Keim's draft success

Gandhi

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I often read how people are complaining about Keim’s draft, and the lack of impact players he has found, so I decided to do a little study on the subject to get a better perspective. I always think it’s a very good idea to compare a decision maker to equals around the league to get a fair assessment basis. We all want 100% success rate from Keim, the coaches and everyone else, but that’s not realistic, and I think the criticism can become a bit unfair and hysterical without basing in on other things than your own wish.

For the analysis I made some statistic which I have attached in a Google Sheet where I hope you can see it if you like, and potentially use it for whatever you like. (Link to statistic)

Before getting into the analysis I just want to say that I am not very good at making and using statistics, so I will probably make mistakes. Please bear with me.

First some ground rules:

- The analysis includes every first- and second round draft pick in the NFL since (and including) 2013 where Keim became the general manager. I decided to not include picks from other rounds as well because, honestly, I often get the impression that many people don’t care that much about round three through seven.

- I have not included the 2018 draft picks in the analysis, because I deemed it would give a bit skewed result based on various other factors than the level of play (did the coaches’ preferences towards rookie play a part?)

- Obviously, some teams have changed general managers in the period, and their preferences and view on drafting is not identical. This presented a problem. I decided that the solution was to include all the former general managers as well and separate their draft selections from each other in the statistics. For example, the Bears drafted 10 first- and second round players (from now on just described as “players”) in the five drafts, but by two different general managers. In the analysis I have divided that into two drafts. This has the effect that sometimes there will be more than 32 parts in the equation and sometimes there will be fewer than 32, but I do believe it will also give a more fair result. Another effect is that the analysis will revolve around the general managers as baseline as opposed to the teams. I will note what elements goes into a certain result.

- The players are divided into three categories: “core players”, “backups” and “gone.” Core players are the players who played at least 12 games this season and at least 60% of the overall snaps in those games. Backups are anyone else. Gone are probably a self-explanatory category. Now, some of the players in the backup-category might actually be productive parts of a bigger rotation, but I had to make the cut somewhere.

- If a player has been injured this season, and thus doesn’t live up to the criteria for being in the core player-category, he must have played in at least eight of the games this season and at least 70% of the snaps in six of them to be in the core player-category. Otherwise I deem him unavailable, and thus a backup.

- If a player has sustained a season ending injury but played more than 60% of the snaps in the last five games the season before, and I can pretty much guarantee he would have played a lot this season as well (Travis Frederick, Keanu Neal and so on) they are a part of the core member-category. Le’Veon Bell with the Steelers is a unique case in this analysis (he has not been injured, but he hold out the entire season), and I have placed him in the core player-category, simply because he fulfills the criteria.

- Remember, my basic premise is the status of the player this season. He might have been a very good player for the team for four seasons, or anything in between, yet still doesn’t have the same role now. My counterargument is that if the draft pick was good enough, the player would be a core player right now.

---------------------

· As you can see, the Cardinals have used nine draft picks in the period. Three of them are now core players, three of them are backups and three of them are gone.

· The league average in the period has been 9.81 draft selections with 3.88 core players, 2.56 backups and 3.78 gone coming out of the picks.

· Four teams has had less picks than the Cardinals. Together they made 7.25 selections. Of those, the average core players picked were 3, the average backups picked were 0.75 and gone are 3.25 players.

· 23 teams had one or more picks than the Cardinals (eight of them had two or more picks more). Of those teams, the average of core players picked were 3.86 players, 2.5 of backups were picked and an average of four players are gone.

· Obviously Steve Keim has made all nine Cardinals picks. 15 other teams has had one general manager make all of their picks as well. Together those 15 teams had made 146 picks which is an average of 9.73 picks. Of those, 2.47 are core players, 4.56 are backups and 2.65 are gone.

· There are 10 teams where a general manager has been making the picks for four year. Those teams has made 98 picks. 3.6 of them has become core players. 2.6 are backups. 3.7 are gone.

· In all, seven teams has drafted less core players than the Cardinals in the period. Four teams has drafted the same amount. 20 teams has drafted more core players than the Cardinals. Of those teams, 14 had one more pick than the Cardinals, and six of them had two or more picks more than the Cardinals.

