Just Say No To Smith

George O'Brien

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I have an oft stated aversion to drafting HS players and just because the Suns got lucky doesn't change my opinion. At the same time, if you have to gamble, it makes more sense to me to gamble on an inside guy than a small forward who can only play one position.

When I read scouting reports I focus on weaknesses and how serious they are. Smith seems to have more than his share:

NBADRAFT.NET:

- Still doesn’t show great court awareness during games as he tends to make costly mental mistakes (BTW this was in the sectionon "strengths")

Will need to improve on his overall ball handling … This will aid him in taking opposing players off the dribble … While he has three point range he lacks consistency … Will need to work on his shot selection as he can get a little too carried away … Lacks any real post up game to take advantage of mismatches … Mid range shooting remains questionable off the dribble … Has a tendency to get careless with the ball … Concentration level tends to vary as he can seem almost uninterested in the game … Defensively he needs to work on becoming more committed … Settles at times for taking outside shots instead of driving to the basket … Decision making has some questions surrounding it due to his average basketball awareness.

DRAFTCITY.COM

WEAKNESSES:

Raw. So very raw. Smith, as amazing a prospect he is, does not have anything amounting to a complete game (on offense or defense). While he can leap high, that is generally all he can do on offense. His handle is not yet proficient enough to be able to drive against the better defenders in the NBA. Nor is his outside shot consistent enough (some games he can get very hot though) to deserve respect from a smart defender who would rather lay off and prevent the drive, daring Smith to shoot. Most of his scoring comes near the basket where he can simply sky over the smaller defenders or from putbacks. He cannot yet create his own shot consistently. His defense, other than the eerie shotblocking ability, is atrocious. For all his speed and athleticism he doesn't have the lateral quickness to play the faster players on the perimeter. He is also very lax on defense, barely trying at times. He simply cannot be asked to cover any better than average offensive player on the perimeter. The key in his weaknesses can be summed up in one word really: consistency. He needs more consistency instead of simply the flashes that he does show.

In an draftcity article, they said:

"Josh Smith is someone that rises and falls every day depending on whom you are talking to. Sometimes he looks fantastic (like in Phoenix last week) and sometimes he is downright terrible, like he was today in Philly. His outside shot comes and goes, his ball-handling is not even close to being NBA caliber, and he is pretty clueless when it comes to playing defense. But once he starts throwing down dunks, you tend to forget about all of that. If he falls past #6, its concievable he slips all the way to #17. "

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Every review I've read said his ball handling "needs work" and he is not a very good defender. He is an inconsistent shooter and doesn't get the basket very well in game situations considering he is such a great dunker.

He may have great "upside", but this is the profile of a guy who will spend a long time at the end of the bench.
 

elindholm

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He may have great "upside", but this is the profile of a guy who will spend a long time at the end of the bench.

Only if he can find room next to Cabarkapa and Lampe. The end of the Suns bench is getting pretty crowded.

When the Suns drafted Stoudemire, my reaction was, "Hmm. I hope they know what they're doing." It turns out they did. Based on what I know, I wouldn't take Smith, but then I wouldn't have taken Stoudemire either.
 
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George O'Brien

George O'Brien

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elindholm said:
He may have great "upside", but this is the profile of a guy who will spend a long time at the end of the bench.

Only if he can find room next to Cabarkapa and Lampe. The end of the Suns bench is getting pretty crowded.

When the Suns drafted Stoudemire, my reaction was, "Hmm. I hope they know what they're doing." It turns out they did. Based on what I know, I wouldn't take Smith, but then I wouldn't have taken Stoudemire either.

I wasn't really high on Stoudemire, but at least he was an extremely strong inside player to go with his athleticism. I'm willing to be a bit more patient with a big man than a wing player.
 

slinslin

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And we all know that scouting reports are always true.

Besides that a year ago the guys who run draftcity.com were just diehard NBA fans who posted on message boards like everyone on this board.
 

Joe Mama

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elindholm said:
He may have great "upside", but this is the profile of a guy who will spend a long time at the end of the bench.

Only if he can find room next to Cabarkapa and Lampe. The end of the Suns bench is getting pretty crowded.

