franchise, he'll operate for a few years, and then flip it to a new community.

It has been done in one guise or another before.

(Denver to New Jersey, Atlanta to Calgary, Quebec to Colorado, Winnipeg to Phoenix, etc., etc.)

However, unlike those places there is a viable arena in place, a very large marketplace and a lot of untapped capital.

Reinsdorf can have this team breaking even within 3 years by many estimates. Why would he get it to that point and flip it?

His past as an owner in two other sports do not show him to have that philosophy.

I have no doubt he will try to protect himself against the unforseen. He should do this as he has a fair amount of leverage right now. Having a hedge or some insurance doesn't mean you intend to have to use it. It's just a smart thing to do.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

You make compelling points, and you are quite right about there being no requirement to make any negotiations public at this point. And the Judge, from what I gather, has reasserted the need for privileged access to information and strict limits on dissemination.

The size of a metropolitan area is less relevant than the actual number of fans who are willing to displace themselves and pay premium prices to see the product on the ice.

Unless the community is willing to buy into the re-structuring and support the down years (and they've all be down years on the ice, so far) then the franchise will continue to bleed $$$.

I wish the community all the luck in world on this issue, but will remain skeptical as to the outcome.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

i can definitely understand the skepticism - but i think it gets overblown quite a bit

this team hasn't won a playoff series, in what, 20 years?!

since moyes took over this team has finished last pretty much every year

with that they are only a couple thousand seats short of selling out the building

if they can get a playoff team in here and provide the fans with at least any bit of confidence they can succeed

AZ is a tough sports market - even long standing teams like the suns don't draw when they aren't winning

however, once a winner catches on the bandwagon moves very fast

i'm not a coyotes fan, but go to probably 6-10 games a year ...... the atmosphere is pretty solid, the building is right up there with the xcel center as the best i've seen .... the product on the ice is schizo

one night I go and watch them beat the penguins, play the redwings tough, give my sharks fits and then get blown out by the lower tier teams

 

[Scott MS]

The fact that so few are even taking the time to actually debate the issue, should give you some inkling as to the state of affairs.

For one, I couldn't care less if Bettman and the boys manage to keep the team, ever so temporarily in Arizona.

That this franchise is bleeding $$$ and that it will need public funds is not conjecture, it is all there in the Reinsdorf bid.

It is certainly speculation on my part that the team will eventually leave; it is, however, dreaming in technicolor to not face that likely outcome.

As for "paranoia", you might want to check the meaning of the term, as it has no relation to anything I've written.

Bleeding money according to Moyes accounting. The Coyotes attendance is not the lowest in the league and the payroll is near the bottom. The reason why this team is losing millions of dollars is that the Coyotes are are loss center for Jerry Moyes. He set the team up with an overpriced air charter with Swift air and purchases unused office space at a massive premium. Get an owner in Glendale who manages the team's finances correctly and the losses many not be anywhere near $30M.

Of course, we may never know. The City of Glendale asked Moyes for financial statements that they would not provide. Financial statements that show the nonsense losses he's set up for himself.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

some interesting stuff in this filing

http://docs.bmcgroup.com/phoenixcoyotes/docs/azb_2-09-bk-9488_682_0.pdf

including some interesting e-mails and documentation that include everything from rodier telling moyes rep to move quickly because the NHL is ready to take action, the discussion of leaking potential concessions to chill bidding back during the initial sale negotiations and little fun things like how despite bleeding money the debtors representative fought to keep the team using a more expensive swift air as opposed to US Air

 

[chickenhead]

If the club were going to stay in Phoenix, Reinsdorf could actually be one of the better choices, if for no other reason than the strong Chicago-Phoenix connection. (I'm extrapolating that from that he might actually have more of a stake in the Valley than another out-of-town owner). Plus he has a vested interest in Glendale as the spring training home of the White Sox. Of course, the Chicago base, spring training and otherwise, is probably still the east valley, as has been that of the Coyotes. No need to argue that again since the arena ain't going anywhere. But this would at least be an improvement.

That said, it will be an ownership group, and multiple years of operating losses will make staying there difficult, minority partners or not. The fact of the matter is that Hamilton is a better location. But it's better than those of a number of NHL franchises. Still doesn't mean one will actually move. And the Leafs and Sabres haven't truly thrown their weight into the fray, either. The Leafs have one of the greatest strangleholds on a region in sports. I'm sure they'll have some thoughts in the end.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

Or the operating losses can be lowered when the team actually operates in an efficient manner with the sole purpose of being a profitable competative club and not merely a loss leader to spurn development, special interest deals and prop up other ventures

how much expense could be saved by having the coyotes go simply from being tied into all the bad deals that moyes brought them into for purely political and self interest? ...... is there a reason why they are paying 4x market for office rents? is there a reason why they charter with swift air for overmarket prices? - the guy doesn't make decisions on what is best for the franchise, it's what's best for his pockets

also a competative team will definitely increase the revenues

you get those two things working together and this team is making money in 3-5 years with the potential to keep that going for a long, long time