· To sum up, in the period, the Cardinals has had almost one pick less than the league average. They have selected almost one less core player, more backup players and almost one less players who are gone now. The average when looking at teams with the same amount of picks, and the same general manager making them, are more or less the same.

Now, let’s try to accept the premise that the game has changed over the, let’s say, last two years (which makes it the last three years in reality). This obviously comes with the big caveat that teams has had less time to decide whether they should part ways with any of their selections, and thus the result are probably a bit skewed.

· In the period, the Cardinals made three picks. Two of them are now core players while one is a backup.

· 24 other teams has had the same general manager make all the picks in this period. They made a total of 96 picks which is an average of four picks per team. Of those picks the average of core players are 2.2, the average of backups are 2.3 and the average of players gone are 0.45.

· 18 of the teams had one or more picks more than the Cardinals (three of them had more than one). Three teams had the same amount. Two teams had less. Of the three teams with the same amount, one of them has one starter and two backups, one of them has two starters and one backup, one of them has three backups.

-----------

As I said, I am absolutely sure that there are members on this board (and a lot of them) who are much better at deciphering statistic than I am, but to me, it looks like Steve Keim has done about average of all the general managers in the NFL – just like I and others have been saying multiple times. This is true no matter if you look at Keim’s entire tenure or just the last couple of years. I hope this exercise will show people, who constantly complain about Keim’s ability to draft, that the truth is another than their view, and maybe people can bring up this analysis as a help each time someone wrongly criticizes Keim.

I have really worked on the phrasing, so I hope I have made it possible to understand.
 

b8rtm8nn

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Good job, this takes a lot of work. Someone did an exercise once where they just drafted highest rated player (using some device draft rankings, which are themselves subjective) at each round for each team and found the success rate was pretty much close to what reality shows.

The draft really is a crap shoot. At least we haven’t passed on Suggs or Peterson yet :)
 

Dr. Jones

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I would say he is below average in rounds 1 and 2..... Above league average from rounds 3 to 5. And then league average at the end of the draft.

If we never find franchise level guys in the first 2 rounds we are hamstrung long term. Kirk and Budda are great and all, but we haven't seen a top NFL talent since Pat in 2011. If you look at the Saints, & Seahawks, they made the leap with all of these great drafts stacked back to back. 2010 to 2012 for the Seahawks is practically nuts IMO.
 

Finito

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I would say he is below average in rounds 1 and 2..... Above league average from rounds 3 to 5. And then league average at the end of the draft.

If we never find franchise level guys in the first 2 rounds we are hamstrung long term. Kirk and Budda are great and all, but we haven't seen a top NFL talent since Pat in 2011. If you look at the Saints, & Seahawks, they made the leap with all of these great drafts stacked back to back. 2010 to 2012 for the Seahawks is practically nuts IMO.


But when you find franchise guys in rounds 3-5 then it works out.

Honey Badger and David Johnson were arguably the best in the entire NFL at there positions before getting hurt. Now of course you can’t account for injuries no one can
 
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Gandhi

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I would say he is below average in rounds 1 and 2..... Above league average from rounds 3 to 5. And then league average at the end of the draft.

Well, I stand by my claim that he has done about average. As you can see, Keim has drafted almost an entire core player less than the average, but also nearly an entire player who are gone less than both the league average, and the average among general managers who has also made all the picks since 2013. I don’t know. Some are better than him, and some are worse.
 

Matt L

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Well, I stand by my claim that he has done about average. As you can see, Keim has drafted almost an entire core player less than the average, but also nearly an entire player who are gone less than both the league average, and the average among general managers who has also made all the picks since 2013. I don’t know. Some are better than him, and some are worse.

I disagree, not all core players are equal. I would say HB or DJ is Keim's best pick. Nobody he was picked has been on the same level as Fitz, Peterson, Campbell, Dansby, Dockett. I agree that the draft is a crapshoot but I would argue that his selections are worse than average
 
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Gandhi

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I disagree, not all core players are equal. I would say HB or DJ is Keim's best pick. Nobody he was picked has been on the same level as Fitz, Peterson, Campbell, Dansby, Dockett. I agree that the draft is a crapshoot but I would argue that his selections are worse than average

That is correct, and it is the biggest problem with an analysis like this, because everyone will disagree on who is the best core player, and who is the best draft pick no matter the parameters. Aaron Donald is one of the best defenders in the league, but he has still played less snaps than other very good draft picks from that draft like Jake Matthews, Taylor Lewan and Zack Martin, simply because those guys are offensive linemen, and thus play every offensive snap. Does that makes them better draft picks than Donald? We need context to determine things like that, and still it would be up for discussion instead of being facts, and thus it wouldn’t be relevant for an analysis based on statistic. Also, I would include John Brown among Keim’s best choices, but that is again a discussion.