When the Suns drafted Stoudemire, my reaction was, "Hmm. I hope they know what they're doing." It turns out they did. Based on what I know, I wouldn't take Smith, but then I wouldn't have taken Stoudemire either.

This about pegs my stance on players like Josh Smith. He really wouldn't be my first choice because he is supposedly raw, but if the Suns take him I won't be disappointed. They definitely know more about him than any of us and any of these draft web sites. They also know more about the other players that will be available at #7.

Last night on the Arizona sports report, John Gambadoro said that he thinks the Suns want to take Iguodala, but he won't be there. He said he thinks they will keep the pick and take either Gordon or Harris, with a preference for Gordon. Here's the real stupid part. He also said that even if they take one of these guards they will still go after Steve Nash in free agency. Take it for what it's worth.

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scotsman13

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personally i think that the suns are going to take harris. he is the most ready of all the point guards in the draft. i beleive that the suns have heard that milos isnt going to be coming over this year. also for some that have questioned his weight he is already 10 lbs. heavier then what barbosa was when he came in.

also by drafting harris you can forget about signing nash (what do we need 4 points guards for) and somehow i think we will see a buy out on eisley if he isnt picked up in the expansion draft (hey i can hope right?)
 

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scotsman13 said:
personally i think that the suns are going to take harris. he is the most ready of all the point guards in the draft. i beleive that the suns have heard that milos isnt going to be coming over this year. also for some that have questioned his weight he is already 10 lbs. heavier then what barbosa was when he came in.

also by drafting harris you can forget about signing nash (what do we need 4 points guards for) and somehow i think we will see a buy out on eisley if he isnt picked up in the expansion draft (hey i can hope right?)

in one of the articles on Draftcity.com they said that Harris has really been struggling in workouts with the other top point guard prospects. Who knows?

I don't think it makes sense to side Steve Nash either, but that is what John Gambadoro was reporting. He said that even if they draft the point guard they will still go hard after Steve Nash in free agency. It just doesn't make any sense to me though.

Joe Mama
 
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George O'Brien

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Joe Mama said:
in one of the articles on Draftcity.com they said that Harris has really been struggling in workouts with the other top point guard prospects. Who knows?

I don't think it makes sense to side Steve Nash either, but that is what John Gambadoro was reporting. He said that even if they draft the point guard they will still go hard after Steve Nash in free agency. It just doesn't make any sense to me though.

Joe Mama

Obviously if the Suns pick someone they will know more than we do. At this point it is more a question of predicting who they will pick rather than recommending a pick. Of course if they had taken Boozer like I told them... :wave:

We've been hearing this about Harris for a few weeks now and everyone has his stock dropping. I still think he will go ahead of Nelson, but not by the six the eight slots most people expected.

BTW, I don't like the Nash deal, but the Suns do have a history of bringing back players who played for them before.
 

PhxGametime

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I pegged Devin Harris my top-rated PG months ago but I see Barbosa/Gaines in Harris - known as an excellent first step or the quickness/ability to drive but has struggled to penetrate on next level (atleast workouts thus far) and settles for 3PT shot. Without seeing Gordon much - with workouts, size, combine results, big game experience, etc - I might move Gordon a notch above. I do like Harris at #7 but Gordon might of took back top-rated PG selection.
 
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George O'Brien

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BbaLL_31 said:
I pegged Devin Harris my top-rated PG months ago but I see Barbosa/Gaines in Harris - known as an excellent first step or the quickness/ability to drive but has struggled to penetrate on next level (atleast workouts thus far) and settles for 3PT shot. Without seeing Gordon much - with workouts, size, combine results, big game experience, etc - I might move Gordon a notch above. I do like Harris at #7 but Gordon might of took back top-rated PG selection.

Everyone says that Gordon has been outstanding in workouts. A month ago Harris and Gordon were rated pretty closely, but now Gordon is considered sure to go in the top six while Harris looks more like #10 (Cleveland) and may lose out ot Jackson even there.
 

slinslin

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Harris has supposedly sucked in workouts although he avoided the other big names.

The Suns will have Gordon, Harris, Nelson and Livingston for a workout in Phoenix in the next couple of days. Should be interessting.

On Espn you can see highlights and summaries of all top prospects on espn-motion.

