Kyler Murray, you will become a Cardinal. It is....

[Chopper0080]

I would pick one who, I don't know, attempted a similar number of passes in a season.

Fun fact: Kyler Murray attempted 398 passes last year vs. 343 in his TWO seasons at VT.

So they are both brown skinned and can run really fast. One (Murray) threw nearly as many passes as Andrew Luck did his last season in college, and the other (Vick) threw as many as Eric Crouch did his last season.

Vick is comparable to Crouch

Murray is comparable to Luck

in terms of passing attempts.

You can't compare Murray to a prospect who is 6'4 240 lbs. I can agree that Murray is more comparable to Manziel which has been tossed around though I think it undersells how fast Murray is said to be.

 

[Chopper0080]

Manziel is a better comp, but their passing style is every different. One was disciplined and stayed in the pocket, while the other left the pocket and heaved prayers to Evans all of the time.

I don't see taking advantage of a size mismatch as a big difference from taking advantage of a speed difference.

 

[Krangodnzr]

You can't compare Murray to a prospect who is 6'4 240 lbs. I can agree that Murray is more comparable to Manziel which has been tossed around though I think it undersells how fast Murray is said to be.

I'm comparing raw passing numbers just to demonstrate how lazy of a comparison Vick is to Murray.

I watched A LOT of Michael Vick in college because he was basically on TV every Saturday, and he was never even close to the passer than Murray was. He was much more like Eric Crouch than like Manziel.

If you crack open the TAMU tape of Manziel, you see a VERY undisciplined passer. Murray is not an undisciplined passer. He's much more of a take what the defense gives kind of a QB. When he runs, he consistently looks to slide or get out of bounds. Manziel didn't do this either, he ran with reckless abandon.

 

[Chopper0080]

I differ on what I perceive as a risk.

I don't agree on the character risks that you throw out because I can easily explain those away.

I do agree on the lack of sample size and his lack of competition. The Big 12 just doesn't play defense anymore.

Agree to disagree it is.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I don't see taking advantage of a size mismatch as a big difference from taking advantage of a speed difference.

Maybe I'm dense here, but I don't understand what you are getting at.

But to expand on my point, what I see of Murray is that he could be a more disciplined version of Vick in the NFL. I think he can be a better passer than Vick was in the NFL. And I know I've said they are a ridiculous comparison, but what I'm referring to is what Vick became vs. what Vick was coming out.

At Murray's best, he is going to require MORE defenders to focus on him. And I'm not talking about rushers, I'm talking about a spy that plays a shallow zone, spying on Murray. That means he will have one less pass defender to count for, and that spy probably won't effectively be able to stop him from running either.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Let's compare

5'11 207
5'10 207

9 7/8
9 1/2

4.6
4.4 (since he didn't run we will guess)

26 games started
17 games started

595 completed
350 completed

863 attempts
519 attempts

68.9 comp %
67.4 comp %

7820 yards passing
5406 yards passing

63 TDs to 22 Ints
50 TDs to 14 Ints

345 rushing attempts
207 rushing attempts

2169 yards and 30 TDs rushing
1478 yards and 13 TDs rushing

Not a terrible comp. We can all agree Murray is not the train wreck of a person that Manziel was.

And like I said, numbers don't really paint the whole picture. You didn't see Murray heaving prayers to Mike Evans on the regular like you did with Manziel.

What's funny is that Manziel was running Kliff's offense at the time, so it gives you and idea of some of the things Murray might do, though there are quite a few variables to account for.

 

[GuernseyCard]

Maybe I'm dense here, but I don't understand what you are getting at.

But to expand on my point, what I see of Murray is that he could be a more disciplined version of Vick in the NFL. I think he can be a better passer than Vick was in the NFL. And I know I've said they are a ridiculous comparison, but what I'm referring to is what Vick became vs. what Vick was coming out.

At Murray's best, he is going to require MORE defenders to focus on him. And I'm not talking about rushers, I'm talking about a spy that plays a shallow zone, spying on Murray. That means he will have one less pass defender to count for, and that spy probably won't effectively be able to stop him from running either.

There was a spy on Vick his whole career in the NFL.

 

[Krangodnzr]

There was a spy on Vick his whole career in the NFL.

Yep. And it opened up extra opportunities for him. That's my point.

Murray is a much more advanced passer than Vick was. Like I pointed out, Murray threw more passes in one season than Vick did in his college career.

 

[GuernseyCard]

And like I said, numbers don't really paint the whole picture. You didn't see Murray heaving prayers to Mike Evans on the regular like you did with Manziel.

What's funny is that Manziel was running Kliff's offense at the time, so it gives you and idea of some of the things Murray might do, though there are quite a few variables to account for.

Manziel's 5tds , 464 yds against #1 Alabama was not simply a result of sandlot type ball.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Manziel's 5tds , 464 yds against #1 Alabama was not simply a result of sandlot type ball.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

Lots of sandlot football there.

One read and run was what he did throughout that game. And Kingsbury made it easy by calling a VERY good game.

 

[Chopper0080]

Maybe I'm dense here, but I don't understand what you are getting at.

But to expand on my point, what I see of Murray is that he could be a more disciplined version of Vick in the NFL. I think he can be a better passer than Vick was in the NFL. And I know I've said they are a ridiculous comparison, but what I'm referring to is what Vick became vs. what Vick was coming out.

At Murray's best, he is going to require MORE defenders to focus on him. And I'm not talking about rushers, I'm talking about a spy that plays a shallow zone, spying on Murray. That means he will have one less pass defender to count for, and that spy probably won't effectively be able to stop him from running either.

Manziel had 6'5 Mike Evans. Murray has 4.3 speed Marquise Brown. One you throw the ball up in the air and he jumps and gets it. The other you throw the ball down the field for and he runs and gets it. Each takes advantage of the guy he has.

 

[SeattleCard]

It was his destiny.

 

[Chopper0080]

Here is where I get stuck...what is the path the Murray has to take to be successful?

He is going to have to learn how to move within the pocket to create sight lines. All short QBs have to learn this to be successful in the NFL.

He is going to need a ton of experience having only 17 college starts and attempting 519 passes. Sam Darnold was considered raw and he started 27 games and attempted 846 passes. Josh Rosen had 30 starts and 1170 attempts when he was drafted and was almost a year younger.

He is going to have to learn to overcome subpar talent. He has only had to do that once while he was at Oklahoma, and it wasn't great. Yes, it was only one game, but that is going to be his every day life with AZ. All QBs from major colleges have to learn this.

He is going to have to figure out how to not take hits as he has a smaller build. Russ and Brees are both really good at this which is why they stay healthy. RGIII was not.

He is going to have to adjust to the NFL. Every young QB has to. It is a different animal.

He is going to have to deal with the pressure of being a number one pick and the QB of a franchise. He can't have anymore Dan Patrick interviews or refuse to do all of the work.

These are the hurdles. And they are going to take a ton of work to overcome because he is not benefited with greater physical gifts or a ton of experience. I just have a hard time seeing the guy who quit on Texas A&M and the Oakland A's and flubbed his big interview on the Dan Patrick show as the guy who is going to put in that work.

Again...I haven't seen anything to change my mind in this matter.