Having said that, as I wrote I had to make the cut somewhere (because, honestly, I didn’t want to look up every draft pick made since 2013), so I guess it is not fair to judge anything about Keim on his success in the later rounds if the only “data” is arguments.

Again, I understand your view – and to some extent I agree with it – but it is simply not possible to create data from opinions.
 

Ohcrap75

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The criteria is too subjective to define in absolutes. But I thought you did a good great job explaining your process and how the results showed he isn't quite as bad as we depict him on this board! Nice work!
 

RugbyMuffin

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Draft Picks on the Roster:

1- David Johnson
2- Josh Rosen
3- Chase Edmonds
4- Christian Kirk
5- Mason Cole
6- Korey Cunningham
7- DJ Humphries
8- Robert Nkimdiche
9- Haason Reddick
10- Budda Baker
11- Rudy Ford
12- TJ Logan
13- Chad Williams
14- Will Holden
15- Brandon Williams

Sorry, I am not impressed. You have one player, with one great year under his name. The ones in italics are probably not going to make this year's roster. The rest are wanting to say the least. And no, undrafted free agents are not draft picks.

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oaken1

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I just want to see him keep more of the players we draft.
If they aint good enough to keep or dont fit the system well enough then he shouldnt draft them....

Oh...yeah
 

dscher

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The criteria is too subjective to define in absolutes. But I thought you did a good great job explaining your process and how the results showed he isn't quite as bad as we depict him on this board! Nice work!
Yup. Just like everything in life, it's mostly too hard to gauge objectively because of an extreme amount of variables throughout the years. Imo
 

kerouac9

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Pro-Football-Reference has an "AV" metric that attempts to quantify every player's value regardless of position — which would scale for being a fringe backup vs. Pro Bowler, potentially. I'd be interested to see how Keim would look when added into this metric.

Unfortunately, there just isn't (and likely never will be) a sample size big enough to judge these guys. I think you need 30-plus samples for one standard deviation, and it would take over a decade to do that even if you fold first- and second-round picks together.

I think that Keim is around league average, maybe slightly above-average, at the full jobs of being a general manager.
 

DVontel

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Draft Picks on the Roster:

1- David Johnson
2- Josh Rosen
3- Chase Edmonds
4- Christian Kirk
5- Mason Cole
6- Korey Cunningham
7- DJ Humphries
8- Robert Nkimdiche
9- Haason Reddick
10- Budda Baker
11- Rudy Ford
12- TJ Logan
13- Chad Williams
14- Will Holden
15- Brandon Williams

Sorry, I am not impressed. You have one player, with one great year under his name. The ones in italics are probably not going to make this year's roster. The rest are wanting to say the least. And no, undrafted free agents are not draft picks.

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Ones bolded I know for sure are getting a 2nd contract.
 

kerouac9

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Ones bolded I know for sure are getting a 2nd contract.

Cole is 100% getting a second contract

I’m glad y’all can see so far into the future. We’re you as sure about this as you were about DJ Swearinger and Tony Jefferson and Markus Golden at this point in their tenures here? What about Andre Ellington? John Brown?

Christian Kirk couldn’t make it though 16 games and y’all re all ready to back up the Brinks truck.
 

Timm Rosenbach

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This is all a bunch of nonsense. He has muffed some serious punts in the first round. He is only the GM because it would cost money to fire him. Don’t expect anything unconventional. Bosa, QW or trade down with a ransom from a desperate buffoon looking to make a name for himself as a GM
 

Cardsfaninlouky

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I often read how people are complaining about Keim’s draft, and the lack of impact players he has found, so I decided to do a little study on the subject to get a better perspective. I always think it’s a very good idea to compare a decision maker to equals around the league to get a fair assessment basis. We all want 100% success rate from Keim, the coaches and everyone else, but that’s not realistic, and I think the criticism can become a bit unfair and hysterical without basing in on other things than your own wish.