The clips of Josh Smith, Shaun Livingston, Andre Iguodala are really something to watch. Also JR Smith.
Telfair has a lot of flair about his game. ;)

Jameer Nelson from those clips looks like a shorter version of Stephon Marbury.
Devin Harris more like Steve Francis.

Also Josh Smith' highschool coach says that Smith is the most talented player he has ever coached and that must include Carmelo Anthony.
 

scotsman13

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George O'Brien said:
Obviously if the Suns pick someone they will know more than we do. At this point it is more a question of predicting who they will pick rather than recommending a pick. Of course if they had taken Boozer like I told them... :wave:


if they had taken boozer, he wouldnt have gotten any playing time behind amare. lets face facts, amare is better then boozer. amare and boozer are both power forwards. the suns believed and rightly so that amare was going to be a top teir player. so why pick another player who wont get playing time and wont be able to bring what your teams weakness are.
 

Dan H

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I honestly don't know why anyone is worried. The Suns' scouting department hasn't "missed" on a player in a decade - especially on picks in the top ten. The only time they've done poorly is when they've traded a pick - IE, Ron Artest for Luc Longley.
 

Joe Mama

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scotsman13 said:
if they had taken boozer, he wouldnt have gotten any playing time behind amare. lets face facts, amare is better then boozer. amare and boozer are both power forwards. the suns believed and rightly so that amare was going to be a top teir player. so why pick another player who wont get playing time and wont be able to bring what your teams weakness are.

I really don't want to change the entire subject of this thread, but this is just silly. Had he watched the Phoenix Suns in the last few years? They have no problem playing undersized centers and power forwards. Carlos Boozer might not have played as much as he has with the Cleveland Cavaliers, but he certainly wouldn't be buried on the Phoenix Suns bench. Also, Amare Stoudemire missed half of last season.

Now, back to the draft...

Joe Mama
 

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2003
- It is early to say but they missed on Josh Howard and Marquis Daniels when they picked Zarko it looks like.

2002
- Amare, great pick
- Tayshaun Prince, Carlos Boozer, Ronald Murray ( could possibly add John Salmons and Dan Gadzuric) when they picked Jacobsen.

2001
- Jarron Collins when they picked Alton Ford at #51 (granted not a big difference because Collins had a serious injury last season)

2000
- When they picked Jake Tsakalidis at #25 they probably should have traded up to get Magloire who was projected to go a little ahead of the Suns. But they also missed out on Michael Redd, Jake Voshkul, Eduardo Najera, Marko Jaric.

1999
- Shawn Marion was the best pick possible in that year although right now Ak47 or Artest might be better.

1998
- no picks

1997
- Missed out on Alvin Williams and Mark Blount. Even missed out on their own pick that they didn't keep Stephen Jackson at #43.

1996
- Missed out on Jermaine O'Neal when they took Nash at #15 when we had like Kevin Johnson and Jason Kidd already.
Also Zydrunas Ilgauskas at #20.
- - Missed out on Shandon Anderson and Malik Rose in the 2nd round for Ben Davis and Russ Millard.

1995
- Michael Finley , great pick

1994
- Wes Person probably as good as anyone else on the board
- Missed out on Voshon Lenard with one of their 2 picks at least
- Missed out on Zjelko Rebraca and Lawrence Funderburk with 2 of their 4 2nd round picks, at least those guys are still in the league

1993
- Took Malcom Mackey with the last first round pick and passed up on Nick Van Exel, Lucious Harris and Byron Russell.

1992
- Took Oliver Miller at #22 and missed out on Sprewell at #24,

This could go on and on but as far as I am concerned in all those years with all those picks the Suns actually only ended up twice (Amare, Finley) with the best player available or 3 times if you count Shawn Marion.

The Suns have been a very good drafting team over the years. But it is not like I will just say oh the Suns are such a good drafting team they will get the best player on the board.
 

PhxGametime

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The Suns didn't already have Jason Kidd before Steve Nash selection - Kidd was traded to Suns later on during season.
 

Dan H

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But it is not like I will just say oh the Suns are such a good drafting team they will get the best player on the board.

The Suns have done as well as any other team when picking in the bottom of the second round. If you'll read what I said, I said their record in the lottery was amazingly solid - the last "bad" lottery pick was Tim Perry, and he was still a relatively solid player.
 
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George O'Brien

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Interesting comments, although I'm not sure I entirely agree.

slinslin said:
2003
- It is early to say but they missed on Josh Howard and Marquis Daniels when they picked Zarko it looks like.

Everyone missed on those two guys. We'll see if a healthy Zarko can be a player.

2002
- Amare, great pick
- Tayshaun Prince, Carlos Boozer, Ronald Murray ( could possibly add John Salmons and Dan Gadzuric) when they picked Jacobsen.

I agree about Boozer and Prince. This is a classic example of taking a player based on need than on talent. I haven't given up on Jacobsen, but I expected more by now.

I'm not sure that anyone figured Murray to be a good player and it is not clear how good he is. Salmons is doing a bit better than Jacobsen, but is hardly a star. Gadzuric looks like a typical Eastern conference backup inside guy who would get killed out west.

2001
- Jarron Collins when they picked Alton Ford at #51 (granted not a big difference because Collins had a serious injury last season)

Ford was a classic second round "project" pick. He never seemed to have the drive to become a good player and has been a waste of some real talent.

2000
- When they picked Jake Tsakalidis at #25 they probably should have traded up to get Magloire who was projected to go a little ahead of the Suns. But they also missed out on Michael Redd, Jake Voshkul, Eduardo Najera, Marko Jaric.

I honestly believe that Tsakalidis' back injury killed his career with the Suns. I thought he showed some real promise as a defense oriented center before his injury, but was never the same afterward.

We have no reason to assume they had the ability to trade up for Magloire. It is unfair to criticize a team for not moving up unless there is good evidence that such a deal was feasible.

Redd was a major oddity of that draft. I used to go to Ohio State and watched his college career. I was stunned when he fell so low. That being said, he was a bit like Arenas in that he turned himself into a top player through hard work. Redd only averaged 5.8 minutes a game as a rookie and shot just 26.3% from the field. But he has worked himself into a legitimate star.

Who knows, maybe Casey can grow the same way. It would be nice.

1999
- Shawn Marion was the best pick possible in that year although right now Ak47 or Artest might be better.

Marion contributed almoste immediately and made the all star team. In any year there is always someon who shocks everyone and is better than expected, but it was excellent pick

1998
- no picks

1997
- Missed out on Alvin Williams and Mark Blount. Even missed out on their own pick that they didn't keep Stephen Jackson at #43.
Blount was a classic journeyman for the first several years of his career and Stephen Jackson almost defined the term. Both guys became pretty good through hard work, but there are many dozens of players with more talent that lacked the determination.
1996
- Missed out on Jermaine O'Neal when they took Nash at #15 when we had like Kevin Johnson and Jason Kidd already.
Also Zydrunas Ilgauskas at #20.
Nash was and is a fine player. Jermaine's talent wasn't even obvious to the team that took him.

Ilgauskas remains an enigma. He was drafted in '96 but did not start until '97. He had a pretty good rookie year, but then was all but completely lost the next two years and was very average the next season. Even now, he is more of an offensive threat than an especially good defender. He'll be a free agent next summer and it will be interesting to see what happens.

- - Missed out on Shandon Anderson and Malik Rose in the 2nd round for Ben Davis and Russ Millard.
The second round is a crap shoot. I'm not big on Anderson and it is easy to understand how people failed to pick up on with Rose due to his heigth. Davis was another classic case of good body and no drive.

1995
- Michael Finley , great pick

1994
- Wes Person probably as good as anyone else on the board
- Missed out on Voshon Lenard with one of their 2 picks at least
- Missed out on Zjelko Rebraca and Lawrence Funderburk with 2 of their 4 2nd round picks, at least those guys are still in the league
Rebraca and Funderburk may technically still be in the league, but they don't count if actually playing matters.
1993
- Took Malcom Mackey with the last first round pick and passed up on Nick Van Exel, Lucious Harris and Byron Russell.

This was the last pick of the first round and honestly he looked like a good prospect at 6'10". Mackey's final year at Georgia he averaged 15.6 ppg and 10.2 rpg.