For the analysis I made some statistic which I have attached in a Google Sheet where I hope you can see it if you like, and potentially use it for whatever you like. (Link to statistic)

Before getting into the analysis I just want to say that I am not very good at making and using statistics, so I will probably make mistakes. Please bear with me.

First some ground rules:

- The analysis includes every first- and second round draft pick in the NFL since (and including) 2013 where Keim became the general manager. I decided to not include picks from other rounds as well because, honestly, I often get the impression that many people don’t care that much about round three through seven.

- I have not included the 2018 draft picks in the analysis, because I deemed it would give a bit skewed result based on various other factors than the level of play (did the coaches’ preferences towards rookie play a part?)

- Obviously, some teams have changed general managers in the period, and their preferences and view on drafting is not identical. This presented a problem. I decided that the solution was to include all the former general managers as well and separate their draft selections from each other in the statistics. For example, the Bears drafted 10 first- and second round players (from now on just described as “players”) in the five drafts, but by two different general managers. In the analysis I have divided that into two drafts. This has the effect that sometimes there will be more than 32 parts in the equation and sometimes there will be fewer than 32, but I do believe it will also give a more fair result. Another effect is that the analysis will revolve around the general managers as baseline as opposed to the teams. I will note what elements goes into a certain result.

- The players are divided into three categories: “core players”, “backups” and “gone.” Core players are the players who played at least 12 games this season and at least 60% of the overall snaps in those games. Backups are anyone else. Gone are probably a self-explanatory category. Now, some of the players in the backup-category might actually be productive parts of a bigger rotation, but I had to make the cut somewhere.

- If a player has been injured this season, and thus doesn’t live up to the criteria for being in the core player-category, he must have played in at least eight of the games this season and at least 70% of the snaps in six of them to be in the core player-category. Otherwise I deem him unavailable, and thus a backup.

- If a player has sustained a season ending injury but played more than 60% of the snaps in the last five games the season before, and I can pretty much guarantee he would have played a lot this season as well (Travis Frederick, Keanu Neal and so on) they are a part of the core member-category. Le’Veon Bell with the Steelers is a unique case in this analysis (he has not been injured, but he hold out the entire season), and I have placed him in the core player-category, simply because he fulfills the criteria.

- Remember, my basic premise is the status of the player this season. He might have been a very good player for the team for four seasons, or anything in between, yet still doesn’t have the same role now. My counterargument is that if the draft pick was good enough, the player would be a core player right now.

---------------------

· As you can see, the Cardinals have used nine draft picks in the period. Three of them are now core players, three of them are backups and three of them are gone.

· The league average in the period has been 9.81 draft selections with 3.88 core players, 2.56 backups and 3.78 gone coming out of the picks.

· Four teams has had less picks than the Cardinals. Together they made 7.25 selections. Of those, the average core players picked were 3, the average backups picked were 0.75 and gone are 3.25 players.

· 23 teams had one or more picks than the Cardinals (eight of them had two or more picks more). Of those teams, the average of core players picked were 3.86 players, 2.5 of backups were picked and an average of four players are gone.

· Obviously Steve Keim has made all nine Cardinals picks. 15 other teams has had one general manager make all of their picks as well. Together those 15 teams had made 146 picks which is an average of 9.73 picks. Of those, 2.47 are core players, 4.56 are backups and 2.65 are gone.

· There are 10 teams where a general manager has been making the picks for four year. Those teams has made 98 picks. 3.6 of them has become core players. 2.6 are backups. 3.7 are gone.

· In all, seven teams has drafted less core players than the Cardinals in the period. Four teams has drafted the same amount. 20 teams has drafted more core players than the Cardinals. Of those teams, 14 had one more pick than the Cardinals, and six of them had two or more picks more than the Cardinals.

· To sum up, in the period, the Cardinals has had almost one pick less than the league average. They have selected almost one less core player, more backup players and almost one less players who are gone now. The average when looking at teams with the same amount of picks, and the same general manager making them, are more or less the same.