1992
- Took Oliver Miller at #22 and missed out on Sprewell at #24,

Miller was very valuable for a few years. I'm not surprised the Suns did not take Sprewell that year. They needed an inside guy and no one really noticed Spree because his teammate, Robert Horry, got all the attention.

This could go on and on but as far as I am concerned in all those years with all those picks the Suns actually only ended up twice (Amare, Finley) with the best player available or 3 times if you count Shawn Marion.

The Suns have been a very good drafting team over the years. But it is not like I will just say oh the Suns are such a good drafting team they will get the best player on the board.

I think the measure of a good drafting team is more one of "hits and misses" than if they missed someone who later became really good. Look at teams that stay in the lottery year after year, most of them have more misses than hits because they are always trying to "hit a home run" and instead strikeout. The main exception is the Clippers who manage to lose their top players even when they draft well.

In any case, I wonder if there are any teams that do a better job on average than the Suns, considering their usual draft location. One problem is that the Suns have had a tendency to trade their young players away, only to watch them do well in other cities. That will kill good drafting every time.
 
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Joe Mama

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I agree, Yuma. When slin lists every good player the Phoenix Suns missed (even if some of his examples are big reaches) it doesn't look great, but I think it would look at whole lot better than most teams drafts if he did it for every other team in the NBA.

No team drafts perfectly every time. I believe the Phoenix Suns have done one of the best jobs so far.

Joe Mama
 
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George O'Brien

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If you could do tests on "heart", there would be a better way of picking the future stars. It is part of the reason I ge scared off of players with bad attitudes like Josh Smith and David Harrison. Talent is not enough, otherwise Alton Ford might be star. :trout:
 

slinslin

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George I don't understand something.

When you say Nash was a fine player and Jermaine's talent wasn't obvious what point are you trying to make? The Suns missed on Jermaine O'Neal. Obviously they didn't know what they had to.

And you call Blount a journeyman when he is still with the team that drafted him and has played only for 2 teams in 5 years.

Not to mention that a lot of the players the Suns drafted like Steve Nash , Stephen Jackson and Jayson Williams were given up on very quickly by the Suns.
 
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George O'Brien

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slinslin said:
George I don't understand something.

When you say Nash was a fine player and Jermaine's talent wasn't obvious what point are you trying to make? The Suns missed on Jermaine O'Neal. Obviously they didn't know what they had to.

And you call Blount a journeyman when he is still with the team that drafted him and has played only for 2 teams in 5 years.

Not to mention that a lot of the players the Suns drafted like Steve Nash , Stephen Jackson and Jayson Williams were given up on very quickly by the Suns.

I really like Blount because he has worked hard to become a decent player. But here is his history:

CAREER TRANSACTIONS
Drafted after sophomore season by the Seattle SuperSonics in the second round (55th overall) of the 1997 NBA Draft. ... Waived by the SuperSonics on 10/7/97. ... Played in the CBA with the Yakima Sun Kings (1997-98 ). ... Signed as a free agent by the L.A. Clippers on 1/22/99. ... Waived by the Clippers on 1/31/99. ... Signed as a free agent by the Boston Celtics on 8/1/00. ... Signed as a free agent by the Denver Nuggets on 8/8/02. ... Traded by the Nuggets with Mark Bryant to the Boston Celtics for Shammond Williams, a second-round draft pick in 2003 and cash on 2/20/03.

Jackson's career was even more arduous. He spent three years in the minors before coming up and did not show much until joining the Spurs.

CAREER TRANSACTIONS
Selected by the Phoenix Suns in the second round (43rd pick overall) of the 1997 NBA Draft....Signed as a free agent by the New Jersey Nets on 10/2/00....Signed as a free agent by the San Antonio Spurs on 8/2/01...Signed as a free agent by the Atlanta Hawks on 10/3/03.
 

Joe Mama

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George O'Brien said:
If you could do tests on "heart", there would be a better way of picking the future stars. It is part of the reason I ge scared off of players with bad attitudes like Josh Smith and David Harrison. Talent is not enough, otherwise Alton Ford might be star. :trout:

Is all this talk about Josh Smith's work ethic and attitude a result of the comments by the Charlotte general manager? Before that I had read in several places that Smith has a lot of heart, but sometimes he seemed to lack concentration.

Joe Mama
 
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