Now, let’s try to accept the premise that the game has changed over the, let’s say, last two years (which makes it the last three years in reality). This obviously comes with the big caveat that teams has had less time to decide whether they should part ways with any of their selections, and thus the result are probably a bit skewed.

· In the period, the Cardinals made three picks. Two of them are now core players while one is a backup.

· 24 other teams has had the same general manager make all the picks in this period. They made a total of 96 picks which is an average of four picks per team. Of those picks the average of core players are 2.2, the average of backups are 2.3 and the average of players gone are 0.45.

· 18 of the teams had one or more picks more than the Cardinals (three of them had more than one). Three teams had the same amount. Two teams had less. Of the three teams with the same amount, one of them has one starter and two backups, one of them has two starters and one backup, one of them has three backups.

-----------

As I said, I am absolutely sure that there are members on this board (and a lot of them) who are much better at deciphering statistic than I am, but to me, it looks like Steve Keim has done about average of all the general managers in the NFL – just like I and others have been saying multiple times. This is true no matter if you look at Keim’s entire tenure or just the last couple of years. I hope this exercise will show people, who constantly complain about Keim’s ability to draft, that the truth is another than their view, and maybe people can bring up this analysis as a help each time someone wrongly criticizes Keim.

I have really worked on the phrasing, so I hope I have made it possible to understand.
He's had some good drafts, especially with BA but he's missed on a lot of picks. Maybe you can do some research on the misses lol? One draft right off the top I remember is the H. Reddick draft. Scratching my head there considering the players available. HR has some potential yes but..............................you get it. I hope he doesn't miss on this #1 pick but it's probably gonna be KM?
 
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Gandhi

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Draft Picks on the Roster:

1- David Johnson
2- Josh Rosen
3- Chase Edmonds
4- Christian Kirk
5- Mason Cole
6- Korey Cunningham
7- DJ Humphries
8- Robert Nkimdiche
9- Haason Reddick
10- Budda Baker
11- Rudy Ford
12- TJ Logan
13- Chad Williams
14- Will Holden
15- Brandon Williams

Sorry, I am not impressed. You have one player, with one great year under his name. The ones in italics are probably not going to make this year's roster. The rest are wanting to say the least. And no, undrafted free agents are not draft picks.


A lot of those were picked after the first two rounds, Rugby, and from your list I would argue that at least Budda Baker had a great year as well, and several of them have solid seasons. You could also include several picks that are not on the roster because of injuries. Also, undrafted free agents might not be draft picks, but they are certainly draft prospects scouted in depth by the entire personnel department. For this exercise I limited it to the first two rounds, but removing the undrafted guys if you include every draft prospect in your argument honestly seem like a way to enhance the criticism of Keim. Just like subjective guesswork about who will make the roster or not is, and the idea of the analysis is to not make things subjective.
 
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Gandhi

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Pro-Football-Reference has an "AV" metric that attempts to quantify every player's value regardless of position — which would scale for being a fringe backup vs. Pro Bowler, potentially. I'd be interested to see how Keim would look when added into this metric.

I would too.

Unfortunately, there just isn't (and likely never will be) a sample size big enough to judge these guys. I think you need 30-plus samples for one standard deviation, and it would take over a decade to do that even if you fold first- and second-round picks together.

You are right, but we both know that many members are criticizing the picks in the first- and second rounds (suggesting that it doesn’t matter if the Cards have a first round pick because Keim will blow it, and so on), so I don’t think it matters much with that big a database.

I think that Keim is around league average, maybe slightly above-average, at the full jobs of being a general manager.

He is, and several facts back it up.
 

Veer

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Keim's credit stemming from his early success with BA is finally gone. He let a strong roster fall apart, botched the opportunity to draft a young franchise QB when Palmer was still playing but already aging/declining/thinking publicly about retirement. Then he was involved in hiring Wilks/McCoy - a massive failure. But apart from the bad coaching, don't forget the flimsy roster Keim put together. Not even mentioning the DUI, which Keim only survived because of said early success and his good relationship with MB.

Right now, he should be on the shortest leash among all 32 GMs! That's why I think he will swing for the fences (Murray) and try to win back the credit he's lost with the ownership and fan base. A mediocre or safe pick - in terms of 1st overall pick - wouldn't be enough imo for Keim to survive another season.
 
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RugbyMuffin

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A lot of those were picked after the first two rounds, Rugby, and from your list I would argue that at least Budda Baker had a great year as well, and several of them have solid seasons. You could also include several picks that are not on the roster because of injuries. Also, undrafted free agents might not be draft picks, but they are certainly draft prospects scouted in depth by the entire personnel department. For this exercise I limited it to the first two rounds, but removing the undrafted guys if you include every draft prospect in your argument honestly seem like a way to enhance the criticism of Keim. Just like subjective guesswork about who will make the roster or not is, and the idea of the analysis is to not make things subjective.


Are we talking about drafted players or not ? If they are undrafted, then they are ..... not drafted. The draft is 7 rounds, if they are not picked in the seven rounds, then they are free agents, cut that any way you want it still is salami.

If you want to talk free agents and Keim, then that is where he has had some success. But that is not what this is about.

Not trying to enhance anything. To be fair, I do not have to enhance anything when it comes to the drafting under Keim, the results speak for themselves. The list of players he has drafted that are on this roster, are what they are.

I do agree the value set to said players is subjective. I am not sold on Budda Baker, or Christian Kirk. Both are undersized and both have shown SOME potential. Solid players are great and all, but that is not getting you very far. This team was 3-13, and an abysmal 3-13 at that, last year. There is a reason for it, and that starts with some pretty poor drafting, especially in the 1st round.

He has made bad picks and keeps making the SAME MISTAKES, year after year. This year's draft, I have zero faith in what he will do. It will be the standard 1st round bust, 2nd round solid player, two small school player picks, and a bunch of players at the end of the draft that do not make the roster.

Won't draft a linebacker that actually plays linebacker, won't pick a big bodied cornerback to play press coverage, and won't pick a player that has the size to play in the NFL, adding to the continuation of weak offensive linemen, and constantly hurt players (see your comment about players not being on the roster because of injury).

The Cardinals identity over the last few years can be defined with one word, HYPE. Kiem some how has this hype that follows him that he doesn't back up.

Again, the results speak for themselves. How he is even considered average, is beyond my reasoning ? Was last year being arrested, and having one of the worst professional sports teams I have ever seen or heard of ....... average ?

There is something Keim could do about this....prove me wrong. Which I am quite confident he will not since history is on my side.
 
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Kai

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Are we talking about drafted players or not ? If they are undrafted, then they are ..... not drafted. The draft is 7 rounds, if they are not picked in the seven rounds, then they are free agents, cut that any way you want it still is salami.

If you want to talk free agents and Keim, then that is where he has had some success. But that is not what this is about.

Not trying to enhance anything. To be fair, I do not have to enhance anything when it comes to the drafting under Keim, the results speak for themselves. The list of players he has drafted that are on this roster, are what they are.

I do agree the value set to said players is subjective. I am not sold on Budda Baker, or Christian Kirk. Both are undersized and both have shown SOME potential. Solid players are great and all, but that is not getting you very far. This team was 3-13, and an abysmal 3-13 at that, last year. There is a reason for it, and that starts with some pretty poor drafting, especially in the 1st round.

He has made bad picks and keeps making the SAME MISTAKES, year after year. This year's draft, I have zero faith in what he will do. It will be the standard 1st round bust, 2nd round solid player, two small school player picks, and a bunch of players at the end of the draft that do not make the roster.

Won't draft a linebacker that actually plays linebacker, won't pick a big bodied cornerback to play press coverage, and won't pick a player that has the size to play in the NFL, adding to the continuation of weak offensive linemen, and constantly hurt players (see your comment about players not being on the roster because of injury).

The Cardinals identity over the last few years can be defined with one word, HYPE. Kiem some how has this hype that follows him that he doesn't back up.

Again, the results speak for themselves. How he is even considered average, is beyond my reasoning ? Was last year being arrested, and having one of the worst professional sports teams I have ever seen or heard of ....... average ?

There is something Keim could do about this....prove me wrong. Which I am quite confident he will not since history is on my side.

Thank you
This is what everyone on this forum needs to hear and frankly so does the Cardinals front office and management
 
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